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@t8,
Did Jesus create himself… Yes or No ?
Look at the Cell diagram (below) and see how it is a relationship that is created, not the substance. The moment the offspring relationship was created, the parent relationship was created but the substance was the same age in both and identical. Also see that the parent cell is the giver, the son cell is the receiver. The parent cell is not the receiver and the son cell is not the giver. Let that analogy show you how that question like that is answered at the cellular level to help give understanding. The parent cell side initiated the process.
That is the value of the Cell Theory…to help answer that question…did Jesus create himself…Yes or No. Again, I’m not saying God is like a cell but the process of Closed Mitosis shows that the cell offspring did not create itself nor was his essence any different than the parent offspring.
The answer is NO. Jesus was not created, it was the position and relationship as a son that was created not his essence. The Father’s position and relationship as Father was created at the moment the Father gave of himself to his Son, their essence is eternal as I understand it.
God begat a son. This is written, so it is what I believe.
We seem to read about him having divine nature and that we can participate in this nature. I do not see this as making anyone God just as being a spirit doesn’t make you God.
Again, scripture is not telling us that we need to reconcile Jesus as God so I don’t need to bother doing that.
Likewise, scripture is not telling us to reconcile that Jesus was an alien or reincarnated even though others try and reconcile that.
No, it is simple. He is the first to be with God it seems and he has the highest given position in all of creation.
Pushing the son of God into the level of God himself is not hinted at for us and thus is not necessary. It is even wrong to embark on such speculation and create theories that do not line up with scripture. Jesus own words are what I believe and he stated that he was sent by the ONLY true God. Further, Paul stated that for US, there is one God the Father.
Trinitarian thought, Binitarian thought, Mitosis, or becoming God ourselves is not relevant to my faith or to true faith. These are all false things that some chase after.
@t8
Can you state this in other words because I don’t understand what you are getting at:
Again, scripture is not telling us that we need to reconcile Jesus as God so I don’t need to bother doing that.
Thanks, LU
Why bother trying to make Jesus, God? Scripture doesn’t bother. It’s like trying to invent a doctrine that makes Jesus to be an archangel. You can say this and that, but scripture doesn’t bring up such a notion, so why invent ways to make him an archangel. Likewise when trying to make him God.
Why is him being the son of God and the messiah not enough? It is plenty. That is what he is.
LU……Jesus is “not” A God, he never claimed to be either. T8 is right about that, To Make anyone or anything a God is very dangerous ground, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
God’s nature is divine his essence is spirit
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Divine nature pertaining to Jesus Christ and the children of God
But scripture says that we can share in God’s nature so all the more Jesus Christ who after all has a body now, that we will eventually have. It is written that we will be like him. If Jesus Christ is God because he has divine nature, then why aren’t we God by reason of participating in the same divine nature?
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Connecting the dots, most will agree that we are not God and never will we be God. So divine nature doesn’t qualify as being God (himself).
Was Jesus God or a man?
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus existing in the form of God doesn’t make him God, rather that his nature is from God. A good explanation of a son of God. We also read that Jesus emptied himself, but of what did he empty himself? Many think it was his foreknowledge and divine nature because he took on flesh or human nature and became a man being born like us. He started life as a baby, grew to a child, then an adult. We do know right now that Jesus is at the right-hand of God in the glory he had with him even before creation itself. So it seems he was with God, came to Earth in an empty state, and is back with God in the glory he had with him before the universe existed.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Conclusion
Divine nature doesn’t make you God just as having a spirit doesn’t make you God. Yes God is divine, and He is spirit. But angels are spirits and they are not God and we can share in divine nature and we are not God. What we do know is this:
Jesus Christ existed with God before the world began as the Word. While he shared in divine nature with God, he emptied himself and became a man, even a baby who had to learn how to walk and talk like the rest of us. Providing the perfect sacrifice for our sins through his death, he is now with God at his righthand side in the glory he had with him before the world began. Now we who are in the flesh can be born of the Spirit and participate in this divine nature because Christ died for us.
We need to understand that there is a difference between being God who has divine nature and being a son who shares or inherits divine nature. Receiving the divine nature of God is a good description of being a son and chief among the sons of God is the Son of God himself. He reflects the fullness of God’s nature and glory in visible form from the invisible God.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Is Jesus God himself because he came from the Father and has the same nature?
We know that God’s nature is divine.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
We also know that there is only one God and He is the Father. God is a HE, not THEM. Let me explain.
Let’s look at this from a different perspective. Adam was the first man right? But did you know that the word for ‘man’ in Genesis is ‘adam’?
Technically speaking then, Eve is ‘adam’ but not ‘Adam’. It is written that God created man (adam) male and female. This means she is part of mankind, but is not Adam who was the first man. There is only one Adam. Well there are actually two now because Jesus became the new / second / final Adam.
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Back to divine nature now. Does having divine nature make you God? The answer is no if you look at the next scripture.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Notice how we who are born from God have his nature, but we are obviously not God and never will be. Jesus said the following:
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,”
Jesus acknowledges here indirectly that he is not the one true God. But we do know for sure that he is the son of that one true God though. Notice how he said that this truth is eternal life. It seems imperative then that we believe what he says if those words were eternal life. Further he said the following:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
So if we listen to Jesus, then we believe that he is the son of the one true God and not the one true God himself.
The Bible says very clearly that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
A begotten son inherits what is his father’s and that includes his nature, name and authority.
So Jesus Christ is God because he is the Son of God.
But He is not God the Father. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.So Jesus Christ is God because he is the Son of God.
But He is not God the Father. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.Let’s take your logic and apply it to another area where nature vs identity. See how it doesn’t work?
So Eve is Adam because she came from Adam.
But she is not Adam the first. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.What this example should say is this.
