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Mike,
He is less than God only because He was “of” God and not in any other way.Quote Why on earth would we show God's servant an EQUAL amount of honor as we show God Almighty Himself? Did King David's servants receive an EQUAL amount of honor as King David did?
First off, we aren't talking about 'earthly' servants. Secondly, the 'expression' of someone is always subject to the someone expressing the 'expression.' Do you not control what you express or is your expression acting on its own?Quote Could you show me a scripture that confirms YOUR perspective? Could you show a scripture that implies they are the same being? You know well that God created through His Son but says He was alone when He created.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2010,23:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,14:58) Jesus spoke from the viewpoint of being a man in His humanity and from the viewpoint of being God OF God in His divinity.
Hi Kathi,To which scripture do you refer where Jesus spoke as “God OF God”?
mike
Mike,
There are many…
I am the Light of the world.
I am the bread that came down from heaven.
I am the way, the truth and the life.
Before Abraham was born, I am.
Your sins are forgiven…
I am the resurrection and the life…
No one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father…
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.These are just some off the top of my head.
The humanity of Jesus wouldn't say such lofty things.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,15:36) Mike,
He is less than God only because He was “of” God and not in any other way.
And you know this………how?Kathi:
Quote First off, we aren't talking about 'earthly' servants.
You are using this “heaven/earth” contrast quite frequently.
Do you know that the things of God on earth are mere copies of how they are in heaven? Why would “father/son” and “servant/God” mean anything different here than there when the One who knows everything about us and taught us language in the first place knew how we would understand those words?Kathi:
Quote You know well that God created through His Son but says He was alone when He created.
He also created me through my parents, but they are not credited with the “creation”. I don't know how to understand the “through Jesus”………but I DO know to believe God. And if God said He created ALONE, then I know to believe Him. And that's right, I said “believe HIM”, not “believe THEM”.mike
Mike,
Quote And you know this………how? The word was God, perfect beget perfect, not less than. He is an image, an exact representation of His nature, not sort of an image and not less than His nature.
Quote You are using this “heaven/earth” contrast quite frequently. Do you know that the things of God on earth are mere copies of how they are in heaven? Why would “father/son” and “servant/God” mean anything different here than there when the One who knows everything about us and taught us language in the first place knew how we would understand those words? Do we have streets of gold? The father/son, servant/God relationship is similar but the divine Father/Son, Servant/God relationship is not limited to be in the exact same manner as the earthly father/son, servant/God relationship. Like the streets in heaven are not exactly like the streets on earth.
Quote He also created me through my parents, but they are not credited with the “creation”. You don't seem to understand that there are two completely different types of creating. One…creating from the plan of God and not existing material and the other creating from existing material, that which is already created, the sperm and the egg, for instance. In the beginning, all things that were made were from original material, there were no trees before the first trees, there were no fish before the first fish, etc. You on the other hand had plenty of humans existing before your parents were even around.
Quote don't know how to understand the “through Jesus”………but I DO know to believe God. And if God said He created ALONE, then I know to believe Him. And that's right, I said “believe HIM”, not “believe THEM”. So you can see that a silent God and an expressive God is one being yet at the same time, His expression(Word) is subject to Him and eventually sits at His right hand. Nevertheless, the Expression of God is part of God.
Isaiah 55:11 NASB
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.Quote From Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible regarding this verse:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth,…. My good word, as the Targum; this may either be understood of Christ, the eternal Word, who is called the Word of God, and may be said to go forth out of his mouth, being spoken of by all his holy prophets, since the world began, whose coming was like the rain or snow, Hosea 6:3, he came from heaven, from his Father there, and as a free gift of his, and in consequence of a decree, as the rain does; the manner of his coming, like that, was suddenly, gratefully, and with great efficacy, watering his people with his grace, through the ministry of the word, and making them fruitful; and though he returned to heaven again, yet not empty, without fruit and effect; he produced a large harvest of souls, and procured all blessings of grace for them, and accomplished the whole will and pleasure of God, in effecting the salvation of his people; and the pleasure of the Lord prospered in his hand: or else it may be interpreted of God's word of promise; the promises are made in heaven, and come from thence as the rain and snow do; are the gifts of God's grace; are very refreshing and reviving, as rain to the earth; and are always effectual, being yea and amen in Christ Jesus; and being made good, fulfil purposes, or the good will and pleasure of God; particularly promises concerning Christ, pardon and peace through him; such as are given forth in this chapter: or rather it may be meant of the word of the Gospel, which is of God; comes from heaven; is a blessing grace; falls according to divine direction here and there; tarries not for the expectations, desires, or deserts of men; falls in great plenty; and is a blessing wherever it comes: it is the means of softening the hard hearts of men; of cooling the conscience set on fire by the law, and allaying the heat of divine wrath there; and of refreshing and reviving drooping, disconsolate, and weary souls: it is the means of the first buddings of grace in the Lord's people, and of the larger exercises and flourishings of it, and of all fruitfulness in good works: it is productive of seed to Christ the sower, and fruit to his ministers who labour under him, and of bread to the eater, the believer, whom it furnishes with the bread of life to feed upon by faith:it shall not return to me void; it is accompanied with a divine energy; it is the power of God to salvation:
but it shall accomplish that which I please; in the conversion of sinners, and comfort of saints:
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it: whether it be the savour of life unto life, or the savour of death unto death; whether for the quickening of sinners, and reviving of saints; or whether for the hardening of men, and leaving them without excuse to perish in their sins, both in the Jewish and Gentile world.
from: http://bible.cc/isaiah/55-11.htm
With that I will say that it is time to take the toothpicks from holding open my eyelids. I enjoyed our discussion. Good night
-'your friend'
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,19:31) Irene and Pierre,
The angels were told to worship the Son…right?
