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Wakeup,
Quote What Paul try to convey is that the body on earth and the heavenly bodies are not the same and for those reason need changes if one as to go from one place to the other I believe he means exactly what he states and then gives examples of different types of flesh. He never literally gives examples of different types of bodies though he does point out the glory of certain types of bodies is different that the glory of others. The only exception is that he does use the example of the seed and the plant that springs from it being two different types of body though they are the same creature.
So by using his three essential example I come to understand that the new body springs from the old, is a different type of flesh, and has a different glory.
Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,16:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:37)
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
Mike,I do not believe they were like Jesus. Humans have “flesh” just like Jellyfish but they are not alike. The fact Jesus was flesh and bone after he was resurrected does not mean his body was like the flesh and bone before his death. After all Paul teaches us not all flesh is the same. He also teaches us that the body that was before lacked glory that the body afterward had. He called the body before natural and the body afterwards Spiritual.
Kerwin,Even if what you said was true – that the “new flesh” was different from Jesus' “old flesh” – you are STILL missing the point. Because those disciples DID see Jesus in his “new flesh”, right? So WHY didn't they become like him right then and there?
Don't you get it? WHEN they finally see him AS HE IS, they will be like him.
They don't yet know WHAT they will be like, because they HAVEN'T yet seen him AS HE IS.
That means when they DID see Jesus for 40 days after the resurrection, they were NOT seeing Jesus “as he is NOW”………. or else they would have already KNOWN what they would be, and they would have already BEEN like Jesus is.
Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2014,16:49) K you are mixing simple things in a way that now you need engineering diploma to figure all your miss conception,
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,00:34) Hi KW,
So your speculations are valid?
Nick,I am addressing your speculation(assumption) and pointing out my lack of knowledge to wakeup at the same time. I did state one opinion and that is that Jesus had the scar from the spear on his side.
I think I also posted a similar message to you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,00:39) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,15:15) …..the sword coming out of the mouth is biblical imagery for a person using the mouth/words as a weapon.
You may be right. I also may be right. Time will tell.
Mike,I think the whole passage is biblical imagery but some such as white hair seems clearer than others which I do not recognize.
Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,16:54) Mike, Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit as he did between pre-change body and the post-change body. He spoke of the man who walked according to the flesh as the natural man and the man who walked according to the Holy Spirit as the Spiritual man. He then spoke of the pre-change body as the natural body and the post-change body as the Spiritual body.
Kerwin,A PERSON can be either led by Spirit, or not led by Spirit. That person who IS led by Spirit is a “spiritual person”. That is one meaning of the word “spiritual”.
But that meaning doesn't apply to a non-sentient flesh BODY, Kerwin.
So when Paul uses the words “spiritual BODY”, as opposed to a “body MADE OF DUST” – he is not using the meaning of “led by Spirit”.
A non-sentient flesh BODY can not possibly be “led by spirit”, and so YOUR idea of “spiritual body” cannot be realized.
Hi KW,
Would you believe if you put your fingers in the holes and your hand in his side?
Or not?It was a sign to Thomas
Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,17:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:46) Hi KW,
Jesus made plain that it was the SAME body showing them the holes still in it.
Nick,There is no evidence there were any holes in his body after his resurrection. Only marks were literally mentioned.
And what were those “marks” made from, Kerwin?How did those “marks” come to be on Jesus' resurrected body?
See, it doesn't matter if you want to go against the most logical understanding of Thomas placing his finger in the HOLE – because even if you insist it was a “mark”, and not a “hole”, the point remains that those MARKS were caused by Jesus' crucifixion – which means Jesus was raised in the same body that was crucified.
Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2014,00:02) K What Paul try to convey is that the body on earth and the heavenly bodies are not the same and for those reason need changes if one as to go from one place to the other
It really is just that simple, isn't it Pierre?
Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,12:31) But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
John 20
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
Thomas was talking about the marks left from the crucifixion, Kerwin. He wasn't talking about just touching Jesus anywhere. He wanted to observe the actual marks from the crucifixion.
John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”So the question to you is: Why would Jesus' NEW body have marks/scars/holes (whatever you want to call them) that were made on his OLD body?
Kerwin, do you suppose that a man with one leg will be resurrected with a new body that ALSO has only one leg?
You probably don't believe that. So why then would you believe that Jesus' “NEW” resurrected body would have the signs of torture from his “OLD” body?
It was the same body, Kerwin.
Hi,
Acts 13
30 But God raised him from the dead:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Mike,
Quote They don't yet know WHAT they will be like, because they HAVEN'T yet seen him AS HE IS. The word phaneroó translated “made known” in some translations is not speaking about knowledge except possibly when used figuratively.
Biblehub.com
Quote Definition: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known. “what we will be has not yet been revealed”, NET.
Quote Even if what you said was true – that the “new flesh” was different from Jesus' “old flesh” – you are STILL missing the point. Because those disciples DID see Jesus in his “new flesh”, right? So WHY didn't they become like him right then and there? Don't you get it? WHEN they finally see him AS HE IS, they will be like him.
