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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,00:50) Hi KW,
Do we have SIDES?
Nick,It is a word I used to express an idea you agree with so you tell me if we ate all physical, spiritual, or a combination of the two. Sides is a word I used to express the last teaching.
hi KW.
You say
“Yes the body is the tent of the spiritual side.”
So the body of a natural man encloses the soul enlivened by the spirit.” It is the spiritual side that gives life to the physical side.”
The spirit of man gives him life.
Of course the soul can be occupied by darkness or filled with the Holy Spirit.
Unless the latter happens when the man is resurrected his soul is naked but if it does then we have a new body like that of Jesus now.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2014,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:04) I did give you a source link and it is up to you to evidence that reveals a flaw in my reasoning instead of discounting it because you seem to remember a flaw.
I don't even know what point you're making, Kerwin. So how could I “discount it”?It seems to me you are teaching me about perfect and imperfect verbs, or whatever. Okay. What would you like to show me WITH that information?
Perhaps it's me and my ever-increasing lack of memory retention. Maybe it's because lately you don't seem to post my quote in your answer, so I can know what you're even addressing.
But no matter what the cause is, the conclusion is that I don't have any idea what those rules about perfects and imperfects have to do with anything.
In other words, like I asked in my last post, at which point is my understanding wrong BECAUSE OF this information?
What did I claim that was proven wrong because of that verb information you linked?
I'm lost to what we're even discussing at this time.
Mike,We started because you wanted to show me a scripture when no one had the narrower meaning of no human.
I have continued because the passage Jesus is clearly speaking of spiritual decent and ascent.
John 3:13
New English Translation (NET)13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
The word “except” means he is and exception to the rule.
The word combination “has ascended” means he has in the past ascended and is still there.
Providing it is Jesus' words he spoke to Nicodemus and that certainly the appearance then it follows Jesus was speaking of being in heaven at the same time he was physically on earth. The best biblical answer based on examples and other evidence is that he was spiritually in heaven and the same time he was physically on earth.
Another explanation is that it is John's comments and not Jesus' actual words.
hi KW,
These may help
3.Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?.John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man..Ephesians 4:9
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?.Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)They describe physical things
Nick,
God create man of the dust, and that man did not yet have a spiritual side. It is only when God breathed his breath into that physical man that that man gained a spiritual side.
Each side had a different origin. The origin of the physical side was earth but the origin of the spiritual side was heaven.
Nick,
I am not sure as Ephesians 4:9 is actually speaking of his soul descending to Sheol. Ephesians 4:10 is speaking of his ascension so that would be his body, soul, and spirit.
Hi KW,
Yes it speaks of his soul.
The same as his ascension but now covered in a heavenly body en route as happens with us.Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,08:21) Nick, God create man of the dust, and that man did not yet have a spiritual side. It is only when God breathed his breath into that physical man that that man gained a spiritual side.
Each side had a different origin. The origin of the physical side was earth but the origin of the spiritual side was heaven.
Hi KW,
The body created from dust is called man in genesis.
Then that dust became a living[spirit] soul [soul] by the breath of GodQuote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,11:44) Mike, Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So then, in your opinion, John DID see Jesus exactly as he is right now in heaven, but he didn't become like Jesus because the trump hadn't yet sounded? Yes.
I disagree. I think it is clear from the scripture that John hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he now is”.But either way, there is no need for the two of us to discuss this anymore.
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,12:07) Mike, Quote How is that different, Kerwin? Are you saying John already KNOWS exactly what he will be like, but that new body just hasn't yet been manifested so they can see it with their eyes? Close but it is not about seeing with just your eyes. It is more like to come into existence, as in your changed body will come into existence. With Jesus is is more about just showing up as no change is necessary for him as he already changed.
Again, I disagree. I think it's abundantly clear from the scripture that John didn't yet KNOW what he would be, because he HADN'T yet seen Jesus in his glorified state.Either way, there is no need for us to discuss it anymore.
