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Wakeup………..it all boils down to spirit, Jesus said God is Spirit and he also said He was not a Spirit, that shoud clear up some of your misunderstanding about Jesus being a God.
Next in John 1; 1 we are told the Word (which is translated from the Greek word LOGOS means, simply put, (intellegence), John was not talking about another Person when he said Logos, he was talking about intellegence being with God let me paraphase it for you OK.
In the beginning was intellegence and intellegence was with God and intellegence was God. and if you read on in Chapter 4 you will see that this intellegence was the (LIGHT) of the whole world and it is what enlightens every man coming into the world. simply put it is God that gives us our human reasoning ability, which is Spirit our cognant ability. In that way we “IMAGE” God, we can reason as he does, by the Lightwhich is the intellect he has given us.
The whole concept of LOGOS or (intellegent expression) referencing another person other then God the Father himself in John 1;1 is false.IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Geneb.
Just see ir this way.
The Holy spirit is God’s spirit. He is living and He can teach.
The Word of God is spirit; He can create, and He can appear a man.
We are not to worship angels at any timel nor any creature.
wakeup.
t8
I do not try to argue on words ,but as a whole the scriptures shows that the son was not there at one point and that he is God first creation ,this is I think the main base for our faith in him ,
because all things are hold together in him ‘
we may argue from here to eternity but it will not change that fact ,if you believe it or not , this is our faith that must be in question and not if some words have different meaning or not ;the choice as to be made ;
T8,
Where are the differences between what you believe and what Mike believes. If I understand correctly Mike believes Jesus was made of the stuff of God’s body. So what do you believe?
T8
(<span style=”font-weight: bold;”>Does this not prove to you that ‘begotten’ and ‘created’ do not entirely mean the same thing?)</span>
NOT REALLY , it just qualifies for what the questions are worth ,your question 1)<span style=”font-weight: bold;”>1) Is Jesus the only begotten? this is not a question to be asked in scripture truth ,for Christ his the only begotten of God (meaning he is the only one that as been created from God own being , for all others are created through him ,it is like saying John is the only blacksmith trained by Pierre ,</span>
now you ask “if Pierre is the only trainer ? ” it does not make sense, that question will only answer to that silly question ,
your question 2)<span style=”font-weight: bold;”>2) Is Jesus the only created? …… is made in the same way </span>
for this it does not accomplish nothing except to obtain the wrong understanding ,
K
i never said that the angels were created directly by God ,but Christ is the first of God’s creation ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisibleWhere are the differences between what you believe and what Mike believes. If I understand correctly Mike believes Jesus was made of the stuff of God’s body. So what do you believe?
I believe as Mike and Terr that Jesus existed before the Cosmos in the form of God and God made everything through him and for him. Even science backs this up in the sense that time is a dimension, thus if he sits in the highest place alongside God, then he sits at the highest dimension which is before time itself and every other created dimension. If he started life 2000 or so years ago, then he is not seated in the highest IMO, rather the highest in the third dimension only. Way more important than my scientific understanding of dimensions and time is that scripture speaks of his pre-eminence in all things and that he was the agent by which God made all things through. Thus that which is by definition created came through him demonstrating that he was before and is above all things that were created.
Where I differ with Mike and Terr is in a small way that being the difference between ‘begotten’ and ‘created’. Besides that, we are on the same page IMO.
I personally believe that we hold others to high accountability on that which they teach by exposing assumptions which lead to errors. I am simply applying the same level of accountability with their view on the interchangeability of ‘begotten’ and ‘created’. I question this because it is written that we are created and Jesus is begotten. Further, Jesus is the only begotten and it is easy to see that he is NOT the only created. Thus there is a difference in these words that we need to understand, but they seem to wash over that difference for some reason.
kerwin wrote:John 1:14 is the one I mentioned.
So then you understand 1:14 as, The Word qualities of a person made flesh……… ?
(All I did was sub the word “was” with your definition “qualities of a person”.)
t8 wrote:Simply put, Adam and Eve negate the second part and when we consider God and the Angels we also know they are living and not the offspring of Eve right? So the latter part leads to a problem.
I know Lightenup started a thread that discussed whether Jesus was “begotten” or “created”…….. but I don’t remember us ever having an official debate on the subject.
Okay, listen very carefully, t8. Adam called his woman “Eve” because she was (ie: would become) “the mother of all living”. Is that correct so far? Am I speaking according to scripture?
Yet we all know that God is living, and Eve isn’t His mother. We know angels are living, and Eve isn’t their mother. We know that bears and rats and scorpions and elephants are living, and Eve isn’t the mother of any of them. So, what do you suppose Adam meant when he named her “the mother of all living”?
Do you suppose he was referring only to human beings? YES or NO?
