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Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,00:18) Gene, He denies the true meaning of certain words and instead puts his desires in them. He understands those same basic words in other places.
Hebrews 11:5
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)5 By faith Enoch was translated — not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well,
Luke 2:26
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)26 and it hath been divinely told him by the Holy Spirit — not to see death before he may see the Christ of the Lord.
“not to see death” is in both passages and yet T chooses to believe it two different ways because he does nit want to believe Enoch did not die.
translated = changes and in the change that occurs when the last trumpet sounds.
KI have shown you the scriptures that make it impossible for Enoch not being dead ,
but you do not believe the scriptures ;for Enoch it says “he was no more ”
i know that at certain point on verse cannot be clearly understood ;but what about the rest of God's words ,are they stand for nothing
Quote (terraricca @ June 20 2014,05:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,00:18) Gene, He denies the true meaning of certain words and instead puts his desires in them. He understands those same basic words in other places.
Hebrews 11:5
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)5 By faith Enoch was translated — not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well,
Luke 2:26
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)26 and it hath been divinely told him by the Holy Spirit — not to see death before he may see the Christ of the Lord.
“not to see death” is in both passages and yet T chooses to believe it two different ways because he does nit want to believe Enoch did not die.
translated = changes and in the change that occurs when the last trumpet sounds.
KI have shown you the scriptures that make it impossible for Enoch not being dead ,
but you do not believe the scriptures ;for Enoch it says “he was no more ”
i know that at certain point on verse cannot be clearly understood ;but what about the rest of God's words ,are they stand for nothing
T,What you have shown me is that you want the words ” not to see death” in Hebrews 11:5 to mean exactly the opposite as you know they mean in Luke 2:26. The rest is your misunderstanding. If you are not willing to see something as simple as the meaning of the words ” not to see death” then how will you understand and correct other things.
Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2014,19:53) i do not reject the fact that he went up to heaven ;what i say is that he died as a man of flesh
Show me the SCRIPTURE that says he “died as a man of flesh”.You cannot, because there isn't one. Plus, I thought the thing you were arguing is that Elijah and Enoch did NOT go to heaven, but instead died like every other man. Is this no longer the claim you are making?
1Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.See Pierre? Those who HAVE died will be raised. Those who haven't yet died will be changed. A living person who is CHANGED to an imperishable being doesn't ever die, Pierre. Instead, he is TRANSFORMED – without ever tasting death at all. (Matt 16:28; Phil 3:21)
Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2014,19:53) HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death……
See how the scripture YOU posted actually proves YOU wrong? Enoch did not “see death”. Translation: Enoch did not DIE.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2014,08:26) Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2014,19:53) i do not reject the fact that he went up to heaven ;what i say is that he died as a man of flesh
Show me the SCRIPTURE that says he “died as a man of flesh”.You cannot, because there isn't one. Plus, I thought the thing you were arguing is that Elijah and Enoch did NOT go to heaven, but instead died like every other man. Is this no longer the claim you are making?
1Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.See Pierre? Those who HAVE died will be raised. Those who haven't yet died will be changed. A living person who is CHANGED to an imperishable being doesn't ever die, Pierre. Instead, he is TRANSFORMED – without ever tasting death at all. (Matt 16:28; Phil 3:21)
Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2014,19:53) HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death……
See how the scripture YOU posted actually proves YOU wrong? Enoch did not “see death”. Translation: Enoch did not DIE.
Mike/Kerwin1)i do not deny that he went up ;
2) not SEE DEAD ;does not mean not dying ;
IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURES IT IS EXPLAINED HOW GOD WILL BRING ALL DEEDS ALL MEN INTO JUDGMENT AND FOR THOSE THAT DID GOOD WILL GO TO ETERNAL LIFE AND THE OTHERS WHO CARES ;NOW IF GOD ESTABLISH A WAY TO GO INTO RESURRECTION;; BY THE DEAD OF THE BODY AND THEN RESURRECTION THROUGH THE ONLY SON OF GOD ,THEN
ANSWER ME THIS ;WHY ARE TRYING TO BY PASS IT ; SCRIPTURES DO NOT BUT YOU DO ,
WAS IT WITH HIS FLESH EYES OR SPIRITUAL EYES OF UNDERSTANDING
IT WAS WITH HIS FLESHLY EYES ,RIGHT ???YES MORE QUESTION: CAN FLESH NOW INHERIT HEAVEN
ANSWER THAT QUESTION ;THEN WE WILL GO ON ;you never answered me any of you WHY DID HE WAS TAKEN ALIVE ,AND NOT DIE
WHY IT SAYS ;for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well, DOES NOT A LIVING BEING KNOWS AND IF HE IS NOT TO DIE ,WHY TELLING HIM THAT HE PLEASES YOU
WHEN YOU ANSWER THAT WE CAN GO ON ;
3)51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
WAS THIS SCRIPTURE IN EFFECT BEFORE CHRIST OR AFTER HIS DEAD
AFTER HIS DEAD NOT BEFORE ;Lk 23:45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.
