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Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2014,09:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,07:51) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,11:01)
It makes more sense in context of which it is used in Hebrews as then both messengers and ministers are angels and not just the messengers as angels and the ministers are left as non-angels extras that were mentioned anyways.
Not necessarily, Kerwin.Remember that both the Hebrew and Greek words we translate as “angel” literally mean “messenger”. And remember that Paul said angels are MINISTERING spirits. So there you have one group of people who are both “messengers” AND “ministers”.
What's more, we have a scriptural example of one of God's angels LITERALLY turning into flame right before Manoah's eyes.
And we have Jesus telling us that the angels are “like the wind”.
Mike,I understand the rule you speak of but I do not see it applying as ministers is not used for a synonymy for angels in Scripture I know of.
You can't find a scripture where “minister” is a synonym for “angel”, so therefore my point is null?
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?There. A scripture that tells you angels are ministers – sent to serve – which is what “minsters” do, right?
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,10:49) Mike, Revelation specifically, it is a book of prophecy and full symbols.
It does not tell us that God physically sits on heaven and rests his feet on earth.
Then where exactly are these four creatures who sing to God day and night? Are they singing into an abyss?I believe the Revelation descriptions of God's throne and the people who surround it are accurate depictions, and not symbols.
Hebrews 8:5
They [earthly priests] serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”I believe this…….. and you apparently don't.
Mike,
We are assembled here today before God. Where is God?
A variation of that is:
Joshua 24:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)24 And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
Another variation is:
Daniel 6:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2014,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2014,09:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,07:51) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,11:01)
It makes more sense in context of which it is used in Hebrews as then both messengers and ministers are angels and not just the messengers as angels and the ministers are left as non-angels extras that were mentioned anyways.
Not necessarily, Kerwin.Remember that both the Hebrew and Greek words we translate as “angel” literally mean “messenger”. And remember that Paul said angels are MINISTERING spirits. So there you have one group of people who are both “messengers” AND “ministers”.
What's more, we have a scriptural example of one of God's angels LITERALLY turning into flame right before Manoah's eyes.
And we have Jesus telling us that the angels are “like the wind”.
Mike,I understand the rule you speak of but I do not see it applying as ministers is not used for a synonymy for angels in Scripture I know of.
You can't find a scripture where “minister” is a synonym for “angel”, so therefore my point is null? Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?There. A scripture that tells you angels are ministers – sent to serve – which is what “minsters” do, right?
Mike,That is not what I meant.
Angels are called messengers and other titles but never minister. It was not an important point as angels are servants and therefore ministers.
My point was that both sides would be angels according to Paul's words in Hebrews not just the side that said messengers. I think you and I just confuse the issue by many words.
The Important Part
God makes his angel messengers winds and his angel servants flames of fire is where I stand.
You seem to either say
God makes his angels both spirits and flames of fire
or
God makes his angels spirits, which is flames of fire.
Mike,
Quote Jehovah also spoke “face to face” with the entire congregation from Horeb. That means He spoke “directly” – as opposed to “through an angel, vision, dream, etc”. (Numbers 12:5-8) But although Jehovah spoke “face to face” with them, Moses said,
Deuteronomy 4
12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.
So you realize seeing God face is not always seeing his facial features. Yet it sometimes does speak of seeing his facial features.
You do not see the physical form of an invisible God nor do you build idols of one that has no form to copy in stone, metal, or wood.
Mike,
Lets look at the passage in which God tells Moses that the later cannot see Jehovah's face because if he does then he will die.
The first thing I see is that Moses does not ask to see the features on God's face. Instead he asks:
Exodus 33:13
English Standard Version (ESV)13 Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people.”
The next relevant thing I see Moses ask is:
Exodus 33:18
English Standard Version (ESV)18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
God answers him with these words.
Exodus 33:19-23
English Standard Version (ESV)19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
In none of these is the features of God's face or backside mentioned. Instead it is his goodness and his glory that are being spoken of. The face of God's glory and goodness was too much for sinful man to bear but the back of it was bearable by Moses.
Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:40) Mike, We are assembled here today before God. Where is God?
On His throne in heaven, Kerwin.(Just do a search of the exact phrase “in heaven”. You'll see plenty of scriptures that tell us exactly where God is. Or, you could just go by the prayer Jesus taught us.)
Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:59) The Important Part God makes his angel messengers winds and his angel servants flames of fire is where I stand.
You seem to either say
God makes his angels both spirits and flames of fire
or
God makes his angels spirits, which is flames of fire.
Aren't God's “messenger angels” also “servants” of God?My understanding is the middle one.
Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:18) So you realize seeing God face is not always seeing his facial features.
