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This is my fourth and final post in this debate. I may post a final wrap-up of the last four posts and allow t8 to do the same, if he is amenable. People can make their own minds up as whose posts have been the most persuasive, who has been most faithful to the sciptures. I thought I would save what I consider to be the strongest proof text for last. The passage I have selected is Zechariah chapter 14, it reads as follows:
Zechariah 14
1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
6In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses.
11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
20In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD ” And the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
21Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.Question: Who is the central figure in view here? Who specifically is this person designated “YHWH”? The Father? Yeshua?….
It’s my contention this person is Yeshua. This chapter in Zechariah is, of course, overtly prophetic of the second coming, the outpouring of his wrath on the wicked who have survived the tribulation (the “nations”) and have foolishly decided to wage war with Him as well as His millennial reign from Mt Zion in Jerusalem. Moreover, none of the things described in the chapter are predicted to be fulfilled by the Father in the New Testament (hereafter designated NT). Zechariah is a book that is replete with references to the Messiah; a triumphant king humbly riding a donkey (9:9), they will look to me, the one they have pierced (12:10), sold for 30 pieces of silver (11:12-13), His disciples would be “scattered” after His death (13:7). So it naturally follows that Zechariah is also messianic, the context confirms this. The detail given in the Chapter 14 passage about the person (the King) and the era in which He inhabits the Earth aligns tightly to much of the eschatological (end times) scripture pertaining to Yeshua in other parts of the Bible, especially that found in Revelation.
As a small aside, in Acts 1:11 we are told that Yeshua will return in “just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven”.
Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.Yeshua ascended from the Mount of Olives and the angel affirmed that He will return “in just the same manner”. Zech 14:4 tells us that YHWH’s feet will stand on the very same spot; the Mt of Olives.
Zechariah 14:4
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.“the old traditional opinion is not improbable, that our Lord shall come again to judge the earth, where He left the earth, near the place of His Agony and Crucifixion for us. So shall “the Feet” of God literally, “stand upon the Mount of Olives.”
Source: http://bibletools.org/….sCurious….
Okay let me try to illustrate some of the commonalities between what is written of YHWH in Zech 14:1-4 and what is written of Yeshua elsewhere in the Bible, passages that make Yeshua the only legitimate candidate for the person we read about in Zech 14. Rather than comprehensively expound this chapter (which I’m not qualified to do) I’ll just let some key verses and their parallel scriptures speak for themselves, readers can draw their own conclusions.
Zechariah 14:1-4 describe YHWH “coming” to Earth, before and after His ascension Yeshua many times declared He is coming again:
Zechariah 14
1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.CF.
Matthew 24:30
30″And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (cf. Matt 16:27, 24:37; Mark 8:38, 13:26; Luke 21:27)Revelation 3:11
11I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.Revelation 22:7
7″And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.The apostles, of course, were expecting and prophesied Yeshua’s return:
Matthew 24:3
3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ2 Timothy 1:10
10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel2 Timothy 4:1
1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:2 Timothy 4:8
8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearingTitus 2:13-14
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.Revelation 1:7
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.Zech 14:3-4 and 14:12 describe YHWH in the role of a punisher/avenger of “nations” (v2) , when Yeshua does come it has been foretold that He will also come in the role as punisher/avenger:
Zechariah 14:12
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.CF.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;Revelation 2:16
16’Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.Revelation 17:14
14″These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”Revelation 19:15
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.(also compare Rev 2:16 and 19:15 with Isa 11:4)
Zechariah 14:5 declares that when YHWH comes He will be accompanied by His saints, this is also true of Yeshua when He comes again:
Zechariah 14:5
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and [/u]the LORD [YHWH][/u] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.CF.
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.Revelation 19:13-14
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.Zechariah 14:9, 16-17 testifies that YHWH will rule the nations from Jerusalem (also see Isa 24:23, Micah 4:7), other scripture reveals that Yeshua will rule as King on Earth
Zechariah 14:9, 16-17
9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one….16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.Isaiah 24:23
23Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.Micah 4:7
7″I will make the lame a remnant; And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion; From now on and foreverCF.