So Eve is man (adam) because she came from Adam.
But she is not Adam himself rather adam (man). Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.If people understood the difference between identity and nature, there would be no Trinity Doctrine.
@t8
Exactly as I have said…you did attack strawman!
Jesus is NOT God the Father!
Now let’s think about your argument.
Adam and Eve shared the same nature. Yes, of course.
Now tell me was Adam a superior being? Was Eve a lesser kind of being?
No, of course not! We are not stupid!
So Jesus is not a god. He is God just like His Father.
Thank you. You have proved that Jesus is God.
I’m sorry, but you can’t fool me.
One last question to all of you:
Can you say with Thomas and all other true Christians to Jesus: My Lord and my God! (John 20:28)
Yes or No?I can say that. I can say Jesus is my Lord and God is my Father.
But can you say that Jesus is not the only true God but is his actual son?
I think not.
If you say Jesus is the one true God, then he is not really the son of that one true God is he? He would be his own son.
Jesus said this is eternal life, so listen up.
“This is eternal life that you may know the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
Ask yourself Danny which one of us believes Jesus own words here which are eternal life.
When Jesus asked Peter who he was, did Peter answer in like manner as you or in like manner as myself?
But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
In like manner as myself Danny. Your answer would have been “You are God” and my answer is “you are the son of the living God”.
Was Adam a superior being? Not in nature, but in identity yes. He was the son of God.
Is Adam superior to us who share in divine nature? Yes. He is the son of God and the firstborn of all creation.
Once again, the confusion sits in the fact that people do not know the difference between nature and identity.
I will make it easy for you.
I am not Adam, but I am adam.
In other words, I am adam (man) in nature, but I do not identify as Adam, the first man.
Jesus came from the Father so would have the same nature which is divine. But he came from God which doesn’t make him the head of all. Scripture clearly shows us the headship and notice how you are teaching directly against it.
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
You have said that the man and the woman are the same and Jesus and God are the same. Whereas, my view is what Paul taught in the scripture above.
Danny Dabbs…….MY lord (adoni) “AND” MY GOD. (ADONIA) ,
ADONI…..a human ruler or Judge,
ADONIA…… ALMIGHTY GOD.
‘THE LORD (Adonia), ALMIGHTY GOD , said unto my lord (adoni) “human” ruler, sit on my right until I (ALMIGHTY GOD ), make your enimies your foot stool.
Check it out for yourself Danny.
Jesus himself said “the Father was “greater” then he”, Question is, do you believe Jesus or what man says?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
To all…..Jesus said, “many” would come in his name and decieve “many”, so preaching Jesus is WHERE the deception of the many are, they make their religion all about the Jesus, They preach him as their GOD and Worship him as such, but what Jesus himself taught us , was all about God and “His” words and WORKS.
Jesus gave “All” Glory to GOD THE FATHER, “FALSE TEACHERS GIVE “ALL” THE GLORY TO the man Jesus. But at the same time say they believe what Jesus said, they are completely void of the truth of God, because the Spirit of truth is not “in” them or they would know the difference, between who Jesus was and is, and who GOD THE FATHER WAS AND IS, IMO.
What they are doing is fulfilling what was prophesied to happen in the Churches by the Apostle Paul, in , 2ths2. They have turned the “IMAGE” of a man (Jesus) into their GOD.
BREAKING the First commandment, “you shall have “NO” other God besides me”, you shall make “NO” IMAGES of me in heaven above or earth beneath. THESE THINGS HAVE ALL TRINITARIAN IDOLATERS DONE., OVER THE PAST 2000 YEARS OF Christanity, causing the Church to fall away or (apostate itself), from God the Father, unto the human man (JESUS ), the anointed one.
Whose false teachings JESUS “himself” will destory at his return. 2THS2. It all there , for them who have eyes to see?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
@t8
2 Peter 1:4…The Geneva Study Bible commentary says:
“By the divine nature he means not the substance of the Godhead, but the partaking of those qualities, by which the image of God is restored in us.”Only Jesus shares the exact same nature as His Father. Because Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father. John 1:14
I hope that this clarifies the issue.
@t8
You are still attacking strawman and you still don’t get my point.
I don’t deny that God is the head of Christ.
And I don’t deny that man is the head of woman.
But being the head of someone doesn’t make you superior in being!
Let me make it easy for you.
The head of the woman is man. Ok.
But does this mean that the husband is a superior being to his wife?
The answer is obviously, “No.” The husband is greater than his wife by way of position but not by nature.
The same applies to the Father and the Son. The Father is greater by position, but not better by nature.
I’m not a Trinitarian, by the way. Stop attacking strawman. Thank you and God bless you.This answers your questions Danny. In short, Jesus is our brother and we will have a body like his. If we are not divine and do not possess divine nature but remain in the flesh, we will die. So let’s be clear. We will have a resurrection body. Currently yes, we have divine nature, except with our body as we are present in the flesh. We will be complete in the future.
Hi Proclaimer,
Good explanation! But I doubt that either Jodi or Gene will listen.
As they already have their minds made up. But good job anyways.Of course us receiving God’s divine nature doesn’t make us GOD,
any more than it made Jesus GOD who gives us this divine nature.It instead makes us adopted sons and Jesus the natural born “Son of GOD”
How odd that people just can’t seem to grasp what the bible really teaches!____________
God bless
Ed J@t8
But the Bible calls Jesus clearly the ONLY-begotten Son of God.
“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” 1 John 4:9
Only means only!
Yes Danny. He is the only one to come directly from the Father. While we are born into the family and become children of God by the new birth, Jesus will always be the first among us and the head.
The point is that we are one of him and he calls us brothers. He is not God and if he were, then why would he call us brothers. He would call us his children. God calls us children.
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