- This topic has 3,120 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:44) Mike, Quote Face it Kerwin, it would have been illogical for Jesus to say he was CURRENTLY in heaven while he was talking to Nicodemus and the apostles. Then Jesus makes quite a few illogical statements as he said quite often that he was in Jehovah, and God is in heaven.
Kerwin,I don't know if you SERIOUSLY don't see the difference between what I said and what you said……… or if you're just messing with me.
IF the words “who is in heaven” are legit the way I just wrote them, then they were obviously a parenthetical statement by John, who knew Jesus was in heaven years later, by the time John wrote his gospel.
But there are just as many (if not more) mss that have “who WAS in heaven”, or “who is FROM heaven”, or just omit the phrase altogether.
Will you really attempt to use those words to try and PROVE something?
If so, what exactly will you use those words to prove to me? How will you use them to refute anything that I've said?
I'm listening…………….
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2014,08:45) Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:57) Mike, In chapter 12 we are told that after Enoch was hidden from men he went to live with the holy ones.
And?
Mike,That would be angels as he was hidden from all human being and not only Seth's line. Of course the only reason I conclude that is Scripture states he was not found.
I have no idea what you're talking about – or what point you are trying to show me here.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) Mike, John 1:18 states no one has seen God. You say that is only speaking of physical eyes and not the eyes of the soul, both which can see outward likeness.
Close. I say it is speaking of the physical FLESH eyes of human beings – not the physical eyes of angels.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) These men that saw Jehovah with the eyes of their soul then made his similitude known. They did it before “the only Son” was conceived on earth to make God known. Do I have what you believe correct?
Yes. There are MANY men in the OT that “made God known” to others, Kerwin. Moses, David, Samuel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Elijah………………Jesus took it even farther, and shed even more light on God than these other men could……… because Jesus had the advantage of already having spent many, many years in God's presence before ever being made into the likeness of a human being.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,12:48) Mike, Jesus did not come to save angels so it does not refer to angels.
Don't know what you're talking about – since you didn't bother to post my quote.Mike,
Quote IF the words “who is in heaven” are legit the way I just wrote them, then they were obviously a parenthetical statement by John, who knew Jesus was in heaven years later, by the time John wrote his gospel. You clearly did not read the what the link I gave you said about the perfect and aorist.
You also did not listen to what I wrote since you did not address.
That means you dismissed the evidence out of hand.
You are just speaking without and evidence to support your opinion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,12:48) Mike, Jesus did not come to save angels so it does not refer to angels.
Don't know what you're talking about – since you didn't bother to post my quote.
Mike,You asked me if no one meant angels as well as humans and that is the answer I gave.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:54) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) Mike, John 1:18 states no one has seen God. You say that is only speaking of physical eyes and not the eyes of the soul, both which can see outward likeness.
Close. I say it is speaking of the physical FLESH eyes of human beings – not the physical eyes of angels.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) These men that saw Jehovah with the eyes of their soul then made his similitude known. They did it before “the only Son” was conceived on earth to make God known. Do I have what you believe correct?
Yes. There are MANY men in the OT that “made God known” to others, Kerwin. Moses, David, Samuel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Elijah………………Jesus took it even farther, and shed even more light on God than these other men could……… because Jesus had the advantage of already having spent many, many years in God's presence before ever being made into the likeness of a human being.
Mike,So basically you are claiming that those who saw God saw his visual similitude with the eyes of their soul and John was speaking of the eyes of their flesh in order to support the evidence of men who seem to you to have seen God's visual similitude.
The only evidence being the desire to resolve an apparent contradiction.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,13:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2014,20:45) Lets address your “knowledge” assumption. As Nick would say, If John didn't then why do you presume to know? You seem to be just trying to make a point and not keep consistent within your own doctrine.
Kerwin,1 John 3:2 isn't the verse that gives us a hint about what we will be like.
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.
Hi MikeWhat you say is true. Jesus did not show them as he really is. Revelations gives his true form in exact appearance.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
This would be his true appearance.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
This is the symbolism part, because we know that the two edged sword coming out of his mouth is the Word of God, how powerful it would be when he speaks, and it will cut through anything….His bright countenance would be real.
Quote The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
This scripture you gave should settle any dispute.
K
Quote Jesus did not come to save angels so it does not refer to angels. true ,Jesus will return and save the men that as believe in him ,and settle the scores with the angels that rebelled and their demon offspring
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2014,20:45) Lets address your “knowledge” assumption. As Nick would say, If John didn't then why do you presume to know? You seem to be just trying to make a point and not keep consistent within your own doctrine.