Daniel 7:13-14
13″I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14″And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not b
e destroyed.Daniel 7:27
27’Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:2 Timothy 2:10-12
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;Revelation 12:5
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.Revelation 20:4
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Moreover, He will do this from the throne of David (a throne located in Jerusalem), which His Father will establish:
2 Samuel 7:12-13
12″When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.13″He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.Isaiah 9:6-7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessIsaiah 16:5
5 A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousnessLuke 1:32
32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”So it’s quite apparent that Zechariah 14:1-4 prophetically describes Yeshua’s coming to Earth, the outpouring of His retribution upon the wicked “nations” and His Kingly reign from Mt Zion in Jerusalem, where He will be seated on David’s throne. Jerusalem, Mt Zion, David’s throne – these are manifestly physical locations, on Earth! The NT does not tesify of the Father ever residing on Earth. In actual fact Yeshua will not hand over the Kingdom to His Father until all rule, authority and power has been abolished, He must reign until all enemies have been put under His feet (1 Cor 15:24-25). This will not occur until after Satan has been loosed a little while to deceive the nations one last time (Rev 20:7), and this will not happen until after the 1000 year reign of Christ has consummated. The Father, evidently, will still be in Heaven during this time. But here’s the important point I’ve been driving at – Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH on twelve separate occasions in Zechariah 14; verses 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20 and 21. Would the Bible ascribe the exclusively divine name to someone who is not YHWH?? I think not! That would be grossly misleading, to say the least. On this point it may be argued by t8 that Yeshua is assigned this name on account of His role as YHWH’s agent, i.e. YHWH, Yeshua’s Father, is ruling through Him therefore it is rightful that he bears His Father’s name. However this can be debunked by appealing to the complete absence of a parallel example. Nowhere else in scripture can we find an instance where an agent of YHWH is bestowed the name of YHWH (or any name for that matter) because he/she is acting on His behalf. Moses and Abraham often acted as YHWH’s agent, yet they are certainly never described as YHWH. This is also true of the NT believers, Paul and Peter were used by God but they are nowhere called God in the NT. Taken to a further extreme, any spirit-filled believer has at some time been ‘used’ by God and yet it’s more than inappropriate for us to be called YHWH, everyone knows this. What’s more, any notion that the law of agency applies to Yeshua in Zech 14 can be utterly dispelled upon reading verse 16 & 17:
Zechariah 14:16-17
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worshipthe King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.The “King, the Lord of Hosts” will be worshipped by the nations, and refusal to do this will result in dire consequences for them. Verses 20-21 make it plain that this worship is is highest form, that reserved only for YHWH. It goes without saying that YHWH cannot be worshipped by proxy, that is overt blasphemy, idolatry. No one may rightly recieve worship on God’s behalf, it’s ludicrous to even entertain this idea.
In summary, in Zechariah chapter 14 we see that Yeshua is in fact YHWH. He is the only legitimate candidate for the central figure in the Chapter based on the detail given in therein compared with other passages concerning the second coming (with His saints – Rev 19:14), Armageddon battle (Rev 19:11-19) and millennial reign as King from Mt Zion (Rev 20:4). It’s also important to understand that these things are not attributed to the Father in the NT, only Yeshua. Yeshua is explicitly called “LORD” (YHWH) no less than 12 times in the passage (verses 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20 and 21) and “LORD (YHWH) of Hosts” on four occasions (verses 16, 17 and 21 [twice]). It seems obvious to me that the Holy Spirit Who inspired the book would not set out to deceive or confuse readers on the matter of Who YHWH is by assigning this name to the recipient who was not YHWH, therefore I conclude that Yeshua is called YHWH because He is YHWH!
Three questions for t8:
1. Is the central figure in Zechariah 14 described as YHWH in fact Yeshua? If not, precisely who is it? And what is you scriptural evidence for your choice?