No. I believe the phrase “SEE the face of God” refers to SEEING the face of God. On the other hand, the phrase “talk to God face to face” does NOT necessarily refer to a person actually being face to face with God, and seeing God's face.Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:18) You do not see the physical form of an invisible God nor do you build idols of one that has no form to copy in stone, metal, or wood.
Correct. Jehovah is invisible to human beings, and therefore we cannot see His form in order to build an accurate idol of Him.Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:35) In none of these is the features of God's face or backside mentioned. Instead it is his goodness and his glory that are being spoken of. The face of God's glory and goodness was too much for sinful man to bear but the back of it was bearable by Moses.
The Hebrew words say “face” and “backside”, Kerwin.It is thought by some commentators that Moses saw a kind of “afterglow” when God passed by. Or the “after effects of God's presence”.
But the Hebrew word is “back”. God also said He would shield Moses with His “hand”.
So we have “hand”, “face”, and “back”. Other scriptures define God's body more in depth.
Having had a vision of Heaven myself, I can certainly attest that the glory of God is in that place. I have also by reason of my experience read many other testimonies similar to mine. I was not privy to see the throne, but others have claimed they have been shown it. I remember reading one guy's vision in which he said he saw Jesus on the throne and the glory emanated out to all creation but was brightest around the throne. I am sure we all agree with that. What he said next was interesting to me. He said the light was coming from eternity so behind the throne was the source of the light which he just assumed as anyone would that it was God.
Testing that with scripture we do see some agreement. One is that not even the heavens and the earth can contain him. Another that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, thus he inhabits Heaven and anywhere else in creation. Also, that we are told that the glory (glory can be seen) is in the face of Jesus Christ. If that is the case, then that agrees with God being invisible or without form. Whereas we know Christ has form. He is the image of the invisible God in bodily form.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.hi t8,
Does God inhabit all His creation?
Not now but He will when the cleanup is finished.
Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation which is the relevant one.Quote (t8 @ May 01 2014,18:48) If that is the case, then that agrees with God being invisible or without form.
I have read in scripture that God is invisible. I assume that means “invisible to HUMAN BEINGS”, since certain angels always see the face of God.I have never read in any scripture that God doesn't have a form, so I don't know which scripture you're referring to, t8.
As for “the heavens themselves cannot contain him” – this is most likely saying that nothing is powerful or big enough to constrain God Almighty.
I don't think it refers to God being everywhere, since there are clear scriptures, like Job 1 and 2, where angels come TO God to present themselves before Him. If God isn't in one particular place, then those angels would ALWAYS be wherever God was, and would have no need to come TO Him.
There is more, but this should suffice.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2014,19:25) Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation which is the relevant one.
Which scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation, Nick?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:35) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:59) The Important Part God makes his angel messengers winds and his angel servants flames of fire is where I stand.
You seem to either say
God makes his angels both spirits and flames of fire
or
God makes his angels spirits, which is flames of fire.
Aren't God's “messenger angels” also “servants” of God?My understanding is the middle one.
Mike,Do you believe angels are composed both of spirit and fire?
Mike,
Quote Correct. Jehovah is invisible to human beings, and therefore we cannot see His form in order to build an accurate idol of Him. Angels have statues built of them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:35) In none of these is the features of God's face or backside mentioned. Instead it is his goodness and his glory that are being spoken of. The face of God's glory and goodness was too much for sinful man to bear but the back of it was bearable by Moses.
The Hebrew words say “face” and “backside”, Kerwin.It is thought by some commentators that Moses saw a kind of “afterglow” when God passed by. Or the “after effects of God's presence”.
But the Hebrew word is “back”. God also said He would shield Moses with His “hand”.
So we have “hand”, “face”, and “back”. Other scriptures define God's body more in depth.
Mike,Have you considered it could mean “presence, sight ” which is considered an archaic meaning in our language today.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:40) Mike, We are assembled here today before God. Where is God?
On His throne in heaven, Kerwin.(Just do a search of the exact phrase “in heaven”. You'll see plenty of scriptures that tell us exactly where God is. Or, you could just go by the prayer Jesus taught us.)
Mike,So according to you God does not have to be present for a group or individual to be before him.
Quote (kerwin @ May 02 2014,10:53) Mike, Do you believe angels are composed both of spirit and fire?
Ezekiel 8:2
I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man (* or: saw a fiery figure). From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.(* The MT has “fire”, while the LXX has “man”. The nouns are very similar in Hebrew.)
Angels are beings of light. They are comprised of spirit – bodies included. I believe their bodies often take on an appearance of glowing metal or fire.
This next one describes God Himself:
Ezekiel 1
26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him.
28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
You agree that God is spirit, right? Yet He appeared to Ezekiel as “fire” and “glowing metal”.
So I don't believe angels are comprised of what we on earth know to be “fire”. But I believe their heavenly spirit form can appear to be fire or glowing metal.
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