Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
More distinctions drawn
heb 2
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
If scripture draws distinctions between Jesus and the angels should we disagree?

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2014,09:41)

Hi MB, If scripture draws distinctions between Jesus and the angels should we disagree?

Nick

you lack of understanding scriptures is alarming ,you really should read them slowly and make more efforts to understand them,

the distinction you try to prove is not there ,but it appear to you it is ,

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 14 2014,16:14)

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2014,00:17) Daniel why does it take so long to answer Mike questions you could have saved you one hour in written words ,if you would take one minute to answer his questions ,now you postpone the answer again ,and prepare a counter attack so to speak   Hi t I'm auckland at the moment for work and I was truly on holiday when I did my last post. I don't need to spend time to couter post, have you NOT read my posts, the spelling and grammer proves that they are done on the fly. Its very easy to prove that a angel jesus doesn't exist and that Jesus is God [the Son]. the Word was God remember. You dont trust me so you will never believe my intentions are good so I'm not the person to reach you. this is my last post to you, I only wish you Love Jesus with all your heart and soul and mind and not spend all your time trying to prove he is Something YOU dont even understand. You say he is a NOT a angel but he is a angel. He is FROm the Father substance but he is NOT the true God [nature of his Father] You can't have an Almighty God of Nothing and a eternal Father of nothing. The Son is the radiance of the Father glory, the one and only begotten God, FROM the Father ***VERY*** subtsance THE ONLY true Son of God, light FROM light true God FROM true God. Life in the ONLY true Son of God, Jesus who became THE Son of man to give you a chance to have his Father as your Father. Daniel Again i'm sorry I wont be replying to your message this was only meant to be between Mike and I, I have *very* little time and need to finish this debate with mike as The son of God is calling me for his work in other areas that have more fruit. I know i'm in him and he hears me and my prayers are answered and I experience his blessings in my Life. Live in Love and in truth.

hi Daniel

Quote

You can't have an Almighty God of Nothing and a eternal Father of nothing.

i have already answered this ;God was alone before he start to create and so was not a father ;he became father when he created in the beginning THE WORD” that is his son ,and that became in time Jesus Christ

Quote

You dont trust me so you will never believe

I want to believe you ,but i believe scriptures more because without them you and me would have no understanding at all,but we can not add anything to it ,or make God like men ,

Quote

I only wish you Love Jesus with all your heart and soul and mind and not spend all your time trying to prove he is Something YOU dont even understand. You say he is a NOT a angel but he is a angel. He is FROm the Father substance but he is NOT

this is definitely not true on all accounts ,

first i love Christ with all my heart ;but not above my God and his God ,

I also really understand who Christ is ,he is a messenger of God (angel) but he also is a spirit BEING

also being the first of all of God's creation HE AS BEEN MADE FROM THE NATURE /SUBSTANCE OF HIS FATHER

BUT I CANNOT MAKE HIM THE GOD OF WHICH HE HIS THE SON OFF

THING THAT YOU TRY TO DEMONSTRATE WITH YOUR OWN WORDS AND SO CONTRADICT SCRIPTURES ;

FORE THOSE REASONS I CAN NOT TRUST YOUR WORDS

BUT IF YOU HAVE TO GO THIS IS YOUR CHOICE YOU ARE FREE ,BUT KNOW THIS THAT YOU HAVE NO PRODUCE TRUTH IN SCRIPTURES THAT THE SON IS GOD HIS FATHER ,

ONLY BY MEN S SPECULATION AND CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURES YOU COULD ACCOMPLISH THIS AND THAT WOULD OF CAUSE BE LIES ,

TAKE CARE MY FRIEND ,MAY GOD SHOW YOU HIS WAYS

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2014,21:34)

Hi MB Heb 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Nick,

First you ask me where Jesus is called a messenger, and then proceed to post the above.  

If you REALLY want to get into this, I will take you through it.  But just don't waste my time, okay?

1.  First, read my last post to Daniel.  And try to UNDERSTAND that the FACT of the matter is that the Hebrew word “ma'lak” and the Greek word “aggelos” both literally mean “messenger”.  And we can use any of numerous scriptures where Jesus is delivering the MESSAGES of God to show that Jesus was a “messenger of God”.  The one you quoted in the box above works just fine.  So does this one:

John 12
49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.

Now in most English translations, you will find the English word “angel” when the messenger in question is deemed to be a SPIRIT messenger.  And if you just read Revelation 1:1, you'll realize that Jesus is STILL delivering messages from his God – even as a SPIRIT being.

So, the English word “angel”, which we have ADDED INTO scripture,  means “spirit messenger”.  Jesus is most definitely a “spirit messenger” of his God, and therefore, by definition, an “angel of God”.

2.  Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

The only way a comparison statement like that works is if the PERSON mentioned is actually a member of the GROUP mentioned.  Otherwise the statement is nonsensical, and doesn't work.

For instance:

A.  You welcomed me as if I were a rock star – as if I were Bruce Springsteen himself.

B.  You welcomed me as if I were a rock star – as if I were Albert Einstein himself.

Can you see how A works perfectly, while B is nonsensical, because Albert Einstein has nothing to do with “rock stars”?  So in Galatians 4:14, Paul was including Jesus Christ as a member of the group known as “angel of God”.

