- This topic has 579 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Mike and others……..Jesus said (not me)….“I “am” the root and offspring of David”, and again, PAUL said (not me)….Acts 2:30…..”therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn, with an oath to him (King David), “that “OF”, his loins, ACCORDING TO THE “FLESH” , he would raise up Christ to set on HIS (King David’s) throne; 31, He (king David) seening this before spoke of the resurection of Christ, that his soul (the complete human being) was not left in hell (the grave) neither his “FLESH” did see corruption.
Question is do you people ,”trully” believe what Jesus and Paul said?
Peace and love to you all and yours………..gene
Hi Mike,
YOU: scripture says in at least three places that Jesus was a creation of God at that point (“firstborn of every creature”, “Yahweh created me as the first of His works”, “the beginning of the creation of God”), not begotten of God. We also must consider what Psalm 2:7 is referring to – which sounds to me like when God exalted Jesus in heaven and made him Lord of heaven and earth (“I have installed my king on Zion – this day I have begotten you”).
ME: Let’s start with, “Yahweh created me as the first of His works” and your claim this supports a pre-existing Jesus.
This passages from Proverbs 8 is not speaking of Jesus, it is speaking of the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, to which the Son of Man Jesus himself received at the river Jordan fulfilling God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah.
Proverbs 8: 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Compare Proverbs 8 with that of Proverbs 3, even though I think Proverbs 8 itself does a good job at clearly establishing who was set up from the beginning.
Proverbs 3: 13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
Proverbs 8: 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:3 0 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Mike, Jesus was a Son of Man who received the Spirit of Wisdom of Understanding and that of Council and Might, through it he himself heard instruction and was wise. SHE was in him and by such he did not fail in God’s commands and it brought unto him his resurrection of life. This Jesus did not pre-exist as her, then leave that glory behind becoming a human baby with no wisdom, not even able to talk or walk and then grow being filled with her and have God’s grace upon him and then receive in fullness at the river Jordan. You want to tell me that the Jesus immersed in water came up to have his own self descend upon him like a dove?
SHE is a direct attribute of YHVH Himself and king Solomon wrote Proverbs having her in him, just as Jesus spoke God’s word having been filled with her without measure.
Further, Jesus is the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory, where she is in him where he executes judgement not by his own eyes and ears but through her.
Hi Mike,
I do not believe at all that Paul is speaking of two creations in Colossians 1.
The context clearly shows Paul is speaking of one creation, giving further clarity of that creation spoken of in verse 15 in verse 18, where Paul is speaking of he who was raised from the dead receiving his inheritance to which is also our own inheritance. Paul is speaking of our joint inheritance with Christ as well as Christ’s special position in that inheritance as a firstborn.
Coll 2:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is THE BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
A man shed his blood bringing forth redemption and thus also a beginning to an Eternal Creation to which started with this man upon his resurrection from the dead. We are directly told that this man approved of by God was slain by the foreknowledge of YHVH. We are directly told that God declared the end from the beginning, which that end is itself a beginning, one of eternal righteousness as God had also promised before the world was, eternal life. Nothing would have been created if it were not for this MAN brining forth a redemption, all things were created by reason of and for him. All things were created to bring all things into an Eternal Creation.
This son of man was raised a firstborn, receiving the promised Holy Spirit and eternal life. Paul is speaking of he who shed his blood and was raised from the dead as he who exists in the image of God. The Son of Man that was exalted to sit at God’s right hand is he who exists in the image of God. The Son of Man who is returning in our Father’s glory is he who exists in the image of God.
God’s promise was also that the animals would be changed, they would no longer be wild, where the lamb will peacefully dwell with the lion. The man Jesus who shed his blood is the firstborn of every creature in the context Paul clearly established in this chapter, the creation coming through a redemption through a promised inheritance of a new heaven and earth. Once again, nothing would have been created if it were not for this man.
LU: The name YHVH is changed to YHVH Our Righteousness.
Seems odd to even call that a “change” to someone’s name. Take King Richard, for instance. His bravery caused him to be known as Richard the Lionheart, but I don’t think anyone would consider that a matter of his name being changed. Here are some names Yahweh was called in the OT…
Would you consider any of those a matter of Yahweh changing His name to a different name?
LU: The Son is YHVH as well as His Father in the OT.
No. Jesus was given a NEW name that is ABOVE all other names. Your idea that Jesus was already named “Yahweh”, and then was given the new HIGHER name “Yahweh Our Righteousness” results in Jesus having a HIGHER name than his own God, Yahweh.