Mt 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
Mt 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
Mt 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Mt 27:53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.i AM WAITING FOR ANSWERS
Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58)
Mike/Kerwin1)i do not deny that he went up ;
Good, then you are in agreement with scripture. And is it a normal occurrence for a person to “go up to heaven” when they die on earth? Or do they usually go to Sheol instead?Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58) 2) not SEE DEAD ;does not mean not dying
“Not tasting death” most certainly DOES mean “not dying”.Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58) NOW IF GOD ESTABLISH A WAY TO GO INTO RESURRECTION;; BY THE DEAD OF THE BODY AND THEN RESURRECTION THROUGH THE ONLY SON OF GOD ,THEN ANSWER ME THIS ;WHY ARE TRYING TO BY PASS IT ; SCRIPTURES DO NOT BUT YOU DO ,
Read this again. Perhaps you'll catch it this time:1Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.Pierre, do you understand that not all will die? Do you understand that some of those who are still alive when Jesus returns will not DIE, but instead will be CHANGED? YES or NO?
And if you DO understand that, then you'll also understand that we aren't “trying to bypass” anything at all. We are simply taking ALL of the scriptures into consideration – instead of only some of them.
Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58) MORE QUESTION: CAN FLESH NOW INHERIT HEAVEN
ANSWER THAT QUESTION ;THEN WE WILL GO ON ;
No, flesh cannot inherit heaven. I have never thought (or claimed) that Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven in a flesh body, Pierre.Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58) you never answered me any of you WHY DID HE WAS TAKEN ALIVE ,AND NOT DIE
I suppose both Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven instead of being allowed to die on earth because they were both extremely faithful servants of God. For whatever reason God had, He took them into heaven instead of letting them live out their lives on earth until they eventually died.Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58) WHY IT SAYS ;for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well, DOES NOT A LIVING BEING KNOWS AND IF HE IS NOT TO DIE ,WHY TELLING HIM THAT HE PLEASES YOU WHEN YOU ANSWER THAT WE CAN GO ON ;
When you write it so it makes sense, perhaps I'll be able to answer it.
Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,20:58)
3)51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.WAS THIS SCRIPTURE IN EFFECT BEFORE CHRIST OR AFTER HIS DEAD
After the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Why? Do you suppose God WASN'T capable of transforming a living human into a living heavenly being before Christ died………. and that God only “learned” how to do that after Christ died? If not, then what point are you making?Pierre, when scripture says Jehovah took Elijah into heaven in a whirlwind, tell me which part of that says Elijah DIED ON EARTH. In other words, where in the world would you come up with the conclusion that Elijah DIED ON EARTH from those words that were written?
Mike
1Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: 1) We will not all sleep,2) but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye,3) at the last trumpet. 4)For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.1) We will not all sleep
2) but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye
3) at the last trumpet.
4)For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
now see i number the things that are bring us to the understanding ; look at 1/2/3 then paid attention to what Paul says on #4″””the dead will be raised imperishable “””
to my understanding all flesh will die ;but the time we (our soul)will stay in wait this varies sins Abel until the end
Mike
Quote Do you suppose God WASN'T capable of transforming a living human into a living heavenly being before Christ died. it is not that God almighty can or cannot do ;God does things in a certain way ; and we cannot change that way ,if we do it shows we do not believe what he says or do ,but the truth as to be all within the whole scriptures ,it cannot be broken ;
we all know that the flesh will die if we go to heaven ,it will also die of old age if we stay unless we get run over by something ,
all the faithful who died died in the hope of the resurrection and the reward of life everlasting ;Da 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
it is the soul that rest ;but the flesh is gone ;to dust
Mike
Quote No, flesh cannot inherit heaven. I have never thought (or claimed) that Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven in a flesh body, Pierre. so we agree that they have died in the flesh ;so their soul went up to wait ;nothing wrong with that ;Enoch received what Daniel got from the angel ;
Da 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”T,
Quote 2) not SEE DEAD ;does not mean not dying ; IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURES IT IS EXPLAINED HOW GOD WILL BRING ALL DEEDS ALL MEN INTO JUDGMENT AND FOR THOSE THAT DID GOOD WILL GO TO ETERNAL LIFE AND THE OTHERS WHO CARES ;I am just handling this one point. Actually is does mean the person has not died yet. It is used in Luke 2:26 as well.
New American Standard Bible
And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.In this verse you can see that the man in question would not die until he had seen Jesus Christ.
The same words are used about Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 but without an exception. “not see Death” is a phrase that is always used in Scripture to mean not die.
Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,23:54) 4)For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. to my understanding all flesh will die ;but the time we (our soul)will stay in wait this varies sins Abel until the end
The dead will be RAISED imperishable………. we (those who are alive at the time) will be CHANGED.Not all will die. Those who HAVE died will be RAISED from the dead. Those who HAVEN'T yet died will be CHANGED.
