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Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 16 2010,15:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:24) Ted,
What you call 'apparition' the early church father's called a theophany.Theophany: an appearance of God in visible form, temporary and not necessarily material. Such an appearance is to be contrasted with the Incarnation, in which there was a permanent union between God and complete manhood (body, soul , and spirit) (Cross, The Oxford Dictionary Of The Christian Church).
Do you think that the Word of God had a distinct mind from the Father?
http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/religion/students/glossary.html
Kathi….. The word of God is an intricate part of the God being….just as our voice is a function of our being and a means to communicate….
Hi Ted,
I came across this as I randomly looked through this thread. I wanted to bump it because I was reading something last night about the Word of YHVH as it 'appeared in a vision' and that didn't sound like what you describe. It sounds like something that has a visual appearance. If I can find it, I will put it here.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,12:57) Hi Kathi, During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David. I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.
I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”. Do you remember this? I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.
But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.
It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar. This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.
When Jesus was worshipped as the son of God on the boat, was that proskuneo too?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2005,16:29) Hi,
This topic always causes a flood of opinions so perhaps we should look at it on it's own.Jn 4.21
” Jesus said to her
'Woman, believe me an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you WORSHIP THE FATHER.
You worship that which you do not know ;we worship that which we know;for salvation is from the Jews.
But an hour is coming, and now is , when the
TRUE WORSHIPPERS shall WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and truth;for such people THE FATHER SEEKS TO BE HIS WORSHIPPERS.
God is spirit;and those who WORSHIP HIM must worship in spirit and in truth'”This is the teaching of Jesus about worship.
He says we should worship the Father.Hi Nick.
“Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him,
“Be gone, Satan!
For it is written,“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.”
Just my ten cents.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,20:10) Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 16 2010,15:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:24) Ted,
What you call 'apparition' the early church father's called a theophany.Theophany: an appearance of God in visible form, temporary and not necessarily material. Such an appearance is to be contrasted with the Incarnation, in which there was a permanent union between God and complete manhood (body, soul , and spirit) (Cross, The Oxford Dictionary Of The Christian Church).
Do you think that the Word of God had a distinct mind from the Father?
http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/religion/students/glossary.html
Kathi….. The word of God is an intricate part of the God being….just as our voice is a function of our being and a means to communicate….
Hi Ted,
I came across this as I randomly looked through this thread. I wanted to bump it because I was reading something last night about the Word of YHVH as it 'appeared in a vision' and that didn't sound like what you describe. It sounds like something that has a visual appearance. If I can find it, I will put it here.
LU, I would completely agree with TheoJ here. The word of God is His own word just as we have our own word, spoken. And the spirit of God (The Holy Spirit) is God's own spirit, just as we have our own spirit as well as our word which makes ONE GOD, and that God alone we worship and love with all of our heart.Jesus said it, Jesus said that it is God alone who we are to Worship. We should obey Him.
Anyway just an additional ten cents.
Hi 2besee,
I appreciate your response. I ask you if what you say is so, why is the 'Word of YHVH' appearing in a vision?Read this excerpt of an article that I will link to:
Genesis 15 is a fairly familiar passage to many Christians, at least in terms of the
basic flow of events. In that chapter God repeats his promise to Abraham from Genesis
12 that the patriarch will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. But is
God alone when he makes this promise? Check it out and watch for the underlining:
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear
not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But
Abram said, “O Lord God [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] what will you give
me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of
Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring,
and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word
of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own
son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look
toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.”
Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed the
Lord [Hebrew, Yahweh] and he counted it to him as righteousness.
This is a fascinating text. Notice right from the start that it is the WORD of the
Lord who comes to Abram in a vision. This is no mere voice or auditory sensation.