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,12:32) Nicodemus wanted to know how a man could be saved and Jesus told him a human must be born of water and spirit to be saved. Titus 3:5 states that Paul and Titus were saved “through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit”.
That is salvation through birth of water and spirit just like Jesus told Nicodemus.
Once again, I disagree.Were Paul and Titus able to see the kingdom of God? Were they able to enter the kingdom of God as human beings? Did they cease to be flesh? Had they, at that time, become spirit, since they were born of Spirit?
Okay Kerwin,
Once again I've grown tired of this topic with you – like I did after a while in the private thread. If something new comes up, through my daily reading, or through another member of this site, I might pipe in again.
But it seems like you and I are right back were we were in the private thread. And there is no need to keep spinning our wheels.
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,15:15) The word combination “has ascended” means he has in the past ascended and is still there.
Ahhhh………….It's good to know WHAT you're on about, Kerwin.
From NETNotes:
The verb ascended is a perfect tense in Greek (ἀναβέβηκεν, anabebhken) which seems to look at a past, completed event.
A past, completed event would not necessarily mean Jesus, or whoever, REMAINED in heaven, like you said. If the perfect tense was used to say Gabriel had ascended to heaven at one particular time, that PARTICULAR ascension would have been a past, completed action – but it wouldn't prohibit Gabriel from having performed a thousand other different ascensions and descents from heaven. Ie: It wouldn't mean Gabriel has been stuck in heaven ever since that first perfect tense ascension.
They continue……..
(This is not as much of a problem for those who take Jesus’ words to end at v. 12, and these words to be a comment by the author, looking back on Jesus’ ascension.)
A very good and logical possibility – as we've discussed.
Although Jesus could be referring to a prior ascent, after an appearance as the preincarnate Son of Man…….
Another logical possibility for those who think Jesus was sometimes “the angel of Jehovah” in the OT.
……….more likely he is simply pointing out that no one from earth has ever gone up to heaven and come down again. The Son, who has come down from heaven, is the only one who has been ‘up’ there.
That makes the best sense of all of them.
At any rate, I disagree with your theory was Jesus was both “in heaven” and “on earth” at the same time.
Nor does your research into this matter change the ORIGINAL topic, which was the use of the Greek word “oudeis” for “no MAN”.
When John says, “oudeis” has seen God at any time, I still know that means only MEN, because angels are able to see God.
And John 3:13 proves me right, because the same word means “no MAN” in that verse as well. (It HAS TO, since we know angels ascend to, and descend from heaven all the time.)
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,15:16) Mike, I am trying to cut back on extraneous quotes.
Your choice, Kerwin.But if we have to post back and forth to each other five different times before I realize what you're even talking about, it might be better to just put my words in your response the first time.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2014,15:19) hi KW,
These may help
3.Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?.John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man..Ephesians 4:9
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?.Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)They describe physical things
3 of those 4 speak of Jesus' pre-existence, Nick.1. What is his name, and the name of his son?
2. Ephesians 4:9 NET ©
Now what is the meaning of “he ascended,” except that he also descended to the lower regions, namely, the earth?NIV ©
What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?NLT ©
Notice that it says “he ascended.” This means that Christ first came down to the lowly world in which we live.MSG ©
It's true, is it not, that the One who climbed up also climbed down, down to the valley of earth?3. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens…….
I just added the Ephesians verses to our database. Thanks.
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2014,15:27) Nick, I am not sure as Ephesians 4:9 is actually speaking of his soul descending to Sheol. Ephesians 4:10 is speaking of his ascension so that would be his body, soul, and spirit.
Well, he who ASCENDED first DESCENDED, Kerwin.Since he didn't DESCEND with a flesh body, then it's not likely he ASCENDED (all the way to heaven) with one either.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2014,15:32) Hi KW,
Yes it speaks of his soul.
The same as his ascension but now covered in a heavenly body en route as happens with us.
Agreed. As happened with Enoch and Elijah before Jesus, and as happens with some of us after Jesus.How do we know? Because flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It is a spirit realm, as opposed to earth, which is a flesh realm.
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