And we are told by Jesus, Himself, to:John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
to honor means:
to estimate, fix the value
for the value of something belonging to one's self
to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateSo I believe that we are to fix the value of the Son to be the same as the value of the Father. I believe that the Son and the Spirit are merely the extended expression of the Father. The Son is all the Father is except that He is from the Father and not the Father whom He is from, as an extented expression (Word) of the Father's nature, character, wisdom and power, in the person of His Son. So if you can worship the Father's nature, character, wisdom and power then you are also worshiping the Son's nature, character, wisdom, and power because they are the same.
I don't know how you can worship one part of God and not the other parts of Him. It is like me inviting you over for dinner but your spirit isn't invited and neither is your word. How do you come without your spirit and what purpose would there be to not allow you to express yourself with your word?
Do you really think that I am worshiping an idol if I worship the Father in His fullness? Because if I take away the Son and the Spirit from the Father, I worship only in part.So, if I have you for dinner apart from your spirit and word, then I really don't have the full YOU over, do I? Have you heard the expression, “he wasn't all there?” I really don't think that you can separate the Spirit and the Son from God the Father.
Kathito give Honor to some body a king or a judge or a representative of government ,would to recognize them as such first,
so if you recognize Christ the son of God ,and honor him,to me it obvious you also recognize the one he has send God his father ,is this not what Jesus was teaching while he was on earth among us???,
just as you would in a country recognize the ambassador of another this would mean that you also recognize the king of that country what that ambassador represent,is it not ?
would you think that it would be wise to recognize the ambassador as the real king,would his king not call him back , to show who is in power ??yes indeed
Paul say to a king a king honor,to a judge a judge honor,to a official a official honor,ect ..
so to the son an son honor to the father and God a god honor.
Pierre
Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,10:47) Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
Kathiwhat is that
you do not make sense,
could spell it out so i can understand what you are saying???
Pierre
Kathi! Jehovah God is LORD and Jesus is Lord, there is a difference. Also I believe that Jehovah God is greater then Jesus by Jesus own word, so to honor Him is good , but not to worship Him. Only Jehovah God we should worship……
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
and
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Also the second commandment and the first great commandment is to Love God with all of your heart and with all of your soul, and with all of your mind. That is what to worship only Jehovah God.
Mike! I would never let anyone tell me whazt I know for sure, and change my mind. No way Ho sah…..
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah? Think about it, there are 10 commandments. Which one tells us to honor the Messiah? Was it not important? All the prophets point towards Him.Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,13:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,10:47) Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
Kathiwhat is that
you do not make sense,
could spell it out so i can understand what you are saying???
Pierre
Pierre,
Which part confuses you?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,14:13) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,13:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,10:47) Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
Kathiwhat is that
you do not make sense,
could spell it out so i can understand what you are saying???
Pierre
Pierre,
Which part confuses you?
KathiHe(Jesus) is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
this is what is part of your desire to make the son and the father equal;
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,07:12) Hi Irene,
If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah? Think about it, there are 10 commandments. Which one tells us to honor the Messiah? Was it not important? All the prophets point towards Him.
What do the prophets have to do with worship of Almuighty God? Jesus is not Almighty God, He is Mighty God and our Messiah, our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. But I don't believe for a minute that we should worship Him. A commandment to honor the Messih? I don't know of any, and neither does Georg, To honior Him does not mean to worship Him at all. We honor Him because He is our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. You are dead wrong…..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2010,08:28) Mike,
This sorta sounds like you:Acts 18:12-13
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
KJV What do you think Paul was teaching that made them make that conclusion?
Hi Kathi,These are words from Paul's defense of himself against the Jewish leaders:
Acts 24:14 CEV
14I admit that their leaders think that the Lord's Way which I follow is based on wrong beliefs. But I still worship the same God that my ancestors worshiped. And I believe everything written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets.God said to worship ONLY Jehovah Almighty. Jesus said to worship ONLY Jehovah Almighty. Paul said he worshipped ONLY Jehovah Almighty………….even after Jesus was at God's right hand in heaven and had been given all power and authority.
What will it take my friend?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Oct. 20 2010,06:23) Mike! I would never let anyone tell me whazt I know for sure, and change my mind. No way Ho sah…..