The Word here is something that can be seen—else why call it a vision? Abram
recognizes this Word or being as the Lord (Yahweh) and speaks to him as such. Now,
since Abram is in a conversation with God, we might be tempted to say that the phrase
“the word of the Lord came to him” in verse four is just a sound in his ear and no other
person is visibly there. Verse five makes it clear that we are interpreting verse one
correctly—that there is a person there with Abraham: “And he [the Word / Yahweh]
brought him outside and said …” A sound does not bring a person outside; another
person does. My thinking here is that this text does not have two deity figures in it at
one time, but rather that here we have another case of Yahweh appearing in visible form
to Abraham, this time referred to as the Word. Incidentally, have you ever wondered
how, in Genesis 18, where we read point-blank that Yahweh visits Abraham as a human
(or in a human body since he ate with Abraham), Abraham recognized Yahweh in that
episode? My guess is that he had seen him before, here in Genesis 15.ii
The most powerful evidence that Genesis 15 is describing a visible person
referred to as the “Word” comes from the New Testament—and from Jesus, the Word,
himself. In John 8:56, the Incarnate Word tells his Jewish antagonists that he appeared
to Abraham prior to his incarnation: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see
my day. He saw it and was glad.” The Jews object to this claim, whereupon Jesus utters
his famous statement, “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).iii My point here is that
only one passage in the Old Testament makes sense of this claim by Jesus, the Logos,
the Word—Genesis 15:1, where “the Word of the Lord appeared to Abraham in a
vision” as the visible, personal manifestation of Yahweh. I hope you grasp the
significance of this interchange. Since the Word is clearly equated and identified as
Yahweh in Genesis 15, when the New Testament has Jesus saying “that was me,” he is
claiming to be Yahweh in visible form. He is the Word of the Old Testament, who was
the visible Yahweh.iv
Returning to the Old Testament, an episode similar to that of Genesis 15
transpired in the life of Samuel when he was a boy. I Samuel 3 is another familiar Bible
story that we often read through too quickly. Little Samuel keeps hearing a voice
calling for him while he’s trying to sleep, but there’s more to it than that. The voice is
the Word of God:
1 Now the young man Samuel was ministering to the Lord under Eli. And
the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
2 At that time Eli, whose eyesight had begun to grow dim so that he could
not see, was lying down in his own place. 3 The lamp of God had not yet
gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the temple of the Lord, where the
ark of God was. 4 Then the Lord called Samuel, and he said, “Here I am!”
5 and ran to Eli and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I
did not call; lie down again.” So he went and lay down. 6 And the Lord
called again, “Samuel!” and Samuel arose and went to Eli and said, “Here
I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call, my son; lie down
again.” 7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, and the word of the
Lord had not yet been revealed to him. 8 And the Lord called Samuel
again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli and said, “Here I am,
for you called me.” Then Eli perceived that the Lord was calling the young
man. 9 Therefore Eli said to Samuel, “Go, lie down, and if he calls you,
you shall say, ‘Speak, Lord, for your servant hears.’ ” So Samuel went and
lay down in his place. 10 And the Lord came and stood, calling as at other
times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant
hears.” . . . 19 And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him and let none
of his words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba
knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the Lord. 21 And the
Lord appeared again at Shiloh, for the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at
Shiloh by the word of the Lord.
I hope you’re as amazed as I was the first time I saw this passage in this light.
As with Genesis 15, the first verse of this passage makes a clear association between the
Word of the Lord and a visionary experience—not a mere auditory event. The Word
was rare because visions were rare. Notice at the end of the chapter the fact that we are
talking about the Word as a being who was seen is absolutely nailed down. The Lord
(Yahweh) “appeared again” at Shiloh, the place where the tabernacle (“temple”) was
located before Solomon’s temple was built. And Yahweh “revealed himself”—again
the language of sight—by the Word of the Lord. Notice as well that once Eli figures out
what’s going on and instructs Samuel on how to respond, the Word came again and
“stood” before Samuel. Voices do not stand! Persons do. God appears once again in
physical form and is referred to as the Word.