So, living human beings can be CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings – WITHOUT ever having DIED.
Such was the case with Enoch and Elijah.
Quote (terraricca @ June 20 2014,00:04) Mike Quote Do you suppose God WASN'T capable of transforming a living human into a living heavenly being before Christ died. it is not that God almighty can or cannot do ;God does things in a certain way ; and we cannot change that way ,if we do it shows we do not believe what he says or do ,but the truth as to be all within the whole scriptures ,it cannot be broken ;
That's right. And the truth of scriptures is that God took Elijah to heaven in a whirlwind. If you want to believe his flesh “died”, then I'm okay with that.I understand it as his flesh was CHANGED in the twinkling of any eye – upon his ascension to heaven.
All others have died and went to SHEOL – not to heaven.
Enoch and Elijah are the two exceptions that we know about. One could also make a case for Moses, since he was there at Jesus' transfiguration – along with Elijah.
Quote (terraricca @ June 20 2014,00:10) Mike Quote No, flesh cannot inherit heaven. I have never thought (or claimed) that Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven in a flesh body, Pierre. so we agree that they have died in the flesh ;so their soul went up to wait ;nothing wrong with that ;Enoch received what Daniel got from the angel ;
In my understanding, virtually all men die, and their souls sleep in Sheol until the resurrection. Those souls do not go “to heaven”.So Enoch and Elijah are NOT the same as Daniel, who remains asleep in Sheol to this very day – awaiting the resurrection.
Enoch and Elijah NEVER went to sleep in Sheol, because they never actually DIED. They were taken from a living, conscious being on earth immediately to a living, conscious being in heaven. They never “slept”. They never stopped living. Their brains never stopped thinking. They were alive and conscious when God took them to heaven, and they remain alive and conscious to this very day……… unlike Daniel, who sleeps along with Samuel, Abraham, and all the others who have actually DIED.
Remember, Elijah and Enoch never actually DIED, Pierre. They were simply CHANGED from earthly beings to heavenly beings.
Mike,
I am pretty sure translated is a synonym of changed.
metatithemi means ” (a) I transfer, mid: I go over to another party, desert, (b) I change.”
Good work, Kerwin.
So it seems that Enoch and Elijah never actually DIED, but were CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings upon their ascension into heaven.
Just like those who are raised to a citizenship in heaven will also be CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings upon their ascension into heaven, right?
Just like Enoch was CHANGED into a glorious heavenly being when he went into the 10th heaven that one time, right?
Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,22:23) T, Quote 2) not SEE DEAD ;does not mean not dying ; IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURES IT IS EXPLAINED HOW GOD WILL BRING ALL DEEDS ALL MEN INTO JUDGMENT AND FOR THOSE THAT DID GOOD WILL GO TO ETERNAL LIFE AND THE OTHERS WHO CARES ;I am just handling this one point. Actually is does mean the person has not died yet. It is used in Luke 2:26 as well.
New American Standard Bible
And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.In this verse you can see that the man in question would not die until he had seen Jesus Christ.
The same words are used about Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 but without an exception. “not see Death” is a phrase that is always used in Scripture to mean not die.
kHeb11;5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God.(CJB)
PS 89:48 What man can live and not see death?
Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.
LK 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.now is your version of events in the whole scriptures reflect your view if yes say so and explain those scriptures;
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,10:01) Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2014,23:54) 4)For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. to my understanding all flesh will die ;but the time we (our soul)will stay in wait this varies sins Abel until the end
The dead will be RAISED imperishable………. we (those who are alive at the time) will be CHANGED.Not all will die. Those who HAVE died will be RAISED from the dead. Those who HAVEN'T yet died will be CHANGED.
So, living human beings can be CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings – WITHOUT ever having DIED.
Such was the case with Enoch and Elijah.
mikeyou assume that such was what happen to the two men,
i only know that those things you describe came in effect after Christ dead as i chowed you with scriptures
Pierre, when scripture says Jehovah took Elijah into heaven in a whirlwind, tell me which part of that says Elijah DIED ON EARTH.
In other words, where in the world would you come up with the conclusion that Elijah DIED ON EARTH from those words that were written?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,10:23) Good work, Kerwin. So it seems that Enoch and Elijah never actually DIED, but were CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings upon their ascension into heaven.
Just like those who are raised to a citizenship in heaven will also be CHANGED into glorious heavenly beings upon their ascension into heaven, right?
Just like Enoch was CHANGED into a glorious heavenly being when he went into the 10th heaven that one time, right?
Mike,Quote Just like Enoch was CHANGED into a glorious heavenly being when he went into the 10th heaven that one time, right? That is the opinion of some and I do not see where it conflicts from Scripture which testifies of at least three heavens.
I'm not arguing against the ten heavens, Kerwin. I'm giving you a polite nudge to REMIND you that Enoch had to have his body completely changed into a body like the glorious ones have, before he could enter the 10th heaven.
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