3.  Take every scripture that you posted in those recent posts, and read them in Young's Literal Translation.  Then try to figure out what is meant when you read the words that were actually written in those Greek scriptures.

For instance, you quoted from Hebrews 1.

Hebrews 1 Young's Literal Translation
4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’ and again, ‘I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?’

6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, ‘And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;’

7and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, ‘Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;’

Or this one:

Hebrews 2:5 YLT
5 For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak,

That is what the Greek words really say, Nick.  English translators have ADDED the word “angel” into the scriptures, when they believe the “messenger” in question was a spirit being.  But the Greek word really just means “messenger”.

So, wasn't John a “messenger of God”?  Wasn't Peter?  And Paul?  Does the above verse mean that God didn't subject the coming world to those three men?

Plus, if the world to come is subjected only to MAN, then is the world to come NOT subjected to God?  Or is it that God is really a MAN?

4.  And remember that Jesus was God's FIRSTborn Son.  Who was second born?  Michael?  Gabriel?  Perhaps the one known as “Satan” and “Beelzebub”?  

If the second born son was an angel, and so on and so on until there were myriads of these sons – why wouldn't the firstborn son also be what those others were?

Was David a different kind of being than Jesse's firstborn son?  Of course not.  So why would Gabriel be a different kind of being than God's firstborn Son?

5.  And finally, read Hebrews 1:5 again.  A lot of people assume it is saying that God didn't say, “You are my Son” to ANY angel.

But the question is really, “To WHICH ONE of the angels did God say, 'You are my Son' ?”  And the answer is:  “Jesus is the only angel to whom God said, 'You are my Son'.”

So that one could be understood either way, Nick.

These should at least give you some things to think about.  

I am not interested in snide quips.  If you have intelligent information that might steer this discussion one way or the other, please bring it up.  If not, then please don't say anything at all.

I'm really not even interested in this “angel” discussion anymore. I have already been through all of this with Daniel a long time ago. I would prefer that Daniel stay on point, and start explaining those nine scriptures I quoted for him – where Jesus is undeniably identified as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things.

But since you asked………….

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2014,21:41)

Hi MB, If scripture draws distinctions between Jesus and the angels should we disagree?

Nick,

2 Kings 25:28 NASB ©
and he spoke kindly to him and set his throne above the throne of the kings who were with him in Babylon.

In this verse, many translations ADD the word “other”, making it say, “the throne of the other kings”.  They do this because they know that Jehoiachin was also a king, so “other” is implied.  But as it is written in the Hebrew text, a person could insist that there is a DISTINCTION being made between Jehoiachin and “kings”, right?

But what if we knew Jesus was an angel of God, and therefore added the impled “other” to a few places in Hebrews 1?

Hebrews 1 NIV
4 So he became as much superior to the OTHER angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

5 For to which of the OTHER angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
   today I have become your Father”

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
   and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s OTHER angels worship him.”

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
God divides between Jesus and the messengers.
But you wish to muddy the water?
Take care as others may want to drink from it.

[mikeboll64]

Nick,

“Angels” are spirit sons of God.

I could say that Job 1 and 2 divides between Satan and the angels. But is that the case? Isn't Satan an “angel/spirit son of God” – even though he seems to be listed separately from them in Job 1 and 2?

I could also remind you of Galatians 4:14, which clearly identifies Jesus as an angel of God.

I guess I could do a lot of things – like I did in my last post. But the bottom line will always remain that both the Hebrew word “ma'lak”, and the Greek word “aggelos”, refer to MESSENGERS.

When the MESSENGER in question is deemed by the English translators to be a SPIRIT messenger, those same English translators use the ENGLISH word “angel”.

Revelation 1:1 proves Jesus to be a “spirit messenger”, Nick. There's really not much more to say about it.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Gal 4.4 says nothing about any angels,
You may amuse yourself twiddling verses for your theories but should you?

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2014,06:34)

Hi MB, Gal 4.4 says nothing about any angels, You may amuse yourself twiddling verses for your theories but should you?

N

Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

LK 1:18 Zacharias said to the angel, “How will I know this for certain? For I am an old man and my wife is advanced in years.”

LK 1:19 The angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.

Lk 12:8 “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God.

MT 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God “SEND ” his Son, born of a

woman, born under law,

you have much to learn seeing your answers ,but you are to stiff neck to learn ,so you fight against God not against Mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2014,18:34)

Hi MB, Gal 4.4 says nothing about any angels, You may amuse yourself twiddling verses for your theories but should you?

Galatians 4:14, Nick.

[terraricca]

nick ?

[terraricca]

HI

THIS TOPIC STARTS WITH A QUESTION ;

for I want to look into who and what the scriptures says this person his ,

what I would like to address is questions like ;

1) what is he ?

2) where did he came from

3)where did he when when he died ?

4) was he sent if yes by whom ?

5) what was his purpose for his life ?

6) was he special like different in ways that other man are not ?

7)whose will did he followed ?

8) who are his parents ?

9) was he different of his parents ?