2. Is Yeshua assigned the exclusively divine name “LORD” (i.e. YHWH) multiple times in this chapter?
3. If you agree that Zechariah 14 describes Yeshua, and that He is indeed called YHWH in this chapter, on what grounds do you argue that He is not YHWH when in this passage plainly says that He is??
Blessings
The answer to your post is easily summed up in these 2 verses of which there are numerous complimentary verses I could quote if I wanted.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…
God was in Christ. That is the answer. Just as God was in Christ when he came to earth, so God will be in him when he comes again.
So God will come, through Christ.
Remember God is invisible, so it's not like he will come in his own body where you will be able to touch him. God is invisible, he is a spirit, and he is bigger than you can imagine.
God will come to earth through the Christ who is Jesus.
Likewise God can reside in us too.
To think that God is a being wholly contained in a body is bit silly. God will be in Christ and he will still be present outside of Christ too.
God does all these things, and he sends his servants to do his bidding. Simple as that.
This also explains how God is the only savoiur and sends Christ to do his will thereby saving us through Christ.
This is God's will.
My understanding is that Zechariah 14 parallels the events described in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Zechariah states that God will gather all nations to fight against Jerusalem, and Ezekiel lists several nations, Persia, Lybia, and Ethopia, and others that will come against Jerusalem.
At some point the Lord will intervene against those coming against Jerusalem (the meaning of this word is “teaching of peace” and so these nations are coming against the church).
After God intervenes and punishes those coming against the church, there will be a 7 year peace treaty during which the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be offered up by those Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In the middle of this seven year period the Anti-Christ will stop the Jews from offering animal sacrifices, and 1290 days from this time the Anti-Christ will set himself up in the temple of God showing himself to be God (This is also called the abomination of desolation). At this time there will be a time of trouble such as has never been before and never again will be (This is called the great tribulation). Approximately 45 days from the onset of the great tribulation, the Church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
Since we who are born again Christians are the body of Christ, it could be that the scripture that states the the LORD's feet will touch the Mount of Olives refers to the two witnesses.
Quoting from Young's Literal Translation the scripture states:
Quote Zec 14:5 And ye have fled [to] the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones [are] with Thee. Jehovah will come for the church through the Lord Jesus. No, Jesus is not YHWH. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Note also that the literal translation does not say saints but Holy Ones.
This paralles the following scripture in Matthew and Mark:
Quote Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.After God intervenes against those coming against the church, and during the seven year period, most will come to worship God at Jerusalem, and to observe the feast of Tabernacles. This cannot mean literal Jerusalem (The word means “teaching of peace”), and so, people will go to worship God where the people of God who are teaching peace with God through the Lord Jesus are worshipping. We (that is our spirit) dwells within temporary tabernacles which is our flesh body. We will receive a spiritual body at the coming of the Lord for the church.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi:
I would just like to add the following scripture regarding worshipping at Jerusalem:
Quote Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ June 09 2009,21:11) The answer to your post is easily summed up in these 2 verses of which there are numerous complimentary verses I could quote if I wanted. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…
God was in Christ. That is the answer. Just as God was in Christ when he came to earth, so God will be in him when he comes again.
So God will come, through Christ.
Remember God is invisible, so it's not like he will come in his own body where you will be able to touch him. God is invisible, he is a spirit, and he is bigger than you can imagine.
God will come to earth through the Christ who is Jesus.
Likewise God can reside in us too.
To think that God is a being wholly contained in a body is bit silly. God will be in Christ and he will still be present outside of Christ too.
God does all these things, and he sends his servants to do his bidding. Simple as that.
This also explains how God is the only savoiur and sends Christ to do his will thereby saving us through Christ.
This is God's will.
Hi t8It took you 15 Months for that response?
