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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2014,00:29) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:37) Mike, The last Adam, aka the inner man, is a life given spirit just as Genesis bears witness.
Did you mean “life-giving“, Kerwin?If so, in what way is a person's “inner man” able to GIVE life to themselves or others?
Mike,Sorry, I did mean life-giving. Thank you for the correction.
As far as I know the life giving inner man does not give life to others. It does gives life to the outer man, who is made of earth.
Adam is more than his body and yet it is written “The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and God breathed into this man the breath of life and he became living. Without the breath he would not have a spiritual side and he would not be living. At best he be a non-animate body.
Mike,
The new heaven and new earth disagreement may actually be because we disagree on the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:1-4. I believe they speak of the creation of the heaven of God and you believe they speak of the sky. That stems from my belief that they sky was created on the second day. There was no atmosphere, no space, as all these thing are part of the sky. The laws of physics were not even completely written yet. You seem to disagree though I do not know the details.
I do know you stated you believe there were spirit armies of evil creatures in heaven that believers struggle against. I interpret it differently but those differences do not matter as in either the kingdom of God is not a place free from wickedness. So when wickedness is cleared from earth it will also be cleared from the heavens. That will be the new heaven and the new earth that is spoken of in Revelations and perhaps other places.
Mike,
Quote Did Paul specifically mention the man's EARTHLY FLESH BODY? He may have chosen to do so if he figured his readers might think anything else but since a human has a human body why would he specify what that body consisted of. If he was going to specify it, and I am not sure he would even then, it would be if the body was made of anything but the dust of the earth.
I am certain the man was a mortal man because Jesus went to heaven and this man Paul speaks of is not him.
I do not think that God would change a man to an immortal body just so that man can bring his body into heaven and then change him back. That just seems obscene.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,10:01) Hi KW,
So you make a dogma from what Paul did not know?
Nick,I chose not to claim something Paul states he does not know and I do not know if the man entered in body or out but I would be a fool to claim that no one can enter heaven in body at the same time I claimed I did not know if a certain man entered heaven in body or out.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,10:01) Hi KW,
So you make a dogma from what Paul did not know?
Nick,Are you basing your words on my final conclusion which is actually based on more evidence than Paul's words in 2 Corinthians to the effect he did not know if a man ascended to heaven in a body or not?
At the moment I am only trying to establish that humans can ascend to the present heaven in a mortal body or immortal body. I am not addressing the world to come.
Wakeup,
Quote He said: when you are born of the spirit; you are spirit. No, he instead said:
John 3:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We are also told:
Titus 3:5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
and:
John 1:13
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Trivia note: That wording refers to God's will as well as the Holy Ghost as a female or perhaps a hermaphrodite.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,12:51) 1) Scripture states the trump will sound and then the dead will be raised and we will be changed.
So then, in your opinion, John DID see Jesus exactly as he is right now in heaven, but he didn't become like Jesus because the trump hadn't yet sounded?In your understanding, John is saying that once we AGAIN see Jesus as he is, the trump will have sounded, and we will then be like Jesus is. Is that right?
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,12:51) 2) John does not say he does not know. What he instead says is “what we will be has not yet been revealed”.
Come on, man.
If it hasn't yet been REVEALED to you, then you don't yet KNOW it.John, will you look like a robot after the resurrection?
Well, I don't know, Mike……….. because what I will be hasn't yet been REVEALED to me.
How is that different, Kerwin? Are you saying John already KNOWS exactly what he will be like, but that new body just hasn't yet been manifested so they can see it with their eyes?
You are willing to give it as much twisting as it takes, aren't you Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,13:02) It does gives life to the outer man, who is made of earth.
Show me in scripture.Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,13:18) Mike, The new heaven and new earth disagreement may actually be because we disagree on the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:1-4. I believe they speak of the creation of the heaven of God and you believe they speak of the sky. That stems from my belief that they sky was created on the second day. There was no atmosphere, no space, as all these thing are part of the sky. The laws of physics were not even completely written yet. You seem to disagree though I do not know the details.
I do know you stated you believe there were spirit armies of evil creatures in heaven that believers struggle against. I interpret it differently but those differences do not matter as in either the kingdom of God is not a place free from wickedness. So when wickedness is cleared from earth it will also be cleared from the heavens. That will be the new heaven and the new earth that is spoken of in Revelations and perhaps other places.
So what are you saying, Kerwin? That Jesus taught Nicodemus he must be born again in order to enter the heaven that HAS all the wicked creatures…….. but Paul was teaching that flesh and blood cannot enter the heaven that has RID ITSELF of the wicked creatures?See? I STILL haven't the foggiest idea WHY we are even talking about this stuff. I am using up a lot of my time reading this stuff you wrote, but I still don't know WHY you're posting it in the first place.
What are you trying to prove to me with this stuff?
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,13:30) Mike, Quote Did Paul specifically mention the man's EARTHLY FLESH BODY? He may have chosen to do so if he figured his readers might think anything else but since a human has a human body why would he specify what that body consisted of.
