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Quote (Wakeup @ April 25 2014,06:24) Kerwin, …..flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.
You said: but we will be of some special flesh.
This special flesh is an invention. Like putty filler; excellent for fixing cracks.
Astute observation, Wakeup.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,01:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2014,21:04) Hi MB,
“God and His spirit sons dwell in heaven.”
Yes the angelic sons of God at least visit heaven
Jb 1-3
Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
Mike,I thought you claimed no one but the Christ angel,you claim exists, has seen God. Now you claim other angels do. Are you confused?
Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2014,03:16) Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,00:29) T, Quote Romans 8:21
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I was using the AV of the KJV because I was writing to wakeup. Here is another way to say the same thing.
Romans 8:21
English Standard Version (ESV)21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
The creation itself, flesh included, will be set free from its bondage of corruption and obtain the same freedom as the children of God.
Kunderstand that God could have stopped the sin of Adam to progress but he did not do so and so let all creation be in bondage to sin and corruption until the grace came for to change it .
T,I agree with that statement.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,01:11) Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2014,21:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,08:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2014,11:47) God does not father children as a man. His children are those that worship him in spirit and not those of his body, for he has no body.
Says who?
Mike,Bodies are created things as they occupy space.
Kerwin,LIVING BEINGS also occupy space. Does that mean ALL living beings, including Jehovah, were created?
Your reasoning is flawed.
Mike,God does not occupy space. Space is a creation while God is not.
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:26) Mike, I thought you claimed no one but the Christ angel,you claim exists, has seen God. Now you claim other angels do. Are you confused?
No,I believe you are confused. I know that God has a form/body, and that God's spirit sons can see Him – and do so on a regular basis. Jesus, as God's firstborn spirit Son, is also able to see God whenever he wants to.
Jesus has the added distinction of being the only HUMAN BEING who could say (AS a human being), “I have seen God.” This is because the human being Jesus had seen God BEFORE he became a human being.
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:32) Mike, God does not occupy space. Space is a creation while God is not.
You don't actually KNOW either of those two things, Kerwin. I stand by what I said.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,01:44) Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:26) Mike, I thought you claimed no one but the Christ angel,you claim exists, has seen God. Now you claim other angels do. Are you confused?
No,I believe you are confused. I know that God has a form/body, and that God's spirit sons can see Him – and do so on a regular basis. Jesus, as God's firstborn spirit Son, is also able to see God whenever he wants to.
Jesus has the added distinction of being the only HUMAN BEING who could say (AS a human being), “I have seen God.” This is because the human being Jesus had seen God BEFORE he became a human being.
Mike,John 1:18 state “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” according to the NIV. The Koine means “none”. There is nothing specifying human.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,01:48) Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:32) Mike, God does not occupy space. Space is a creation while God is not.
You don't actually KNOW either of those two things, Kerwin. I stand by what I said.
Mike,So you believe the universe existed before God created the heavens an the earth?
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,17:28)
Mike,So you believe the universe existed before God created the heavens an the earth?
Nope…….. nor did I ever say such a thing.But I do know that angels come TO and leave FROM God all throughout the scriptures. If He occupies no space, exactly WHERE are they coming to and leaving from?
I also know God has a throne around which sits four creatures and 24 elders. Are these creatures singing to a black hole?
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,17:27) Mike, John 1:18 state “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” according to the NIV. The Koine means “none”. There is nothing specifying human.
Human is implied, Kerwin.Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.Mike,
Quote Nope…….. nor did I ever say such a thing. The universe is the media upon what space is painted. As the universe expands so does space. Scientist believe that in the beginning the universe was like a black hole and had no space. The call it the cosmic egg. According to them in general the universe is expanding to this day.
Now for Scripture, Revelation specifically, it is a book of prophecy and full symbols. There are easier to understand passages in Scripture. There are also one that actually mention God sitting on the throne. Revelations 7:10 would be the closest to what you speak of as the living creatures and elders are mentioned in the next verse.
The throne is a symbol of power and God holds that power. It is used as such in the statement “heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool”. It tells us heaven is God's seat of power and earth is under his feet. It does not tell us that God physically sits on heaven and rests his feet on earth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,09:22) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,17:27) Mike, John 1:18 state “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” according to the NIV. The Koine means “none”. There is nothing specifying human.
Human is implied, Kerwin.Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Mike,I do not see where human is implied so I assume that you conclude the only way you see that both verses are true is if John is speaking of only humans even though he neither specified, implied, or hinted at that being the case. The question is whether it is the only way both verses can be true?
Another possibility is these messengers see God in the same way Mosses saw God face to face and ” the only begotten Son” sees him in another way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,01:16) Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2014,21:45) Quote (Wakeup @ April 25 2014,09:13) kerwin. You must believe this scripture.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels.spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
wakeup.
Wakeup.God has made his messengers as fast as the wind and his ministers as zealous as flames of fire. The KJV confused the translations…………
The KJV confused the translation by not ADDING your words, “as fast as” and “as zealous as”?
Mike,This is the one that seems correct to me.
