- This topic has 2,141 replies, 60 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
So what are you saying Pierre? That the new heaven and earth have arrived, so therefore we can ignore what was written in the Law and worship God's Son along with Him?
I know that can't be what you mean, but I'm not sure what it is you are saying here.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,19:52) Hi Kathi, Here's what we know so far. Scripture SPECIFICALLY says to worship Jehovah God ONLY. It's is said many time in the OT, and Jesus quotes those same words in the NT. You think the NT sheds light on some of what was said and done in the OT. I couldn't agree more. But the NT NEVER nullifies anything the OT says. Jesus said he came not to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them. (Matt 5:17) He also said:
Luke 16:17 NIV
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.Matthew 5:18 NIV
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Jesus seems pretty adamant that the Law is “written in stone”. And according to the Law, who are we to worship?
mike
Hi Mike,
You know that I believe that Jesus was known by the name Jehovah in the OT and called God by the Father in the NT. So, both the Father and the Son are called Jehovah and God. So if we worship the Father and the Son, we do worship Jehovah God alone. One is Jehovah God, the Father and one is Jehovah God the Son from the Father.Oh brother.
Okay Kathi, can you post a specific scripture that says to worship only Jehovah that you think includes “Jehovah the Son”?
Oh, and while your at it, maybe you could find a scripture that says Jehovah our God is TWO, instead of ONE.
You have passed into the “Kangaroo Jack” realm Kathi……..otherwise known as the “Twilight Zone”.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2010,19:19) So what are you saying Pierre? That the new heaven and earth have arrived, so therefore we can ignore what was written in the Law and worship God's Son along with Him? I know that can't be what you mean, but I'm not sure what it is you are saying here.
mike
MikeHa,Ha<ha no,no if you read all revelation 21 and Paul you would know that the new earth and the new heaven is wen Christ turn all to his father then "all will be of God,"
we are not yet there.it is good to clearify it
Pierre
Hi Kathi,
I found another one:
Acts 16:29-30 NIV
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”I wonder if this incident happened to Jesus instead of Paul and Silas if you would use it as a “proof text” of Jesus being “worshipped as God”?
So now we have John bowing down before an angel, the man bowing down before King David, and the jailer bowing down before Paul and Silas. Yet it is ONLY in when someone bows down before Jesus that you think it is the kind of worship that is given to God.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
This sorta sounds like you:Acts 18:12-13
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
KJV What do you think Paul was teaching that made them make that conclusion?
Really Kathi?
I don't think they were used to worshipping the ONLY TRUE GOD through his Son. To them, it had always been only YHVH, and Paul was introducing them to YHVH's Son, whom we must go through to be saved.
That's what I THINK, anyway.
Why, do you know of any instance where Paul indicated we should worship Jesus or that Jesus was God? What do you say about the fake question I asked? Would you use that as a “worshipping Jesus” proof text given the chance?
And aren't you happy for me that I've found a 4th instance of “bowing down” that wasn't “God Worship”? peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2010,22:14) Really Kathi? I don't think they were used to worshipping the ONLY TRUE GOD through his Son. To them, it had always been only YHVH, and Paul was introducing them to YHVH's Son, whom we must go through to be saved.
That's what I THINK, anyway.
Why, do you know of any instance where Paul indicated we should worship Jesus or that Jesus was God? What do you say about the fake question I asked? Would you use that as a “worshipping Jesus” proof text given the chance?
And aren't you happy for me that I've found a 4th instance of “bowing down” that wasn't “God Worship”? peace and love,
mike
Thanks for your answer Mike!
It is good that you know that Jesus is a necessary part of worshipping God.As to the jailers bowing down, I wouldn't use that as a proof text of them worshiping Paul and Silas because of context…and I know that wasn't your question. BUT, if the context had them bow down to Jesus after Paul and Silas answered their question “What must we do to be saved?” then I would say that would be a good text for showing worship to Jesus. Did you notice the answer that the jailers were given…”You must believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved…”
To all! I also believe that Jesus is our Mediator to through Him we go to the Throne of God and worship Almighty God. But that does not mean IMO that we worship Jesus. Jeus said Himself that His Father is greater then He is. And worship in Spirit and in Truth. The Truth is that Almighty God should only be worshipped IMO. I have not seen any Scriptures that says that we should worship Jesus……one more thing, believing in Jesus Christ does not mean to worship Him. To believe Him that He came and died for us, and through Faith in Him we are saved, that does not say to worship Him……Bow down to Him yes, because He is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, AND THAT IS WHAT YOU DO BOW DOWN TO HIM. EVEN EARTHLY KINGS WE DO, BECAUSE HE IS A KING. …….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,10:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2010,22:14) Really Kathi? I don't think they were used to worshipping the ONLY TRUE GOD through his Son. To them, it had always been only YHVH, and Paul was introducing them to YHVH's Son, whom we must go through to be saved.