LU: One is seen by man and the other was unseen by man.
No. The Biblical teaching is that GOD has never been seen by man. If you think GOD is a combo, then it is the combo that has never been seen by man. After all, the Bible certainly doesn’t teach that “one of the members of God” has never been seen by men, right?
LU: YHVH Our Righteousness is a name given after the cross, hence the future tense of “will be called.”
The “will be called” speaks of a servant and a city that WILL both be called after the name of Yahweh. It doesn’t speak of a servant of Yahweh whose name will change from “Yahweh” to “Yahweh Our Righteousness”, resulting in the servant having a higher name than his own Master and God.
LU: Regarding the names written on the saints’ foreheads in Revelation, the context speaks of three names but does not clarify those names for us. Therefore, I believe that you are merely guessing at what the name/names are.
I brought this up to you when it first dawned on me – about a month ago. It had never crossed my mind before then. Since then, I’ve done just a very little bit of looking into it, and what I’ve already found convinces me. I’ll lay out my case…
1. The servant and the city WILL BE called by the name of God, “Yahweh”.
2. Adding “our righteousness” or “IS our righteousness” (as it’s properly translated) to the end of “Yahweh” doesn’t make it a DIFFERENT name any more than Yahweh being called by those names on the list above means Yahweh has CHANGED His name to DIFFERENT ones multiple times throughout the scriptures.
3. Jesus was given a NEW name that is HIGHER than all other names. That can’t possibly mean that Jesus has a name HIGHER than “Yahweh” – which is the highest name, AND the name of the One who exalted Jesus and GAVE him his new name in the first place.
4. Jesus said that those who overcome will have…
a. The name of his God (which we know is Yahweh, and whom we know is the epitome of Righteousness. He is even called “God My Righteousness” by David in Psalm 4:1.)
b. The name of the city of his God (which we know will be “Yahweh Is Our Righteousness”).
c. Jesus’ own new name (which we know is “Yahweh Is Our Righteousness”).
I’ll summarize in a separate post to make it abundantly clear…
Revelation 3:12… I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
We know that the name of the city is “Yahweh Is Our Righteousness” from Jeremiah 33:16. That one is a given.
We also know the name of the righteous branch God would raise up to replace David on the throne would be called “Yahweh Is Our Righteousness”. That branch is Jesus the Christ of God. So we now know that two of the names Jesus referenced are the same exact name.
And we know that Yahweh Himself is the author of righteousness and is even called “The Righteous God” by David in Ps 4:11.
Is it that much of a stretch than to conclude that Jesus will write ONE name on them – which is the name of his God, then name of the city of his God, and his new name that is “the name above all names”?
Or is it better to assume that two of the names (that of the city and that of the servant) will be the same, but there will also be a SECOND name (that of the servant’s God) that will be a little LOWER than the name of that God’s servant and that God’s city?
Kathi, it will be one name. And it is a NEW name for Jesus. Jesus was never called “Yahweh” in the OT, and your doctrine just keeps crumbling down one stone at a time.
Here goes another stone in my next post…
Kathi, you tell us that the word “God” (in reference to the Most High) describes a combo of two persons who make up one God, right?
What then does it mean when Jesus calls the Father “my God”?
Jesus certainly isn’t describing a combo of two persons, right? So what does the word “God” (in reference to the Most High) mean when JESUS uses that word?
Thanks.
Carmel: Mike, This is the PROPER list:
ENJOY THE TRUTH!
WHICH YOU DENY!
Hey there Carmel. I’m going to pick just a few of Jesus’ titles out of your long list to discuss…
Bread of God – John 6:33; 50
Christ of God – Luke 9:20
Holy One of God – Mark 1:24
Image of God – 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15
Lamb of God – John 1:29
Son of God – Luke 1:35
Wisdom of God – 1 Corinthians 1:24
Word of God – Revelation 19:13
All of these contain the phrase “of God”. What does that phrase mean to you?
Pro Tip: Replace the word “God” with the word “Carmel” in each of those, determine what the phrase “of Carmel” would indicate, and then apply that reasoning to your answer to my question.
Thanks.
Jodi: I don’t see it that way actually, Jesus coming to life again is not his begetting, him upon coming to life receiving the Spirit for all eternity is his begetting.