Psalms 104:4
English Standard Version4he makes his messengers winds,
his ministers a flaming fire.I interpreted it as I wrote.
It makes more sense in context of which it is used in Hebrews as then both messengers and ministers are angels and not just the messengers as angels and the ministers are left as non-angels extras that were mentioned anyways.
To all,
I think I am caught up in this thread. If I am not feel free to let me know what I have not done. Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,10:49) Mike, Revelation specifically, it is a book of prophecy and full symbols.
It does not tell us that God physically sits on heaven and rests his feet on earth.
Then where exactly are these four creatures who sing to God day and night? Are they singing into an abyss?I believe the Revelation descriptions of God's throne and the people who surround it are accurate depictions, and not symbols.
Hebrews 8:5
They [earthly priests] serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”I believe this…….. and you apparently don't.
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,10:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,09:22) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,17:27) Mike, John 1:18 state “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” according to the NIV. The Koine means “none”. There is nothing specifying human.
Human is implied, Kerwin.Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Mike,I do not see where human is implied………
Exodus 33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.When Jehovah said it, the Hebrew word He used was “adam”.
Does that help?
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,11:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,01:16)
The KJV confused the translation by not ADDING your words, “as fast as” and “as zealous as”?
Mike,This is the one that seems correct to me.
Psalms 104:4
English Standard Version4he makes his messengers winds,
his ministers a flaming fire.It makes more sense in context of which it is used in Hebrews as then both messengers and ministers are angels and not just the messengers as angels and the ministers are left as non-angels extras that were mentioned anyways.
Not necessarily, Kerwin.Psalms 123:4 NIV ©
We have endured much ridicule from the proud, much contempt from the arrogant.In the above psalm, the “proud” and the “arrogant” are the same group of people. There are many scriptural examples of this kind of writing.
Remember that both the Hebrew and Greek words we translate as “angel” literally mean “messenger”. And remember that Paul said angels are MINISTERING spirits. So there you have one group of people who are both “messengers” AND “ministers”.
What's more, we have a scriptural example of one of God's angels LITERALLY turning into flame right before Manoah's eyes.
And we have Jesus telling us that the angels are “like the wind”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,07:51) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,11:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,01:16)
The KJV confused the translation by not ADDING your words, “as fast as” and “as zealous as”?
Mike,This is the one that seems correct to me.
Psalms 104:4
English Standard Version4he makes his messengers winds,
his ministers a flaming fire.It makes more sense in context of which it is used in Hebrews as then both messengers and ministers are angels and not just the messengers as angels and the ministers are left as non-angels extras that were mentioned anyways.
Not necessarily, Kerwin.Psalms 123:4 NIV ©
We have endured much ridicule from the proud, much contempt from the arrogant.In the above psalm, the “proud” and the “arrogant” are the same group of people. There are many scriptural examples of this kind of writing.
Remember that both the Hebrew and Greek words we translate as “angel” literally mean “messenger”. And remember that Paul said angels are MINISTERING spirits. So there you have one group of people who are both “messengers” AND “ministers”.
What's more, we have a scriptural example of one of God's angels LITERALLY turning into flame right before Manoah's eyes.
And we have Jesus telling us that the angels are “like the wind”.
Mike,I understand the rule you speak of but I do not see it applying as ministers is not used for a synonymy for angels in Scripture I know of. Sometime the only way you can tell a passage is speaking of angels because used titles such as messengers to name them. It could also use ministers.
Even if both sides could be translated he makes his angels winds and his angels flames of fire then it would could be interpreted by some that they are composed of a combination of winds and fire not just winds(spirit). Picking our one noun clause and discarding the second because it is extraneous to doctrines does not work.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,10:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,09:22) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,17:27) Mike, John 1:18 state “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” according to the NIV. The Koine means “none”. There is nothing specifying human.
Human is implied, Kerwin.Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Mike,I do not see where human is implied………
Exodus 33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.When Jehovah said it, the Hebrew word He used was “adam”.
Does that help?
Mike,It also says.
Exodus 33:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Jehovah also spoke “face to face” with the entire congregation from Horeb. That means He spoke “directly” – as opposed to “through an angel, vision, dream, etc”. (Numbers 12:5-8)
But although Jehovah spoke “face to face” with them, Moses said,
Deuteronomy 4
12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.
Now, Jehovah CLEARLY told Moses that even he could not see His face, right? And Jehovah said this was because NO MAN could see His face and live, right?
So OBVIOUSLY, Jehovah talking to Moses “face to face” has a different meaning than, “Moses saw the face of God”, right?
This isn't the case with God's heavenly creatures – as is attested in many, many scriptures.
The form of God is clearly described in many scriptures. There is no scripture that says He doesn't have a form – or that He doesn't occupy space. These teachings come from men, and not from any scripture.
But I've got better things to do with my time than argue against your willful ignorance, Kerwin. You have already made up your mind that God doesn't occupy space, doesn't have a form, and can't be seen by angels.
It is your choice to believe what you want to believe.
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