(That is the only question I want answered in your next post to me. I don’t want to see you “explaining” things again, because each time you do, you only make your own misunderstanding more evident. So please, just answer that one simple YES or NO question.)
t8 wrote:1) Is Jesus the only begotten?
2) Is Jesus the only created?
1. NO.
2. NO.Surely you’ll ask about my answer to #1, so I will explain what you apparently missed in my other posts. The Greek word “monogenes” is from the Greek word “monos”, meaning “alone, one, only”……. and the Greek word “ginomai”, meaning “generated, came into existence, created, made”. Strong says “ginomai” is: a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being)…..
The word “ginomai” is NEVER translated as “begotten” anywhere. It is translated as “made”, “brought forth into existence”, “created”, etc. There is another Greek word that IS translated as “begotten”, and that word is “gennao”. But “monogenes” doesn’t come from “monos” and “gennao”.
It seems that “only begotten” is a flawed translation of “monogenes”, t8. The word literally means “only generated“, or “only came into existence“, or “only created“.
The thinking is that it has a “slang” meaning of “one of a kind”, or “unique”. So Jesus is called the “one of a kind Son of God”, or the “unique Son of God”.
(This is all new to me, too. I’ve been learning this stuff that I never knew before in a different forum for the last couple of weeks. But perhaps you could do your own research into “monogenes/only begotten”, to see what you find out on your own. If you find that the info I just posted to you is legit, then that would be the end of this discussion, right? If you don’t accept it is legit, then I’m working on other ways to show you the truth of the matter, such as……… )
Remember that John himself said believers were “begotten of God” in 1 John 5:1 and 5:18. (Btw, John used the word “gennao”, not “ginomai”….. as that is the Greek word that actually means “begotten”.) And it is almost unanimously accepted that John wrote his three smaller letters BEFORE he wrote his gospel. So if John was already calling believers “begotten of God” BEFORE he wrote the gospel in which he called Jesus the “only begotten of God”, then it’s another support to the claim that “monogenes” doesn’t really mean “only begotten”.
And even if you insist it does, remember that it can’t be a LITERAL thing, since John says some of us are also already “begotten” of God. In that case, it would be more of an “emphatic” thing, like Paul calling Isaac the “only begotten” of Abraham, when we know he wasn’t LITERALLY Abraham’s ONLY son. (This “Isaac” point also supports the claims that “monogenes” means “one of a kind son”, or “unique son”, right?)
I have more to say, but I’ll wait for your response to this post, and your YES or NO answer to the other one.
Pastors always use that same strategy, bringing out greek and hebrew and what else to confound.
The jw’s do that very often. Trying to make one feel stupid.
I dont fall for that nonsense. The scriptures are for the humble in heart.
Greeks and jews even are still confused.
wakeup.
T,
i never said that the angels were created directly by God ,but Christ is the first of God’s creation ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisibleThat does not say that Jesus was created(begotten) from God’s own being though you seem to interpret it that way.
Colossians 1:15 New English Translation (NET Bible)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
Image can be either be speaking of a person’s body or their spirit. From the fact you are quoting this to answer my question I conclude you are assuming it is speaking of the body despite the fact you know it could be either.
Some do the same with the phrase “firstborn of creation” that can mean the first child that is born, the child that will gain the main inheritance no matter what his birth order, or the person in authority over the rest.
What Scripture brings you to the conclusion the phrase “image of God” is talking about the body when it is speaking of Jesus?
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
It’s so simple really.
God has set a trap. To state that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, one would naturally think, Jesus was the first created even before Adam and Eve?
This is the trap. This is where your mind stops and is made up.
But read on, and it’s clear what the passage is speaking of.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
The firstborn from the dead. Hello! Not the firstborn ever.
But that scripture is not enough, so to justify your reasoning, your carnal thinking, you change the meaning of “the only begotten son” to say the exactly the opposite, …that he is not the only begotten son, meaning he’s just like any other son who was created but the first created in heaven?
This is not what the scripture is saying.
Now your turning the creator into a creature before he was even made a creature. Christ became a creature when God changed his word into flesh, (not himself, but his Word) and he came out of his mothers womb. He is now made a creature like us that can die. Before this he was NEVER a creature, for all things were created through him and for him. He is the Word of God, not something that can be made, but something that exists with God.
Of all the creatures in the world, no one has been changed to spirit after death, but the only begotten Son of God. He was the FIRST, over all creation to turn from flesh to spirit.
Because we follow Christ, the same will happen to us. We shall also be called begotten sons of God, because in our rebirth, in the resurrection, we will be born of God then, and evident that we have had that same seed in us that is in Christ. Only after this shall we be begotten sons of the Father. Reborn into our new bodies because of the will of God, …born of God, nothing to do with the nature of the flesh.