Did you even read this part…
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 22 2008,03:23)
The Father, evidently, will still be in Heaven during this time. But here’s the important point I’ve been driving at – Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH on twelve separate occasions in Zechariah 14; verses 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20 and 21. Would the Bible ascribe the exclusively divine name to someone who is not YHWH?? I think not! That would be grossly misleading, to say the least. On this point it may be argued by t8 that Yeshua is assigned this name on account of His role as YHWH’s agent, i.e. YHWH, Yeshua’s Father, is ruling through Him therefore it is rightful that he bears His Father’s name. However this can be debunked by appealing to the complete absence of a parallel example. Nowhere else in scripture can we find an instance where an agent of YHWH is bestowed the name of YHWH (or any name for that matter) because he/she is acting on His behalf. Moses and Abraham often acted as YHWH’s agent, yet they are certainly never described as YHWH. This is also true of the NT believers, Paul and Peter were used by God but they are nowhere called God in the NT. Taken to a further extreme, any spirit-filled believer has at some time been ‘used’ by God and yet it’s more than inappropriate for us to be called YHWH, everyone knows this. What’s more, any notion that the law of agency applies to Yeshua in Zech 14 can be utterly dispelled upon reading verse 16 & 17:
Your post doesn't address this at all!How about the questions?
Blessings WJ
Hi 94
Quote (942767 @ June 09 2009,23:11) Jehovah will come for the church through the Lord Jesus. No, Jesus is not YHWH. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Note also that the literal translation does not say saints but Holy Ones.
But the Prophet Zechariah says explicitly the one who's feet touches the earth is “YHWH”!Where is the scripture that says, “God the Father” will leave heaven and come for the church”?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,17:50) Hi 94 Quote (942767 @ June 09 2009,23:11) Jehovah will come for the church through the Lord Jesus. No, Jesus is not YHWH. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Note also that the literal translation does not say saints but Holy Ones.
But the Prophet Zechariah says explicitly the one who's feet touches the earth is “YHWH”!Where is the scripture that says, “God the Father” will leave heaven and come for the church”?
Blessings WJ
WJ, it also says that out of Jesus mouth comes a sharp double-edged sword.Get over it WJ.
I think the Trinitarians had a good and fair chance to prove their case and they didn't deliver. Not for lack of skill, but lack of evidence for their argument.
I am pretty much done with this subject. God is the Father. I am convinced all the more now after I have debated with you guys for years because you have made me search the scriptures deeper, and the witness that the Father is the true God and he has a son is not just compelling, it is what scripture is about.
I am now focussing on other stuff.
Quote (t8 @ June 10 2009,04:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,17:50) Hi 94 Quote (942767 @ June 09 2009,23:11) Jehovah will come for the church through the Lord Jesus. No, Jesus is not YHWH. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Note also that the literal translation does not say saints but Holy Ones.
But the Prophet Zechariah says explicitly the one who's feet touches the earth is “YHWH”!Where is the scripture that says, “God the Father” will leave heaven and come for the church”?
Blessings WJ
WJ, it also says that out of Jesus mouth comes a sharp double-edged sword.Get over it WJ.
I think the Trinitarians had a good and fair chance to prove their case and they didn't deliver. Not for lack of skill, but lack of evidence for their argument.
I am pretty much done with this subject. God is the Father. I am convinced all the more now after I have debated with you guys for years because you have made me search the scriptures deeper, and the witness that the Father is the true God and he has a son is not just compelling, it is what scripture is about.
I am now focussing on other stuff.
Hi t8If I were you I would concede also, especially in light of all the evidence that claims Jesus is God!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
1Cor 8 really puts the trinity idea to bed does it not.
“For US
there is one God, the Father..”No trinity mentioned but God is ONE
That God is the Father.
Not Jesus or God's own Spirit that does His works but the FATHER
The Father is the God even of Jesus[jn20]
Jesus Christ FOR US is Lord .
Are you among US or following the blind into the pit?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2009,14:09) Hi WJ,
So you cannot accept 1 Cor 8?
Hi NHSo you cannot accept…
Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God”
Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
John 1:1—–> “the Word was God”
John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”
John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God”
Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”.
Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.”
Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
Heb 1:10—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”.
2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”
1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'.
Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
WJ
Hi WJ,
You can summon all your confusion and put it here but it does not help in your alignment of 1Cor 8.Perhaps Paul is the one who was deceived do you think?