That's what I THINK, anyway.
Why, do you know of any instance where Paul indicated we should worship Jesus or that Jesus was God? What do you say about the fake question I asked? Would you use that as a “worshipping Jesus” proof text given the chance?
And aren't you happy for me that I've found a 4th instance of “bowing down” that wasn't “God Worship”? peace and love,
mike
Thanks for your answer Mike!
It is good that you know that Jesus is a necessary part of worshipping God.As to the jailers bowing down, I wouldn't use that as a proof text of them worshiping Paul and Silas because of context…and I know that wasn't your question. BUT, if the context had them bow down to Jesus after Paul and Silas answered their question “What must we do to be saved?” then I would say that would be a good text for showing worship to Jesus. Did you notice the answer that the jailers were given…”You must believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved…”
Kathiit does not matter how many times you will twist scriptures to worship Jesus with is father,
your greatest opposition is not Mike or me or any one else it is this ;;
Jos 22:5 But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul.”
Mt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Mt 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mk 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”all what you and we can think is include here,this will be your accuser,
Pierre
Irene and Pierre,
The angels were told to worship the Son…right?
And we are told by Jesus, Himself, to:John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
to honor means:
to estimate, fix the value
for the value of something belonging to one's self
to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateSo I believe that we are to fix the value of the Son to be the same as the value of the Father. I believe that the Son and the Spirit are merely the extended expression of the Father. The Son is all the Father is except that He is from the Father and not the Father whom He is from, as an extented expression (Word) of the Father's nature, character, wisdom and power, in the person of His Son. So if you can worship the Father's nature, character, wisdom and power then you are also worshiping the Son's nature, character, wisdom, and power because they are the same.
I don't know how you can worship one part of God and not the other parts of Him. It is like me inviting you over for dinner but your spirit isn't invited and neither is your word. How do you come without your spirit and what purpose would there be to not allow you to express yourself with your word?
Do you really think that I am worshiping an idol if I worship the Father in His fullness? Because if I take away the Son and the Spirit from the Father, I worship only in part.So, if I have you for dinner apart from your spirit and word, then I really don't have the full YOU over, do I? Have you heard the expression, “he wasn't all there?” I really don't think that you can separate the Spirit and the Son from God the Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,03:33) Thanks for your answer Mike!
And thanks for your honest answer that if the same circumstances involved Jesus instead of Paul, you would count “bowing down to” as “God Worship”.Doesn't that tell you something? Are you maybe reading the scriptures with a bias that you yourself are not fully aware of?
peace and love,
mikeHi Irene,
Just some info for you before you answer Kathi's post:
The Greek word “proskuneo” can be translated as “doing obeisance to” or “worship” as in the worship of God.
This same word was used for the man bowing down to King David in 2 Sam 1:2 AND for the “worship of God”.
Don't let Kathi convince you there is actually any scripture describing the “WORSHIP” of Jesus, for there aren't any. There are instances of people “bowing down” to him, just like the man did before King David…………..but none that are to be taken to mean Jesus has been or will be “WORSHIPPED”.
How can I be so sure? Because, aside from God demanding He be the only One who receives worship from us, Jesus himself tells Satan that we are to “worship Jehovah God, and serve Him only”.
I know you know the scriptures Irene, I just thought you might like a “heads up” on the word “proskuneo”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,12:31) The angels were told to worship the Son…right?
Kathi:Quote The angels were told to worship the Son…right?
Wrong. The “all knees shall bow” should be enough for you to know that use of “proskuneo” has the “doing obeisance” meaning.Kathi:
Quote John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. So I believe that we are to fix the value of the Son to be the same as the value of the Father.
Yet Luke 6:36 says,Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.It is the same Greek word for “even as” and “just as” in both scriptures. Do you think we can show the same amount of mercy as God can? If you affix the same amount of honor to the Son because of that Greek word, then you must also affix to us the same amount of mercy that God is able to show, right?
Kathi:
Quote I don't know how you can worship one part of God and not the other parts of Him.
Jesus is not a “part” of God, Kathi. God is one being, and His Son is a totally different and separate being.peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2010,21:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,03:33) Thanks for your answer Mike!
And thanks for your honest answer that if the same circumstances involved Jesus instead of Paul, you would count “bowing down to” as “God Worship”.Doesn't that tell you something? Are you maybe reading the scriptures with a bias that you yourself are not fully aware of?
peace and love,
mike
Actually Mike,
I didn't use the same circumstances but changed the circumstances.If someone asked a disciple what they must do to be saved and they said to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, then a light suddenly shone all around them so bright and the voice out of the light said I am Jesus, I do believe the natural response would be to express worship, the kind given to a divine being, not to be compared to some bowing down to someone like an earthly king.
