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Geneb.
Of course God’s spirit is in him. The flesh is the temple of that spirit.
That same spirirt was Him before he was made flesh.
That spirit was the Word of God. Then given a flesh body.
wakeup.
J42
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Pierre
I know those scriptures.
What it boils down to is that you are implying the Word of God is a creature?)
YES ,IN DEED HE IS , HE IS THE SON OF GOD AND HIS FIRST CREATION
T8,
Where are the differences between what you believe and what Mike believes. If I understand correctly Mike believes Jesus was made of the stuff of God’s body. So what do you believe?
Do you have an answer to this question yet?
journey42 wrote:God has set a trap. To state that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, one would naturally think, Jesus was the first created even before Adam and Eve?
Yes, that is indeed the most logical understanding of the phrase. And not just created before Adam and Eve, but also before the angels and the universe and the earth.
journey42 wrote:This is the trap. This is where your mind stops and is made up.
Why would it be a “trap” set by God? Scripture says Jehovah is not a God of confusion, journey.
journey42 wrote:But read on, and it’s clear what the passage is speaking of.
Yes, we need to read verses 15 and 16 as one long sentence – like it was originally written. Reading it the way it was meant to be read, we learn that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation BECAUSE through him, all those other things were created. Things that are visible. Things that are invisible. Things that are in heaven. Things that are in earth. All things were created through the first one to have been created.
journey, is God Almighty “the firstborn of all creation”? If not, why not?
k
THE WORDS OF PAUL ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
this scripture does not make any difference between the invisible body and spirit of God almighty I so understand that “THE WORD”(Christ) is in all respect the “image ” of his father ;then adding to this ;HE HIS THE FIRST BORN OF CREATION ;
THIS IS COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE (UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW GOD DID THIS )BUT HE SAYS HE DID THIS ,GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME ,FOR THE REST OF SCRIPTURES ARE NOW FOLDING OUT AS A PUZZLE, AND SO THE TRUTH BECOMES KNOWN
Pierre
So you admit that before Christ was born flesh, when he was The Word of God, was just a creature? So you go out and preach to the world that the one that holds the keys to death and hell is a creature, so fear him. Put your soul, and your trust and every sin you have into the hands of a creature. No man can come to the Father but through a creature?
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like a corruptile man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Oh, but you don’t worship Christ, so this excludes you.
Can you see here that you are making Christ, your creator into the very same thing Romans is speaking of? A creature.
Christ is the image of God. If he reflects God, then he is reflecting the CREATOR. So how can he reflect a creature?
And the glory of God is Christ, a mirror image of God and everything he is. THE CREATOR. You should know this by now.
Mike,
The trap is Christ, the Word of God. He is the cornerstone and also the stumbling block. You are correct, God is not a God of confusion, but he prepares a stumbling block. He does not give truth out willy nilly. The holy spirit is not handed to everybody on a plate. If it was there would be just one truth, one doctrine, one religion, and all would agree.
The foundation has to be right first, and many have publicly attacked the Word of God saying it was not preserved therefore cannot be trusted. The stumbling block is not Christ himself, for he forgives sins and paves the way, but look deeper and Christ is “The Word of God” It’s the Word that is the stumbling block. A wrong foundation will produce no fruits.
Hi Kerwin.
I answered your question on the previous page. Did you see it, and if so, I guess you are saying that it was not adequately answered.
There should also be a link to my reply in your messages as I pointed it @kerwin.🙂
T8,
Sorry, I missed your answer.
Where I differ with Mike and Terr is in a small way that being the difference between ‘begotten’ and ‘created’. Besides that, we are on the same page IMO.
Begotten literally means sired. I believe born is speaking of birth. Sometimes either one can be used in allegory. I do not believe you are claiming that Jesus was sired by God and so I am searching for what you do mean.