Kerwin,1 John 3:2 isn't the verse that gives us a hint about what we will be like.
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.
The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is. All we are told that a time will come when they see him as he is. The most that can be implied is they do not currently see him as he is and will not see him as he is until their body changes to be like his.
Quote (journey42 @ May 21 2014,14:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,13:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2014,20:45) Lets address your “knowledge” assumption. As Nick would say, If John didn't then why do you presume to know? You seem to be just trying to make a point and not keep consistent within your own doctrine.
Kerwin,1 John 3:2 isn't the verse that gives us a hint about what we will be like.
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.
Hi MikeWhat you say is true. Jesus did not show them as he really is. Revelations gives his true form in exact appearance.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
This would be his true appearance.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
This is the symbolism part, because we know that the two edged sword coming out of his mouth is the Word of God, how powerful it would be when he speaks, and it will cut through anything….His bright countenance would be real.
Quote The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
This scripture you gave should settle any dispute.
Journey,Do you believe Jesus has a sword for a tongue?
Quote Isaiah 49:2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;I am not sure of the context of the next one but it about using words as swords.
Psalm 55:21
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart:
his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2014,16:23) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,07:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2014,02:37) Hi KW
“Body of this death”
Nick,Spiritual dead. That is why he is alive in his mind at the same time.
Hi KW
Rom 7
“24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
BODY OF THIS DEATH
not spiritually deadDoes spiritually dead appear in scripture?
Kerwin,How can a BODY be either “spiritual” or “unspiritual” in the way you want to use those words?
A PERSON can be “spiritual” or “unspiritual”, in the sense of walking in the ways of God.
But not a BODY.
Mike,A body serves different tasks the a spirit and the Spirit has different effects on a body than is does on a spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,10:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:54) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) Mike, John 1:18 states no one has seen God. You say that is only speaking of physical eyes and not the eyes of the soul, both which can see outward likeness.
Close. I say it is speaking of the physical FLESH eyes of human beings – not the physical eyes of angels.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,11:56) These men that saw Jehovah with the eyes of their soul then made his similitude known. They did it before “the only Son” was conceived on earth to make God known. Do I have what you believe correct?
Yes. There are MANY men in the OT that “made God known” to others, Kerwin. Moses, David, Samuel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Elijah………………Jesus took it even farther, and shed even more light on God than these other men could……… because Jesus had the advantage of already having spent many, many years in God's presence before ever being made into the likeness of a human being.
Mike,So basically you are claiming that those who saw God saw his visual similitude with the eyes of their soul and John was speaking of the eyes of their flesh in order to support the evidence of men who seem to you to have seen God's visual similitude.
The only evidence being the desire to resolve an apparent contradiction.
Mike,I instead believe that no one mean both angels and men and that they do not see God because he is invisible. Neither the eyes of a body nor of the soul can see God as he has no visual similitude. He is made known in other ways such as when Jesus made him known to Phillip and others.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,22:33) You clearly did not read the what the link I gave you said about the perfect and aorist.
Yeah,I very rarely check out the links people provide here. Especially yours… since your links are often to a site that lists a bunch of mind-numbing mumbo-jumbo that AT BEST, might make it possible for you to understand certain scriptural words in the least likely way they could be understood.
Remember my “cherry is red” analogy from a while back? The most logical understanding of the words is that the fruit called a “cherry” is “red” in color. But you will link me to some sites that show me that the word “cherry” could mean “dress”, and that the word “red” could mean “elevated”. And then you will lay your “brilliant” conclusion on me that the words mean “the dress is elevated” – even though those words are complete and utter nonsense in the scriptural context we were discussing.
So you see, I don't really care about a link that tells me “cherry” could mean “dress”, and “red” could mean “elevated” – because I can already understand the LOGICAL meaning of the words from the context in which they were written in the scripture. And since it is already abundantly clear that this scripture was talking about a red-colored cherry, why would I be interested in finding out that it's possible to twist it into talking about an “elevated dress” instead?
So………. if there is anything critical in that link, just post it in a sentence or two.
But what's the best you can hope for anyway, Kerwin? That the words “who is in heaven” ARE in the original, and that they WERE said by Jesus himself? What will you prove with that knowledge? That you believe Jesus was “spiritually in heaven” the whole time he was “physically on earth”? What then? Which of my understandings will you refute with that knowledge?