I should have known better Irene. It's just that most translations like to render the bowing down to Jesus as “worship” when in fact it was “doing obeisance”. It is the same Greek word used for both, so naturally the trinitarian sponsored translations insert “worship”……..but only in the cases that involve Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2010,11:44) Quote (Baker @ Oct. 20 2010,06:23) Mike! I would never let anyone tell me whazt I know for sure, and change my mind. No way Ho sah…..
I should have known better Irene. It's just that most translations like to render the bowing down to Jesus as “worship” when in fact it was “doing obeisance”. It is the same Greek word used for both, so naturally the trinitarian sponsored translations insert “worship”……..but only in the cases that involve Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
That's good to know, and thank you. We do have a Hebrew and Greek dictionary, but it is hard for me to use. My English language only goes so far since coming from Germany. We also have a German Bible and at times I do compare. It is mostly in line with the Rye Bible study of KJ and the NKJ version of the Bible…..That is not a surprise that the Trinitarians want to worship Jesus because of the trinity. The worship three in one…..
Peace and Love IreneHi Irene,
I notice you sometimes use Blue Letter……..me too. But I find NETBible is so much easier and better and faster. You should check it out. Kathi and Keith use it also. Here's the address:
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luk&chapter=17&verse=21
At the top left of the page, you can arrow to any book, chapter and verse in the Bible. It gives 9 translations, much useful info, and you can hold your cursor over the blue Strong numbers below the KJV version to get a quick definition of the word – or click on them to get much more info on the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word used. It will also list all the times that word is used so you can compare how it is translated in different scriptures.
But this is the best part: It shows the Greek Septuagint translation of the original Hebrew or Aramaic in the OT scriptures.
Anyway, I think it is a great tool.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 19 2010,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2010,08:28) Mike,
This sorta sounds like you:Acts 18:12-13
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
KJV What do you think Paul was teaching that made them make that conclusion?
Hi Kathi,These are words from Paul's defense of himself against the Jewish leaders:
Acts 24:14 CEV
14I admit that their leaders think that the Lord's Way which I follow is based on wrong beliefs. But I still worship the same God that my ancestors worshiped. And I believe everything written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets.God said to worship ONLY Jehovah Almighty. Jesus said to worship ONLY Jehovah Almighty. Paul said he worshipped ONLY Jehovah Almighty………….even after Jesus was at God's right hand in heaven and had been given all power and authority.
What will it take my friend?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
We all worship the Father in part because we do not see Him as He fully is. When Paul said those words he had more understanding of God than before He met Jesus. Worshiping Jesus only adds to the worship of God, it does not take anything away from the Father.Don't you think it is strange that the ten commandments say nothing specific about the Messiah. Surely God would know that His Son would be worshiped by many in the future. If the first commandment doesn't include the Son, why wasn't there a commandment to tell us to honor the Messiah, there is about honoring parents and the Sabbath day. I mean, we can't even get to the Father apart from the Messiah. He is much more important to us than even our parents.
Can you honestly say that to worship the Father together with the Son and Holy Spirit is the same as worshiping an idol God? Can the Son and Holy Spirit be idols. Does it ever say that anywhere specifically? Are we ever warned about worshiping the Son and Holy Spirit, using those names?
It is clear that the early church father's worshiped the Son, I have shown you this, even Eusebius.
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 19 2010,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,07:12) Hi Irene,
If you don't think that Jesus is part of the God of commandment one, then tell me what commandment has you honoring the Messiah? Think about it, there are 10 commandments. Which one tells us to honor the Messiah? Was it not important? All the prophets point towards Him.
What do the prophets have to do with worship of Almuighty God? Jesus is not Almighty God, He is Mighty God and our Messiah, our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. But I don't believe for a minute that we should worship Him. A commandment to honor the Messih? I don't know of any, and neither does Georg, To honior Him does not mean to worship Him at all. We honor Him because He is our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. You are dead wrong…..
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Do you think that worshiping the Father with His Spirit and His Son is idol worship? Where does it say that?Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,17:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,14:13) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 19 2010,13:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2010,10:47) Pierre,
The Son is Lord and is also called God, so is the Father called Lord and God. He is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
Kathiwhat is that
you do not make sense,
could spell it out so i can understand what you are saying???
Pierre
Pierre,
Which part confuses you?
KathiHe(Jesus) is everything the Father is except He was from Him.
this is what is part of your desire to make the son and the father equal;
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Like begets like and when the begetter is perfect what else would He begat but perfect?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2010,13:15) Hi Irene, I notice you sometimes use Blue Letter……..me too. But I find NETBible is so much easier and better and faster. You should check it out. Kathi and Keith use it also. Here's the address:
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luk&chapter=17&verse=21
At the top left of the page, you can arrow to any book, chapter and verse in the Bible. It gives 9 translations, much useful info, and you can hold your cursor over the blue Strong numbers below the KJV version to get a quick definition of the word – or click on them to get much more info on the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word used. It will also list all the times that word is used so you can compare how it is translated in different scriptures.
But this is the best part: It shows the Greek Septuagint translation of the original Hebrew or Aramaic in the OT scriptures.
Anyway, I think it is a great tool.
peace and love,
mike
Thank you Mikw, I will try that……Irene
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