NH
Just what I thought, you do not accept the scriptures that call Jesus God.
It was Paul that wrote…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
Here, I will paste the following which also confirms Paul calling Jesus God, YHWH who will place his feet on the Mt of Olives!
This is why you guys live in confusion and turmoil over certain scriptures. They do not reconcile with your false doctrines. So you have to create all kinds of apologetics and twisting or manipulating scriptures to make them work for you, rather than accepting them as they read.
You don’t get it, to Paul the Father and Jesus is his God that is why it is hard to tell sometimes who he is talking about. So Paul is very careful to make sure the readers do not mistake him for a Modalist, by giving the Father the title “God” and Jesus the title “Lord”, these titles are not exclusive to either one.
So, let’s look at the closer context…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
The Greek word for “appearing” is ‘epiphaneia’ which means;
1) an appearing, appearance
It is translated AV — appearing 5 times, brightness 1 time.
Do you guys have your eyes and ears open, because this is the double whammy.
As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear…
Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
First he says he will appear, and we know there are “no” scriptures that say the Father is going to appear, or that the Father is who we are looking for to return.
But to put the nail in the coffin, Paul uses the word “epiphaneia” exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ return in all the 6 times he used it in the NT.
to keep this command without spot or blame until “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, 1 Tim 6:14
but it has now been revealed through “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
In the presence of God and of “CHRIST JESUS, WHO WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, AND IN VIEW OF HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) AND HIS KINGDOM”, I give you this charge: 2 Tim 4:1
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which “THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY–AND NOT ONLY TO ME, BUT ALSO TO ALL WHO HAVE LONGED FOR HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA)”. 2 Tim 4:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom “THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY BY THE SPLENDOR (EPIPHANEIA) OF HIS COMING”. 2 Thess 2:8
This scriptural fact together with the Grandville Sharp rule leaves Titus 2:13 unambiguous as to Paul’s confession that Jesus is his Great God and Savior.
Couple that with what Paul wrote In Phil 2 that Jesus was “in very nature God” and that he thought it not robbery to be equal to God the Father, along with this scripture which also fits Grandville Sharps rule…
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our “ONLY MASTER AND LORD, JESUS CHRIST”. Jude 1:4
And another scripture that follows the rule is…
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 Peter who was also a witness of Jesus and Thomas confession claims Jesus as his God and Savior.
You guys can close your eyes and ears if you want, but scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is called God by the Apostles. Now you can believe that he is “a god” or a false god, or no god at all, but the fact remains that the Trinitarian is following biblical truth by confessing as the Apostles did that Jesus is their Lord and God. This does not take away from the Father for it is also the Father that declared him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. We are to honor the Son “even as” the Father. This is his commandment!
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28
There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
So my confession is “I am looking for the appearing of my Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ my Lord!
How about you NH, do you follow the scriptures with your confession like Pauls?
It looks to me like Paul is not the one decieved, but you are.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,17:50) Hi 94 Quote (942767 @ June 09 2009,23:11) Jehovah will come for the church through the Lord Jesus. No, Jesus is not YHWH. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Note also that the literal translation does not say saints but Holy Ones.
But the Prophet Zechariah says explicitly the one who's feet touches the earth is “YHWH”!Where is the scripture that says, “God the Father” will leave heaven and come for the church”?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:Beginning with the head of the church, the Lord Jesus, and we who are his disciples are the Holy Temple of God. Does YHWH literally have feet?
The Father does not have to leave his throne to come for the church, He can be every where by His Spirit.
Jesus said the following:
Quote Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
And all of the verses that Isaiah states are referring to Jesus and saying that he is YHWH, namely Zech. 14:1,3,5,7,9,12,13,16,17,18,20.&21, are not referring to Jesus but to God Himself.
There is “Only One God”, YHWH, the Father.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WJ,
Still struggling with Who your God is?
Should you add trinity ideas to the mix to help?No go back to scriptural teaching and find the God of the Jews.
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