It sounds like the reason that believers will change is that the see him as he is. The words “because” and “for” seem to imply that but my English skills are limited. In this case I believe appearances are deceptive as I more strongly believe our change will occur for other reasons than just seeing him.
The apostles did not change because the last trump had not been sounded, 1 Corinthians 15:52. It may happen when we see Christ as he is.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,00:56) Hi KW,
Would you believe if you put your fingers in the holes and your hand in his side?
Or not?It was a sign to Thomas
Nick,It Jesus wanted me to believe that it would have been written or at least implied. As it is he wanted me to believe he was raised from the dead in a living human body.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,01:10) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,12:31) But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
John 20
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
Thomas was talking about the marks left from the crucifixion, Kerwin. He wasn't talking about just touching Jesus anywhere. He wanted to observe the actual marks from the crucifixion.
John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”So the question to you is: Why would Jesus' NEW body have marks/scars/holes (whatever you want to call them) that were made on his OLD body?
Kerwin, do you suppose that a man with one leg will be resurrected with a new body that ALSO has only one leg?
You probably don't believe that. So why then would you believe that Jesus' “NEW” resurrected body would have the signs of torture from his “OLD” body?
It was the same body, Kerwin.
Mike,I see Thomas' demands as unreasonable but God meant them anyways. I do not believe Thomas was asking to place his finger in an open wound or thrust his hand into one. I do believe the mark that Thomas touched on Jesus' hands was a scar. It sounds reasonable that he may also have been talking thrusting his hand into Jesus' side to feel the wound there but it was not written why he said he would not believe until he thrust his hand into Jesus' side.
Mike,
Quote
It was the same body, Kerwin.It was the same body but changed just as a plant springs from a seed so the new body arises from the old.
Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,13:42) It sounds reasonable that he may also have been talking thrusting his hand into Jesus' side to feel the wound there but it was not written why he said he would not believe until he thrust his hand into Jesus' side.
He wanted to see and touch the actual wounds from Jesus' crucifixion – in order to believe it was truly Jesus, and that he was truly raised from the dead.My question to you is: Why would Jesus' “new” body have the marks of corruption that were inflicted upon his “old” body?
There is no reason to think our new resurrection bodies will have all the marks, scars, flaws, etc. that our original bodies of dust have now.
And the fact that Jesus was resurrected in a body that DID have those old scars, marks, and flaws tells us that he was resurrected in the SAME body in which he died.
He no longer has that body, Kerwin. He needed it for 40 days after the resurrection, but he now has a spiritual body that is not “made from the earth”.
Paul expressed his hope for his lowly earthly flesh body to be transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus now has.
John saw Jesus' resurrected body – but didn't know what he would be because he HADN'T yet seen Jesus as he now is.
What Jesus is now hadn't yet been revealed to John and the others.
Jesus is different now than he was for those 40 days on earth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,08:29) Hi kw,
“Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit “1 Corinthians 2:14-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
A little different and certainly not directly derived
Do you have any better ones?
Nick,That is the way Paul used his words but Ezekiel foretells a time when God will remove our hearts of stone and give us a new heart and a new spirit.
That time is here and has been here since Jesus signed the new covenant with his blood and empowered it by the Holy Spirit.
Mark 12:30
New English Translation (NET)30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
In this case heat means the spirit part of the tri-nature of man but in other cases it seems to be the soul.
Caleb is said to have a different spirit that the rest of the Israelites of his time, Numbers 14:22-24, and yet his spirit was as dirty rags, Isaiah 64:6, to the spirit of those that enter the new covenant. So all men new Spirit.
Those that are let by the Spirit are Spiritual men and have the new spirit while those that are led by the flesh are natural men and have the old spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,00:56) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,16:54) Mike, Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit as he did between pre-change body and the post-change body. He spoke of the man who walked according to the flesh as the natural man and the man who walked according to the Holy Spirit as the Spiritual man. He then spoke of the pre-change body as the natural body and the post-change body as the Spiritual body.
Kerwin,A PERSON can be either led by Spirit, or not led by Spirit. That person who IS led by Spirit is a “spiritual person”. That is one meaning of the word “spiritual”.
But that meaning doesn't apply to a non-sentient flesh BODY, Kerwin.
So when Paul uses the words “spiritual BODY”, as opposed to a “body MADE OF DUST” – he is not using the meaning of “led by Spirit”.
A non-sentient flesh BODY can not possibly be “led by spirit”, and so YOUR idea of “spiritual body” cannot be realized.
Mike,God used his Spirit to create the physical creation of earth and yet you have trouble comprehending that it can rule the physical by its power as well as create it.
You are inadvertently limiting God's spirit when it has no such limits. That is why it can give the give of healing and other gifts that affect the physical creation.
Giving eternal life to a body is nothing to that which is used to employ the power of God. That is how Jesus was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead, Romans 1:4.
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