So you admit that before Christ was born flesh, when he was The Word of God, was just a creature? So you go out and preach to the world that the one that holds the keys to death and hell is a creature, so fear him. Put your soul, and your trust and every sin you have into the hands of a creature. No man can come to the Father but through a creature? Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like a corruptile man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Oh, but you don’t worship Christ, so this excludes you. Can you see here that you are making Christ, your creator into the very same thing Romans is speaking of? A creature. Christ is the image of God. If he reflects God, then he is reflecting the CREATOR. So how can he reflect a creature? And the glory of God is Christ, a mirror image of God and everything he is. THE CREATOR. You should know this by now.J42
first who says he was creature ; HIS GOD A CREATURE ? IF SO THEN THE SON ALSO ,BUT TO ME THEY ARE BOTH “BEINGS” BUT THE SON IS CREATED BY THE FATHER ;Ro 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
Ro 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Ro 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Ro 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.could you tell me why YOU ARE QUOTING THOSE SCRIPTURES VERSE 23 THAT IS .?
Ro 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
YES THAT IS WHAT LOST MEN DO ,WORSHIP THE CREATION RATHER THAN THE CREATOR ,
YOU SAY ;Can you see here that you are making Christ, your creator into the very same thing Romans is speaking of?
MY LORD JESUS CHRIST IS NOT MY CREATOR ,HE NEVER WAS THE CREATOR ,ONLY THE FATHER CREATED ALL THINGS “THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM,
CHRIST JESUS AS THE SAME GOD THAN ME AND US ALL ,YOU SEEM CONFUSED ,
YOU SAY ;Christ is the image of God. If he reflects God, then he is reflecting the CREATOR. So how can he reflect a creature?
And the glory of God is Christ, a mirror image of God and everything he is. THE CREATOR. You should know this by now.{{
ARE YOU ARGUING WITH WHAT GOD CREATES ? AND WHAT HE DOES WITH WHAT HE DOES ? I HOPE NOT ,
THE SCRIPTURES CALL JESUS THE SON OF GOD ,AND PAUL SAYS HE HIS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER ;IN THIS I STOP FOR I DO NOT KNOW HOW GOD LOOKS OR HOW I WOULD REPRESENT HIM ,SO I DO NONE OF THOSE THINGS ,JESUS SAYS TO WORSHIP HIS FATHER NOT HIM ,IS THAT WHAT YOU DO ,FOR THAT IS WHAT I DO ,NOW IF PAUL CALLED HIM (JESUS) THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER ;THEN WOULD THAT MEAN THAT HE SAW THE FATHER ? I DO NOT THINK SO ,FOR HE WOULD HAVE SAY SO IF THAT WAS THE CASE ,BUT WHAT PAUL UNDERSTOOD ABOVE ALL IS THE LOVE OF GOD AND FOR GOOD REASONS (WE KNOW WHO HE WAS AND DID RIGHT) IF ONLY YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THE LOVE OF GOD YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THE LOVE OF THE SON TOWARD US ALL SINNERS,
CHRIST IS THE MIRROR IMAGE OF GOD’S LOVE ,BUT TO SEE IT YOU HAVE TO ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE LOVE OF GOD THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES ,IT IS WRITTEN ALL OVER ,
Non Christ worshippers.
Such as muslems do.
1.When Christ appears in the clouds they will refuse to worship Him.
2.They will just bow,and say praise God. (praise allah).
3.They will be rebuked by God, saying: you are a thief going through the back door.
4.Everyone must go through the shepherds door.
5. I am the creator of which ye call a creature.
6.I am from everlasting, which ye say had a beginning.
7.I hold the key of heaven and hell, and ye refuse to worship Me.
8.I have the seven stars and the seven candlesticks in my hand;I am the head of the church.
I am the way,and ye refused to worship Me.
9.I am the one ye seek in the scriptures,but ye refuse to worship Me.
10. Ye worship the Father but not through His Word; ye have chosen your own way.
Like the heathens do.
11. Ye have a proud heart,and I have blinded your eyes. ye have stumbled over the stumbling block I put before you.
No man knows the Son nor the Father; but he whom the son will reveal him.
wakeup.
j42
it seem to me you believe that “THE WORD” his God’s own words right ?
but how do you know that ? their is not one scripture that support that view;and if you find one “you have to interpret it with your very own words ,to make it into what you say and believe ,and so braking the scriptures ,
it is important that we believe the scriptures if not you are going on your own cloud,and no longer be on the truth of God ,but you would be on j42 truth only,
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.those verses are in harmony with what Paul says in ;
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.now those words from John the baptist;
Jn 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
Jn 1:8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”
Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Jn 3:31 “The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.
