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Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:21) Journey, Do you believe Jesus has a sword for a tongue?
She already said she doesn't in her post, Kerwin.I'm not so sure. I don't think it's too far-fetched for Jesus to appear as he is described by John in Revelation (he describes himself the same way in chapters 2 and 3)……… sword and all.
If Jehovah can “appear” as a pillar of cloud and fire, then why can't Jesus appear as if there is a long sword protruding from his mouth?
This is just how I understand it. I could be wrong.
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:23) Mike, A body serves different tasks the a spirit and the Spirit has different effects on a body than is does on a spirit.
You are missing the point, Kerwin.Which part of a man chooses to either follow God, or not?
Isn't it the “inner man” that makes those kinds of choices? Isn't it the man's spirit, soul, mind, and emotions that decide? Which of those is part of a human BODY? Which of those is FLESH?
That's why I say a PERSON can be “spiritual”, in the sense of following God. A flesh BODY cannot.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,05:51) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,22:33) You clearly did not read the what the link I gave you said about the perfect and aorist.
Yeah,I very rarely check out the links people provide here. Especially yours… since your links are often to a site that lists a bunch of mind-numbing mumbo-jumbo that AT BEST, might make it possible for you to understand certain scriptural words in the least likely way they could be understood.
Remember my “cherry is red” analogy from a while back? The most logical understanding of the words is that the fruit called a “cherry” is “red” in color. But you will link me to some sites that show me that the word “cherry” could mean “dress”, and that the word “red” could mean “elevated”. And then you will lay your “brilliant” conclusion on me that the words mean “the dress is elevated” – even though those words are complete and utter nonsense in the scriptural context we were discussing.
So you see, I don't really care about a link that tells me “cherry” could mean “dress”, and “red” could mean “elevated” – because I can already understand the LOGICAL meaning of the words from the context in which they were written in the scripture. And since it is already abundantly clear that this scripture was talking about a red-colored cherry, why would I be interested in finding out that it's possible to twist it into talking about an “elevated dress” instead?
So………. if there is anything critical in that link, just post it in a sentence or two.
But what's the best you can hope for anyway, Kerwin? That the words “who is in heaven” ARE in the original, and that they WERE said by Jesus himself? What will you prove with that knowledge? That you believe Jesus was “spiritually in heaven” the whole time he was “physically on earth”? What then? Which of my understandings will you refute with that knowledge?
In other words, why are you even talking about this one verse?
Mike,I did post what I could but the link has a good table and I am not sure how to post a table so it looks like a table and not a pile of words.
The perfect tense of ascend is past tense and speaks of an ongoing result of the action.
For example “The grass has grown taller” is equivalent to the perfect tense and tells us not only that the grass has grown taller but the it is still taller. A simple past on the other has such as the grass grew taller tells us the grass has grown taller but it may or may not still be taller.
So in short anyone that has ascended to heaven would still be in heaven. Translators like to use “but” or “except” which implies Jesus is one of those that ascended to heaven. If you go by that he is currently in heaven at the time he was speaking to Nicodemus on earth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:14) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:29) Mike, I instead believe that no one mean both angels and men and that they do not see God because he is invisible. Neither the eyes of a body nor of the soul can see God as he has no visual similitude.
I realize that is what you believe, Kerwin.You just won't be able to use John 1:18 as a “proof” for that belief, since I've shown you another use of the Greek word “oudeis”, in which it is clear that ONLY human beings are meant.
Nor have you ever shown anything that would refute my belief that God does have a form, and is visible to spirit beings like angels.
So, where does that leave us? I have many scriptures that describe God's face, hair, legs, feet, hands, etc. I have scriptures that describe Him sitting on a throne right next to Jesus. I have logic that says: If Jesus has a form and sits on a throne, then why would the God who sits on a throne right beside Jesus NOT have a form?
You choose to believe those descriptions are metaphorical – and I take them literally.
It seems we are once again at an impasse.
Mike,I was actually just stating my believe to counterbalance my assessment of your own less someone think I supported yours.
It is interesting how you came up a solution to the mystery that stems from your belief God has an outward form based on the testimony of men which you believe cannot see God.
Your solution is that men have seen God with the eyes of their soul but not the eyes of their body and John 1:18 was only saying men have not seen them with the eyes of the body. No real support for that hypothesis but it sounds reasonable.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,05:57) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,22:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,12:48) Mike, Jesus did not come to save angels so it does not refer to angels.
Don't know what you're talking about – since you didn't bother to post my quote.
Mike,You asked me if no one meant angels as well as humans and that is the answer I gave.
Okay,Now I know what you're talking about. So what you're saying is that you AGREE with me that the Greek word for “no one” really just refers to human beings in that verse, right?
And that means the same word could also refer to “only human beings” in John 1:18, right?
And that means you have no ammo left to shoot down my understanding that angels do indeed literally see God, right?
Good. Glad we cleared that all up.
Mike,Yes, I agree with you. The only context in John 1:18 that John was only speaking of human being is that John was speaking to human beings. That is questionable evidence. Of course there is unwritten context which I don't necessary have knowledge of.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:43) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:21) Journey, Do you believe Jesus has a sword for a tongue?
She already said she doesn't in her post, Kerwin.I'm not so sure. I don't think it's too far-fetched for Jesus to appear as he is described by John in Revelation (he describes himself the same way in chapters 2 and 3)……… sword and all.