In other words, why are you even talking about this one verse?
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,22:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,09:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,12:48) Mike, Jesus did not come to save angels so it does not refer to angels.
Don't know what you're talking about – since you didn't bother to post my quote.
Mike,You asked me if no one meant angels as well as humans and that is the answer I gave.
Okay,Now I know what you're talking about. So what you're saying is that you AGREE with me that the Greek word for “no one” really just refers to human beings in that verse, right?
And that means the same word could also refer to “only human beings” in John 1:18, right?
And that means you have no ammo left to shoot down my understanding that angels do indeed literally see God, right?
Good. Glad we cleared that all up.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,22:42) Mike, So basically you are claiming that those who saw God saw his visual similitude with the eyes of their soul and John was speaking of the eyes of their flesh in order to support the evidence of men who seem to you to have seen God's visual similitude.
The only evidence being the desire to resolve an apparent contradiction.
I don't know anything about any “eyes of the soul”, but YES, men have seen God in visions and dreams, but not with their flesh human eyeballs.You say it is a “contradiction”, but consider the following:
1. Last night in my dream, I was in Paris, observing the raw beauty of the Eiffel Tower.
2. I have never been to Paris, and have therefore never seen the Eiffel Tower.
Does #1 really contradict #2, Kerwin? Or are you smart enough to know the difference between seeing the Eiffel Tower in my dream, and literally seeing the Eiffel Tower?
In the “Visions” section of this site, t8 describes seeing heaven in a vision. Do you think t8 has ever LITERALLY seen heaven with his flesh human eyes?
So when John, who was most likely familiar with the visions described in the OT, said that no one had ever seen God – I think it's fairly obvious that John was talking about a human being literally seeing God with his flesh human eyes.
Of course, you have the right to believe that John was contradicting those OT visions of God if you want to. For me, there isn't a contradiction, or a problem.
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:29) Mike, I instead believe that no one mean both angels and men and that they do not see God because he is invisible. Neither the eyes of a body nor of the soul can see God as he has no visual similitude.
I realize that is what you believe, Kerwin.You just won't be able to use John 1:18 as a “proof” for that belief, since I've shown you another use of the Greek word “oudeis”, in which it is clear that ONLY human beings are meant.
Nor have you ever shown anything that would refute my belief that God does have a form, and is visible to spirit beings like angels.
So, where does that leave us? I have many scriptures that describe God's face, hair, legs, feet, hands, etc. I have scriptures that describe Him sitting on a throne right next to Jesus. I have logic that says: If Jesus has a form and sits on a throne, then why would the God who sits on a throne right beside Jesus NOT have a form?
You choose to believe those descriptions are metaphorical – and I take them literally.
It seems we are once again at an impasse.
Quote (journey42 @ May 21 2014,02:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,13:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.
Hi MikeWhat you say is true. Jesus did not show them as he really is. Revelations gives his true form in exact appearance.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
This would be his true appearance.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
This is the symbolism part, because we know that the two edged sword coming out of his mouth is the Word of God, how powerful it would be when he speaks, and it will cut through anything….His bright countenance would be real.
Hi journey,I agree with all you said……. except for I am undecided about the sword. If you picture Jesus returning with that completely AWESOME and SCARY appearance, then I don't think it's out of the question that he will indeed appear as if a sword is coming out of his mouth.
Imagine Godzilla breathing out fire from his mouth – except in Jesus' case, the fire takes the form of a sword as it wreaks destruction.
Revelation 2:12
To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.I wouldn't go as far as to INSIST upon my understanding of the sword, but I don't see why not. As for the rest, I agree with you.
Quote (journey42 @ May 21 2014,02:00) 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. This scripture you gave should settle any dispute.
You would certainly THINK so.Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,11:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2014,08:50)
All you need to take away from 1 John 3:2 is that the body Jesus now has is not the body he dwelled on earth with for 40 days after his resurrection.The disciples saw him for those 40 days, yet John said he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Mike,I think you are getting confused by the word known is some translations. The translators are not wrong but they were using a different meaning than you are.
1 John 3:2
New English Translation (NET)2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
There is nothing about knowledge in the verse. It is about being made known or in other words revealed.
There is no words that say whether or not John and/or his hearers have ever in the past seen Jesus as he currently is.
Kerwin,WHEN they see him as he is, they WILL be like him. Why weren't they ALREADY like him when they saw him for the 40 days he remained on earth?
Because they HADN'T yet seen him as he is.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