Well for one, because Paul is the one who told us flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God. He is the one who distinguished the difference between the bodies of earth, which are made of dust, and the spiritual bodies of heaven.So that would lead me to believe that Paul DIDN'T expect anyone to think this man who went to heaven went in a FLESH AND BLOOD earthly body.
So when Paul says he doesn't know if the man was in body or out of body, I naturally assume he didn't know if the man had a bodily form while he was in heaven, or if he was just a conscience floating around looking at things.
I mean, John was in a bodily form when he was in heaven, right? But his flesh and blood earthly body never actually made the journey, did it?
That the man could be in heaven with his earthly flesh and blood body wouldn't even cross my mind, based on the other things Paul clearly taught us.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,13:48) No, he instead said: John 3:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And what statement did Jesus use those words to explain, Kerwin?“You must be born AGAIN to see or enter the kingdom of God.”
The words you quoted were used to explain that first statement he made. So the teaching is: “BECAUSE flesh can only give birth to more flesh, a human being must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh, namely, water and spirit, before they are able to see or enter into the kingdom of God.”
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:04) I did give you a source link and it is up to you to evidence that reveals a flaw in my reasoning instead of discounting it because you seem to remember a flaw.
I don't even know what point you're making, Kerwin. So how could I “discount it”?It seems to me you are teaching me about perfect and imperfect verbs, or whatever. Okay. What would you like to show me WITH that information?
Perhaps it's me and my ever-increasing lack of memory retention. Maybe it's because lately you don't seem to post my quote in your answer, so I can know what you're even addressing.
But no matter what the cause is, the conclusion is that I don't have any idea what those rules about perfects and imperfects have to do with anything.
In other words, like I asked in my last post, at which point is my understanding wrong BECAUSE OF this information?
What did I claim that was proven wrong because of that verb information you linked?
I'm lost to what we're even discussing at this time.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,06:05) Pierre, I believe those two things also. And even as I'm believing them, I also believe God literally sits on a throne that is next to the throne Jesus literally sits on.
Mikethe first one of us that know it for sure will tell the other ok ?
HI ,
2 peter 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
Tent or tabernacle flesh is just a temporary cover for the saved
Mike,
Quote So then, in your opinion, John DID see Jesus exactly as he is right now in heaven, but he didn't become like Jesus because the trump hadn't yet sounded? Yes.
Quote In your understanding, John is saying that once we AGAIN see Jesus as he is, the trump will have sounded, and we will then be like Jesus is. Is that right? No. For one many of his listeners never saw Jesus. More important is that Jesus will only appear as he is when he comes again. John seems to be using the fact Jesus will appear as he is as one part of a comparison. I know he isn't telling them they would be changed by the sight as John did see Jesus again and was not changed, Revelation. On the other hand they will change when he appears again and the trump sounds.
Note: I know you see those who appear but I have no better way to explain why John seeing Jesus in Revelation was not what John was speaking of in these verses.
Mike,
Quote How is that different, Kerwin? Are you saying John already KNOWS exactly what he will be like, but that new body just hasn't yet been manifested so they can see it with their eyes? Close but it is not about seeing with just your eyes. It is more like to come into existence, as in your changed body will come into existence. With Jesus is is more about just showing up as no change is necessary for him as he already changed.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2014,11:07) HI ,
2 peter 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
Tent or tabernacle flesh is just a temporary cover for the saved
Nick,Yes the body is the tent of the spiritual side. It is the spiritual side that gives life to the physical side. I think I already told Mike this in another thread so I see no need to repeat it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2014,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,13:18) Mike, The new heaven and new earth disagreement may actually be because we disagree on the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:1-4. I believe they speak of the creation of the heaven of God and you believe they speak of the sky. That stems from my belief that they sky was created on the second day. There was no atmosphere, no space, as all these thing are part of the sky. The laws of physics were not even completely written yet. You seem to disagree though I do not know the details.
I do know you stated you believe there were spirit armies of evil creatures in heaven that believers struggle against. I interpret it differently but those differences do not matter as in either the kingdom of God is not a place free from wickedness. So when wickedness is cleared from earth it will also be cleared from the heavens. That will be the new heaven and the new earth that is spoken of in Revelations and perhaps other places.
So what are you saying, Kerwin? That Jesus taught Nicodemus he must be born again in order to enter the heaven that HAS all the wicked creatures…….. but Paul was teaching that flesh and blood cannot enter the heaven that has RID ITSELF of the wicked creatures?See? I STILL haven't the foggiest idea WHY we are even talking about this stuff. I am using up a lot of my time reading this stuff you wrote, but I still don't know WHY you're posting it in the first place.
What are you trying to prove to me with this stuff?
Mike,I see no reason to cover all bases at once.
Nicodemus wanted to know how a man could be saved and Jesus told him a human must be born of water and spirit to be saved.
Titus 3:5 states that Paul and Titus were saved “through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit”.
That is salvation through birth of water and spirit just like Jesus told Nicodemus.
Nicodemus is concerned about his salvation not about what kind of body he would have.
Paul was speaking about a body and he was addressing the resurrection to come as he was speaking to those he hoped would take part in it.
Hopefully, we'll find out at the same time. 
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