If Jehovah can “appear” as a pillar of cloud and fire, then why can't Jesus appear as if there is a long sword protruding from his mouth?
This is just how I understand it. I could be wrong.
Mike,God gives each of this the form each of us desire but the sword coming out of the mouth is biblical imagery for a person using the mouth/words as a weapon. Jesus speaks the word of God and since it is easier to destroy than to create he has no need of a sword.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is.
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
Mike,I do not believe they were like Jesus. Humans have “flesh” just like Jellyfish but they are not alike. The fact Jesus was flesh and bone after he was resurrected does not mean his body was like the flesh and bone before his death. After all Paul teaches us not all flesh is the same. He also teaches us that the body that was before lacked glory that the body afterward had. He called the body before natural and the body afterwards Spiritual.
Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is.
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
Mike,I do not believe they were like Jesus. Humans have “flesh” just like Jellyfish but they are not alike. The fact Jesus was flesh and bone after he was resurrected does not mean his body was like the flesh and bone before his death. After all Paul teaches us not all flesh is the same. He also teaches us that the body that was before lacked glory that the body afterward had. He called the body before natural and the body afterwards Spiritual.
Kyou are mixing simple things in a way that now you need engineering diploma to figure all your miss conception,
Christ says many things that means the same thing but uses different wording to say it ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:23) Mike, A body serves different tasks the a spirit and the Spirit has different effects on a body than is does on a spirit.
You are missing the point, Kerwin.Which part of a man chooses to either follow God, or not?
Isn't it the “inner man” that makes those kinds of choices? Isn't it the man's spirit, soul, mind, and emotions that decide? Which of those is part of a human BODY? Which of those is FLESH?
That's why I say a PERSON can be “spiritual”, in the sense of following God. A flesh BODY cannot.
Mike,Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit as he did between pre-change body and the post-change body. He spoke of the man who walked according to the flesh as the natural man and the man who walked according to the Holy Spirit as the Spiritual man. He then spoke of the pre-change body as the natural body and the post-change body as the Spiritual body.
Hi KW,
You say
“Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit “
Scriptures pleaseQuote (terraricca @ May 24 2014,04:49) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is.
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
Mike,I do not believe they were like Jesus. Humans have “flesh” just like Jellyfish but they are not alike. The fact Jesus was flesh and bone after he was resurrected does not mean his body was like the flesh and bone before his death. After all Paul teaches us not all flesh is the same. He also teaches us that the body that was before lacked glory that the body afterward had. He called the body before natural and the body afterwards Spiritual.
Kyou are mixing simple things in a way that now you need engineering diploma to figure all your miss conception,
Christ says many things that means the same thing but uses different wording to say it ,
T,Actually, I am using many words to make the point “all flesh is not the same”. My example of a Jellyfish is not the best as they are basic a mobile plant of the animal kingdom. I am not even sure they are a souled creature as they lack blood or brains. It makes my point as they are commonly said to have flesh.
Paul makes the same point but with more general and less extreme examples.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:59) Hi KW,
You say
“Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit “
Scriptures please
Nick,1 Corinthians 2:14-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:46) Hi KW,
Jesus made plain that it was the SAME body showing them the holes still in it.
Nick,There is no evidence there were any holes in his body after his resurrection. Only marks were literally mentioned.
Hi kw,
“Paul uses the same words to contrast the spirit not led by the Holy Spirit and the spirit let by the Holy Spirit “1 Corinthians 2:14-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
A little different and certainly not directly derived
Do you have any better ones?Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,05:01) Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2014,04:49) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,04:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,06:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is.
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
Mike,I do not believe they were like Jesus. Humans have “flesh” just like Jellyfish but they are not alike. The fact Jesus was flesh and bone after he was resurrected does not mean his body was like the flesh and bone before his death. After all Paul teaches us not all flesh is the same. He also teaches us that the body that was before lacked glory that the body afterward had. He called the body before natural and the body afterwards Spiritual.
Kyou are mixing simple things in a way that now you need engineering diploma to figure all your miss conception,
Christ says many things that means the same thing but uses different wording to say it ,
T,Actually, I am using many words to make the point “all flesh is not the same”. My example of a Jellyfish is not the best as they are basic a mobile plant of the animal kingdom. I am not even sure they are a souled creature as they lack blood or brains. It makes my point as they are commonly said to have flesh.
Paul makes the same point but with more general and less extreme examples.
KWhat Paul try to convey is that the body on earth and the heavenly bodies are not the same and for those reason need changes if one as to go from one place to the other
Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,10:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:46) Hi KW,
Jesus made plain that it was the SAME body showing them the holes still in it.
Nick,There is no evidence there were any holes in his body after his resurrection. Only marks were literally mentioned.
Kerwin.John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand,
***and thrust it into my side***:
and be not faithless, but believing.Into my side. Into the spear wound.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 24 2014,16:43) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,10:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:46) Hi KW,
Jesus made plain that it was the SAME body showing them the holes still in it.
Nick,There is no evidence there were any holes in his body after his resurrection. Only marks were literally mentioned.
Kerwin.John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand,
***and thrust it into my side***:
and be not faithless, but believing.Into my side. Into the spear wound.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Quote Into the spear wound. Nick assumes that but it is not written. What is written could mean no more than Thomas asking to poke Jesus in the side with his hand.
The word “in” does not necessary mean that the flesh is penetrated.
As it is written, I cannot even say he was speaking of the mark of the spear even though I believe there well might have been at least a scar there.
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