Jn 3:32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
Jn 3:33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.
Jn 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
Jn 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”it is true to say that John speaks about a person and that person his Jesus Christ ,and also called by him “THE WORD” right ? YES (no interpretation from me into it right ?yes)
now see what Jesus says ;
Jn 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jn 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Jn 17:25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.Jn 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
JN 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
JN 6:51 “ I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
JN 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
IF YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THOSE SCRIPTURES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN THEN YOU HAVE THE TRUTH OF GOD ; BUT IF YOU HAVE TO INTERPRET THEM THEN THEY WILL NO LONGER BE GOD’S TRUTH BUT YOURS J42 TRUTH ,
T,
Romans 8:29New English Translation (NET Bible)
29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
I hear that those that God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the Spiritual image of Jesus Christ for in doing so the would become like God in true righteousness and holiness.
In a like manner Jesus was predestined to be conformed to the Spiritual image of God.
K
is the image of the image the same as the original image ? understand that it does not talks about copy’s ,and how could any one be like Christ who is the one through whom all things were created through ,and that all things hold together in ,and would this mean that now God as more first sons ,and what make those that come to join Christ as brothers of him ,become anything more than the promise Jesus give them when he was still on earth ? the honor given to someone does not make him the same as the one that gives the honor ,is it ?
how could someone equal the honor /glory of the son /
now those that God predestine /God does not predestine men as group ,unless we talk about the righteous ones /as persons yes in some exception ,but what makes a righteous one ? understand that the 144k as a class on its own should have been taken all of Israel ,and yet they could not fill the number and so it was given to the gentiles to fill in the vacant seats left by Israel ,
we have our free will to fulfil the demand of God or rejected so it is more as a group of people that was predestine by God ,the group of righteous men ,
T,
is the image of the image the same as the original image ?
The Spiritual image is as those that have the image of God walk by the same Spirit.
I am not sure of the physical image as I am not this exact image of my father and yet Seth is said to have been formed in the image of his father Adam.
Colossians teaches us that God is invisible and so if Jesus’ body was the same as God’s it would also be invisible. On the other hand the Spirit is invisible by nature and therefore has nothing to do with physical appearance.
T,
understand that it does not talks about copy’s ,and how could any one be like Christ…
Those that are fully mature are like Christ only in that they do not sin even when tempted as it common with men. They have different gifts than him as he is the head of the church and king of all things in heaven and on earth and they are only members of his body that he serves.
how could any one be like Christ who is the one through whom all things were created through ,and that all things hold together in
Jesus being the image of God is a separate point to all of that. It is only about him being righteous and holy as God is righteous and holy.
he honor given to someone does not make him the same as the one that gives the honor ,is it ?
It does if the honor is to be like them in some way or ways.
would this mean that now God as more first sons
You are speaking of firstborn here and firstborn can mean at least two other things besides the literal first born. I am not ready to address that issue right now as I would like to to address and come to understand in truth the claim that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God” first.
Jesus, like Isaac, is the son of the promise which makes him the only begotten son. He is God’s son, as of the Spirit, and Abraham’s son, as of the flesh. Both of those “s” can be capitalized to emphasize his role, which is that he is the only son of the promise.
how could someone equal the honor /glory of the son
God gives to each the honor/glory he chooses. It is a gift.
The 144K we we discussing elsewhere but I do not desire to go into it in this thread at this time.
Trying to mislead brothers using scriptures is a sin.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John was not that light; but Jesus is that light that shined in darkness.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
Please address your posts so the person or person knows to who you directed the post. Thank you.
K
there is no one that can claim that he will be or is like christ the son of GOD ; you can only have some relation to him by being a believer in his father like him,believe in him as well ;where does leaves you ,certain thing cannot be shared ,no matter what
you show me were anyone that is high like a king that honor someone at his table and he would be at the same equal height in honor to that king ?
many of your response do not make sense to me so i will not comment on it
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