God knows before hand who will be in the resurrection, therefore the others he is addressing as begotten sons, is already determined that they will follow suit. But these begotten sons did not come from heaven in the first place. They did not change from spirit to flesh, and then back to spirit. Jesus is unique, like no other.
Your carnal thinking is stumping you, and your making scripture into something so complicated when it’s not.
j42
it is you that as been deceived ;
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven””” AND”” on earth, visible “””AND””” invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things,””” AND””” in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 “”AND”” he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning “””AND “””the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 “””AND “”” through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the crosspay attention to those scriptures and what they really say;the key word is “AND” that mean all thing are added to the previous one ,
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: WHERE ? things in heaven””” AND”” on earth, IN WHAT NATURE ?; visible “””AND””” invisible OF THINGS INCLUDING ;whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.WHERE WAS HE AT THAT TIME ?;Col 1:17 He is before all things, WHAT WAS HIS IMPORTANCE? in him all things hold together.
THEN MORE WAS ADDED ; “”AND”” he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning(THE BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH FOR HE IS THE HIGH PRIEST)ALSO HE WAS FIRST IN ; “””AND “””the firstborn from among the dead, (THIS IS THE COMPLETION OF ALL THINGS TO COME TO ITS CONCLUSION) so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
WHO MADE ALL THINGS TO THAT WAY ? Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, END OF STORY
YOU HAVE IT WRONG ,THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE AND ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES,READ IT AND LET THE TRUTH ENTER YOUR HEART
T,
What Scripture brings you to the conclusion the phrase “image of God” is talking about the body when it is speaking of Jesus?
Do you have an answer to this question yet?
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
- The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
- For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
- He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
- And he is the head of the body, the church;
- he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
It seems to me that each point is unique. He is before all things, all things were created through him, he is the firstborn over all creation, and he is the firstborn from among the dead. These are not the same points. It is not repeating itself. Each point is unique.
Pierre
I know those scriptures.
What it boils down to is that you are implying the Word of God is a creature?
I’m saying he was never a creature, but the creator. The Word of God was never born in heaven. He was always there with God, for he came out of God. He was there before anything was created, which is why he is before all things, and all things consist because of him, The Word. He created all things, and therefore not a creature.
When the Word of God who was spirit, changed into flesh, then he became a creature. Flesh beings are creatures. They get born, and they die.
He is the “Firstborn of all creation” meaning he is the “Firstborn of the Dead” (The first resurrected) You just had to read further to get your answer.
It’s no mystery, it’s explained, and to me, the truth is so simple.
Agree.
Before all things:
God was there; His Word was there; His Holy Spirit was there;widom was there;love was there.
We must never worship creatures, since they believe that jesus is a creature;they dont worship Jesus.
Scripture says: Every knee shall bow before him. And they reckoned they will refuse to bow.
But there will be only Jesus in front of them,and they will refuse to bow? I can see them wet themselves.
If one bows before an idol; is that not worship?
If one bows before a king; that is not worship,because the king is not a god to them,but the idol is a god.
Bowing before a king is honour. Bowing before an idol god is worship. Bowing before the creator is worship.
For Jesus will judge. There will be red faces. Every believer will bow except them??? I dont think so.
No one can come to God without worshipping His Word.
We can not worship God, and ignore His Word. The whole bible is focussed on the Word of God made flesh.(Jesus).
Our lives depend on believing in Jesus,and and walk in the spirit of Jesus. And they say;He is just another brother?
I am Alpha and Omega; He that was dead, and yet I am alive for evermore. And they will not Bow? How strong are they not to bow?
Jesus was worshipped by wise men since his birth. And these so called wise men of this day will not worship Him?
But they have an other thing to say of course; bowing is not worship they will say. Bowing is just honouring.
They can not tell the difference between bowing before a king, and bowing before the Word of God,who created all things. He who created
all mankind, and that includes them. And they will say? Sorry Lord but I only worship God,but not His word.
Angels are commanded to worship Him; and these men (non Jesus worshippers)say no; I will not worship Him.
Stay away from me;I only worship God. I’ll wait till I see God in person;then I will worship. Have they become muslems?
I tell you the truth;even muslems will bow their knees.
The Word of God is coming with power and wrath; and every knee shall bow,and worship Him.Every knee will tremble.
wakeup
wakeup………………..Jesus said God is (a) spirit , Jesus said that God the Father was in him he did not say he was that God that was in him Jesus recieved that spirit at the Jordan river and there, on that day, he became a begotten son of God, Just as we do when we recieve the Spirit of God into us. Trying to seperate Jesus Idenity from our very own is exactly what Satan wants “Reigion” to do, as I have explained to you before. IF YOU DO NOT SEE JESUS AS A PURE HUMAN BEING, WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD “IN” HIM, YOU SIMPLY DO NOT SEE HIM. His whole life was to show us all our human potenital with God the Father and it is the exact same as his. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………..gene
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