You have admitted that worship that was taught by Paul is different than the worship that the Jews understood, thanks!
I do read the scriptures with a bias and so do you. I believe the Son is the extension of the Father and is the fullness of the qualities of the Father (aside from being the Father), in the person of the Son. You seem to think that He was at one point weaker, less wise, less powerful than the Father and then the Father gave Him these powers at some point after being begotten. I think He had them from the get go of His being begotten and existed for Him even before being begotten.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,14:23) You seem to think that He was at one point weaker, less wise, less powerful than the Father and then the Father gave Him these powers at some point after being begotten. I think He had them from the get go of His being begotten and existed for Him even before being begotten.
Hi Kathi,Not “at one point”, but “always and forever”. God's Son never has and will never be everything his own God is. That is why Jesus is still a servant to the One he calls “my God”.
Come on Kathi, Jesus straight out told us that our God is the same person and being as his God is.
And don't forget the Father/Son relationship. When has a son EVER been as strong, wise and powerful as his father “from the get go”?
mike
Mike,
Quote The “all knees shall bow” should be enough for you to know that use of “proskuneo” has the “doing obeisance” meaning.
If ALL knees shall bow by the direction of the Father then that tells you that He is someone divine and not someone equal to an earthly king.Quote It is the same Greek word for “even as” and “just as” in both scriptures. Do you think we can show the same amount of mercy as God can? If you affix the same amount of honor to the Son because of that Greek word, then you must also affix to us the same amount of mercy that God is able to show, right? It is the word 'honor' that is about setting a value and it is the value that is to be the 'same as' the Son and to the Father. Mercy does not have the idea of 'value' in it.
Quote Jesus is not a “part” of God, Kathi. God is one being, and His Son is a totally different and separate being. What you see as a separate being to the Father, I see as first and foremost, an extension of the Father personified in the person of the Son. So we are having different perspectives.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2010,22:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 19 2010,14:23) You seem to think that He was at one point weaker, less wise, less powerful than the Father and then the Father gave Him these powers at some point after being begotten. I think He had them from the get go of His being begotten and existed for Him even before being begotten.
Hi Kathi,Not “at one point”, but “always and forever”. God's Son never has and will never be everything his own God is. That is why Jesus is still a servant to the One he calls “my God”.
Come on Kathi, Jesus straight out told us that our God is the same person and being as his God is.
And don't forget the Father/Son relationship. When has a son EVER been as strong, wise and powerful as his father “from the get go”?
mike
Mike,
I do believe that the God's 'Son' would be quite different than our sons. We can't comprehend Perfect begetting Perfect, we can only comprehend imperfect begetting imperfect, so there would be a big difference.Jesus spoke from the viewpoint of being a man in His humanity and from the viewpoint of being God OF God in His divinity. He is in both views OF His Father at the same time being the extended expression of His Father, personified.
The Father's 'expression' doesn't need to be given anything because from the get go, the 'expression' had everything from the Father. The 'expression' was a mere continuation of the Father personified in a true Son. Like the offshoot of the parent tree, the offshoot is merely a continuation of the tree, not a lessor that receives the greater later on as it grows.
Now keep in mind that the Son that was in all ways like the Father, except being a Son and not the Father, did empty Himself before coming as the Son of Man…so after that, He was given back that which He had emptied Himself of beforehand.
Kathi:
Quote If ALL knees shall bow by the direction of the Father then that tells you that He is someone divine and not someone equal to an earthly king.
Agreed. Jesus is more than an earthy king…………but he is LESS THAN his God, as proven by Ezekiel 34:24, Micah 5:4, John 10:29, 13:16, and 14:28, among many others.Kathi:
Quote It is the word 'honor' that is about setting a value and it is the value that is to be the 'same as' the Son and to the Father. Mercy does not have the idea of 'value' in it.
Poppycock and word games. You know as well as I that Luke 6:36 means, “The Father shows mercy. You also should show mercy.” And the same applies to John 5:23. Jesus is saying, “You show honor to the Father. You also should show honor to the one He has sent in His name.” It implies nothing about “equal honor”. Why on earth would we show God's servant an EQUAL amount of honor as we show God Almighty Himself? Did King David's servants receive an EQUAL amount of honor as King David did?Kathi:
Quote What you see as a separate being to the Father, I see as first and foremost, an extension of the Father personified in the person of the Son. So we are having different perspectives.
Could you show me a scripture that confirms YOUR perspective? Could you show a scripture that implies they are the same being?mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