Our last example from the Hebrew Old Testament is perhaps even more explicit,
and takes the Old Testament beyond the visual realm. In Jeremiah 1, the call of the
prophet, we read:
1 The words of Jeremiah, the son of Hilkiah, one of the priests who were
in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin, 2 to whom the word of the Lord
came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the
thirteenth year of his reign. 3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son
of Josiah, king of Judah, and until the end of the eleventh year of
Zedekiah, the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the captivity of Jerusalem
in the fifth month. 4 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I
consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said,
“Ah, Lord God! [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] Behold, I do not know how to
speak, for I am only a youth.” 7 But the Lord [Yahweh] said to me, “Do
not say, ‘I am only a youth’; for to all to whom I send you, you shall go,
and whatever I command you, you shall speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you, declares the Lord.” 9 Then the Lord
[Yahweh] put out his hand and touched my mo
uth. And the Lord
[Yahweh] said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.
It is quite clear from the first eight verses in this chapter that the prophet is
conversing with Yahweh, who in verse 4 is referred to as “the Word.” We could easily
take this as Jeremiah speaking to the air or responding to something only in his ear. But
then comes verse nine, where the Word reaches out and touches Jeremiah. Sounds
don’t physically touch people. Physical persons touch people. In Jeremiah 1 the
Word—pardon my borrowing from John 1:14—is made flesh and does something only
a physical entity can do.
In the last chapter I made a point of demonstrating that the understanding of
Wisdom as a deity figure was something that wasn’t made up by Christians as a sort of
self-styled manipulation of the Old Testament for their own purposes. That view was
shared by Jewish writers well before the New Testament was ever written. The same is
true for the idea that the “Word” was a physical manifestation of Yahweh. That belief
was actually very common in the Judaism that flourished in Palestine well before Jesus
was born. What this means for us in this book is that John had to look no further than
his own Jewish traditions for his doctrine of the Word as a manifestation of Yahweh,
the God of the Old Testament. What we find in the New Testament demonstrates
continuity of the concepts, along with further development. The point is that both pre-
Christian Jews and Christian Jews looked back at their Hebrew Old Testament and saw
a “binitarian” godhead in certain passages. How can I be so sure? All one needs to do
is look back at the Jewish writings before Jesus founded the Church.To read the rest of that article go here and then click on 'The Word of YHVH':
Hi LU,
I read it.
It was good to read, except that I understood the word of God to be God's own words spoken through the spiritually visible Son of God – the Holy Spirit.Then I got to the ending, where it said:
Quote The point is that both pre-
Christian Jews and Christian Jews looked back at their Hebrew Old Testament and saw
a “binitarian” godhead in certain passages.NO! The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the ONE God.
'Who knows the mind of a man but the Spirit that is in Him, and so, likewise, no one knows the mind of God but His own Spirit.'
The Lord is the Spirit!
Be careful what you read, LU. I am speaking through experience..
(something for you to think about – I am in too many threads, so will leave you to it)
God bless.
Hi 2besee,
Thanks for taking the time to read it. I left a question for you in one of those threads you are already in.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,09:57) Hi Kathi, During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David. I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.
I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”. Do you remember this? I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.
But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.
It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar. This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.
There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him. Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe. Yet, the word is proskyneo.Yet, it wasn't worship.
Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.
All things were made by Him
He is the Lord of all
He is the Lion of Judah
He is the Root of Jesse
He is the First and the Last
He is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the Lord of lords
He is the great Shepherd
He is the Redeemer of Israel
He purchased the church with His blood
He is the head of the church
His angels minister to Him…Is He not worthy of your deity worship?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,16:53) Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible. All things were made by Him
He is the Lord of all
He is the Lion of Judah
He is the Root of Jesse
He is the First and the Last
He is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the Lord of lords
He is the great Shepherd
He is the Redeemer of Israel
He purchased the church with His blood
He is the head of the church
His angels minister to Him…Is He not worthy of your deity worship?
I am only here saying that there are at least two instances in the NT where proskyneo doesn't mean “worship.”Looking at those two verses, it certainly doesn't always mean “worship.”
Studying this, it seems what it comes down to is: if you already believe Jesus is God the almighty, then you will think he should of course be worshipped. If you don't think he is God almighty, you will see differently.