10) who introduced him to us from the beginning ?

11)why can we trust him ?

12) does he have a god ?

13) did he worship his god ?

14) why was he tempted ?

15) by whom was he tempted and for what purpose ?

16) what was the law that he was born under ?

17) was he foretold in the scriptures ? if yes why ?

18) what would Jesus bring for us ?

19) why was it said that he has no sins ?

20)how could this be possible to have no sins and yet be a man ?

21) and how did he affect us through the sin of Adam ?

22) can a man like Jesus be really given what he said if he was a real human being ?

23) how much can we believe of all the things he said or have been said by his apostles ?

24)and why does it say of him that he his the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;for this eliminates all others ?

25)why does scriptures says he his the son of man and the son of God ?

26) why does Jesus called his God his father ?

27) ?

please I am looking for answers with scriptures NOT OPINIONS PLEASE

[Miia]

Please excuse if this is hard to understand I’m just on my mobile.

I have had an interesting ongoing experience recently which has left me with questions.

I had surgery 25th march and had post surgery complications. The pain has often been unbearable, and I can’t take most pain medications because they cause other problems.

Anyway, I was at my parents house one day lying in bed and on the wall is a framed picture of Jesus with some kids. I don’t believe in pictures depicting Jesus, but that picture started my experience.

So, anyway that night back at my own place I started talking to Jesus (I usually pray to the Father). It was the most amazing conversation. Jesus helped me through that particular pain (one of many), and removed it completely, all the while telling me things. I wanted to know why he hadn’t been there for me, and he assured me he had been – he was working through family who were helping in any way they could (only some family were, others couldn’t care less). He pointed out he works through anyone who is his, and those who didn’t care or help weren’t his. I hadn’t realised one son (now 22) who had been really supportive in his own way was (a Christian). Jesus assured me he had known him since he was only small and reminded me of some of the things he used to say, just goes to show, you never know who are his because this particular son never speaks about belief, and no one would guess.

Anyway, every day I have continued talking with Jesus. And Jesus has continued helping me through each pain. Some days are worse than others, but it only gets better. I cry when I think how much like us Jesus is. Jesus suffered all by himself. I cry when I see any human suffering (especially a documentary i saw on a concentration camp – why so much evil, how can people do those things to other human beings?). This is the same spirit i began with that i lost. I can see who are his and who aren’t so easily now. I cry when I think how much I love Jesus.
But it leaves me now wondering – is Jesus God? I know most here will say ‘no’ and so would I have months ago. But there’s only one God right? I am only seeing Jesus atm (with my heart mind and soul).

[AndrewAD]

Dear Mia,thanks for sharing and you keep on doing what you are doing if that is helping you.I too had a surgery not long ago and was down for eight weeks.I prayed at this time to know the real Jesus and like you I never prayed or talked to Jesus either but only prayed to the Father in Jesus name as I was taught,even as a trinitarian.For some reason the song What a Friend we have in Jesus came to my mind and I decided i would try talking to him too. I had a startling realization of Jesus,even though I no longer claimed to be trinitarian.But I do see that Jesus is to us as Christians the manifestation of God on earth, and a divine special person whether that be in the synoptics or John or Paul.Jesus shows us God.

All the theology/religious speak is confusing and I for one don’t pretend to understand it all either.But don’t you let people confuse you.God and Jesus loves you and your family.I love you too sister! and God bless you and yours! And I pray for your continued healing.

[Ed J]

Anyway, every day I have continued talking with Jesus

Hi Miia,

Ask him what he thinks of me?

Ed J

[kerwin]

Miia,

The Father is God just like Jesus said. You can believe him or you can believe those disagree and so by implications accuse God of being tempted by evil. I choose to believe Jesus and to believe God cannot be tempted by evil while Jesus was.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 7 months ago by Admin.

[kerwin]

miia,

May God bring you through your testing and trials.

[Anastas]

I will also pray for you Miia.

Only God knows whom he has chosen and it isn’t for us to decide that.

You will be led to where you will go; follow what the Spirit is telling you and you will know the truth. Our Lord came to us to show us God and acts on behalf of God as God, being given God’s name, becoming our mediator to the one true God, the Father. There are some who say that it is wrong to pray to the Lord, but I would not agree. The Lord is in us, lives with us, and speaks to us, how could we then say it is wrong to speak to him who is there to mediate for us? Your love for the Lord is evident, but remember what he has taught in scripture. He does nothing for his own glory, but for his Father’s and our Father’s glory, for his God’s and for our God’s glory.

[Miia]

Hi thanks I will try address all in this post.

Andrew, it is quite a wake up and we understand each other. Jesus is definitely very active and real and we can know him. thank you. much love.

Ed, I would not ask a question like that.

Kerwin, thanks. I used to think I had it all figured out. Do you speak to Jesus?

Hi Anastas. thanks. exactly: why would we not speak to Jesus. I had become accustomed to praying to the Father in Jesus name, yet years ago when I had the spirit in my life (compassion is a number one sign I believe) I used to talk to Jesus. how far we can fall away and go down some unknown path.

I’m still left wondering though. Will write more when I can.

[Author]

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