You pointing out Jesus' greatness, doesn't really prove anything, as no one questions his importance or greatness. What is in question is whether he was worshipped, and should be worshipped today.
Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God in the Bible.
Not as God though. It says, God AND the Lamb in Revelation. Worthy is God AND the Lamb that was slain. Something like that.Kathi probably wants it to say that God was slain and is worshipped. But no, the Lamb of God was slain and is considered worthy.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53) Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible. All things were made by Him
He is the Lord of all
He is the Lion of Judah
He is the Root of Jesse
He is the First and the Last
He is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the Lord of lords
He is the great Shepherd
He is the Redeemer of Israel
He purchased the church with His blood
He is the head of the church
His angels minister to Him…Is He not worthy of your deity worship?
KathiWe're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father
Wen you find this please let everyone know,
Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,07:47) Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God in the Bible.
Not as God though. It says, God AND the Lamb in Revelation. Worthy is God AND the Lamb that was slain. Something like that.Kathi probably wants it to say that God was slain and is worshipped. But no, the Lamb of God was slain and is considered worthy.
He is worshiped as the begotten God, not as God the Father, nevertheless…He is worshiped as a God would be albeit an only begotten One.The Lamb that was slain was also the only begotten God…seems you miss the intent of Jesus being both the Root and the Shoot. You consistently deny Him as the Root.
Btw, t8…Jesus as the firstborn is not the prototype…the Father is the prototype. That came to me tonight during Hebrew class…you're welcome!
Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2013,07:59) Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53) Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible. All things were made by Him
He is the Lord of all
He is the Lion of Judah
He is the Root of Jesse
He is the First and the Last
He is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the Lord of lords
He is the great Shepherd
He is the Redeemer of Israel
He purchased the church with His blood
He is the head of the church
His angels minister to Him…Is He not worthy of your deity worship?
KathiWe're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father
Wen you find this please let everyone know,
t-
Where have I ever suggested that He was the Father? He is Almighty with the Father though.Quote (david @ April 02 2013,01:19) Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,16:53) Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible. All things were made by Him
He is the Lord of all
He is the Lion of Judah
He is the Root of Jesse
He is the First and the Last
He is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the Lord of lords
He is the great Shepherd
He is the Redeemer of Israel
He purchased the church with His blood
He is the head of the church
His angels minister to Him…Is He not worthy of your deity worship?
I am only here saying that there are at least two instances in the NT where proskyneo doesn't mean “worship.”Looking at those two verses, it certainly doesn't always mean “worship.”
Studying this, it seems what it comes down to is: if you already believe Jesus is God the almighty, then you will think he should of course be worshipped. If you don't think he is God almighty, you will see differently.
You pointing out Jesus' greatness, doesn't really prove anything, as no one questions his importance or greatness. What is in question is whether he was worshipped, and should be worshipped today.
David,
You said this:Quote There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him. Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe. Yet, the word is proskyneo. Yet, it wasn't worship.
Compare the verses where any of the disciples worshiped Jesus with the one you are talking about when they 'mock' worship Him. Are the disciples CLEARLY not worshiping Jesus too?
Luke 24
50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.Quote (david @ April 01 2013,22:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,09:57) Hi Kathi, During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David. I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.
I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”. Do you remember this? I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.
But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.
It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar. This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.
There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him. Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe. Yet, the word is proskyneo.Yet, it wasn't worship.
John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”
40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”
Question: Does it really make sense to anyone here that this formerly blind man “WORSHIPED” Jesus right in front of some Pharisees, who were currently busy plotting a way to have Jesus killed, and they said NOTHING about a man WORSHIPPING him as if he was God Almighty?
This is just one more instance of “proskuneo” that should NOT be translated as “worshiped” – even though most Trinitarian translations DO render it that way – simply because the reverence was paid to Jesus, and not someone else.
LU,
Colossians 2:18
New King James Version (NKJV)18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[a] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Footnotes:Colossians 2:18 NU-Text omits not.
The word used here for worship is thréskeia. It is not the act of bowing or the like.
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