Luke 1:15… He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
It’s true that Jesus’ birth on earth would be a begetting. And his being raised from the dead would be another one.
But it’s also true that all throughout the NT, the disciples who have received the Holy Spirit speak as if they have been (past tense) begotten of God. (1 John 4:7, 1 Peter 1:23, and many more.)
I concede that your interpretation is at least as valid as mine.
Hi Mike,
YOU: As you know, I believe Jesus existed in heaven before being born of God and Mary on earth. But scripture says in at least three places that Jesus was a creation of God at that point (“firstborn of every creature”, “Yahweh created me as the first of His works”, “the beginning of the creation of God”), not begotten of God. We also must consider what Psalm 2:7 is referring to – which sounds to me like when God exalted Jesus in heaven and made him Lord of heaven and earth (“I have installed my king on Zion – this day I have begotten you”).
ME: Psalms 2 is a prophecy,
Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Jesus was anointed of the Spirit and sent out into the world where he would be persecuted unto his death by wicked rulers for the works he did through the Spirit. They had no clue that he would rise from the dead to become a kings of kings and bring forth wrath upon the wicked.
Pslam 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Isaiah 11 Prophecy not yet fully fulfilled!!
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Mike, Jesus is great because he was raised from the dead receiving the promised Spirit whereby that Spirit he is returning as the promised Son of Jesse in our Father’s glory coming to bring peace and rest upon the earth. Through the Spirit he’s bringing forth righteous judgment and destroying the wicked. He is not great because he pre-existed as some one of a kind spirit son. He is great as the promised son of David to whom God promised to give his mercies to and make him into a begotten Son. He is declared that Son upon him rising from the dead and being begotten of God’s Spirit.
It’s ALL THROUGH the SPIRIT, it doesn’t matter what kind of living being he is, though we are repeatedly told he is a human being, it’s about the Spirit dwelling in that being that makes him a Son and which makes him great.
Jodi: Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
I concede that the Hebrew word means either “cause” or “make” in this context. But based on what you wrote, we agree that doesn’t mean we will be robots lacking our own free will. I think the true meaning of the passage you quoted is more akin to this teaching from Jesus…
John 16:13… But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
Even after David was filled with the Holy Spirit, he committed murder, right? So the Spirit clearly doesn’t MAKE you do one thing, or FORCE you to not do something else.
You have scripturally supported your statement. I hold to my statement, nonetheless, that God’s Spirit will guide/lead/teach people, but not overtake their own free will and forcibly make them do some things, while prohibiting them from doing other things.
Cheers.
Jodi: Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
These two verses you just quoted seem to argue for my interpretation, and against yours, Jodi. He was RAISED and EXALTED, thereby having received the promised Holy Spirit.
And God RAISED up Jesus, thereby fulfilling Ps 2:7… this day I have begotten thee.
Just saying. 😉
Jodi: My belief from scripture is that Jesus’s conception in a virgin occurred through the power of God’s Spirit where by that power God took Joseph’s seed and fertilized Mary’s egg making a true human being.
Matthew 1:18-20…This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.”
That seems pretty straightforward to me, Jodi. Mary got pregnant before having sex with Joseph. Joseph found out she was pregnant, and knew the child couldn’t be his, and so planned to divorce her quietly. Then an angel appeared to him and told him not to worry, because the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit, ie: God.
Jodi: Mike, so your belief is an already existing living being who was solely born of God being an only begotten Son, a firstborn overall creation at the beginning, came down to earth and essentially acted as sperm fertilizing Mary’s egg?
No, that is not my belief. I was really itching to get deep into this preexistence topic with you a couple of years ago. You might remember me asking for an in depth discussion. But then they unleashed the plandemic on the world, and you were focusing your time on that and other things, and were absent for a couple of years.
I still really, truly, and sincerely want to have a very deep and respectful discussion with you on this subject. If you are willing, we can take it to the “Preexistence” thread or something.
The thing is that I’ve also been trying for a very long time to get Kathi focused on a single thread where we could challenge, and she could defend, her Yahweh Unity idea. And that is this thread right here. I’m afraid that if we veer off into a preexistence discussion here, it will defeat both of my plans to have in depth discussions with her on the Unity, and with you on preexistence.
What say you?
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply and reading through my posts 🙂
We read in Luke 1 that John was filled with the Spirit even in his mother’s womb.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Later in Luke 1 we read concerning Jesus,
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Yes there are disciples who were begotten of the Spirit of God but it was all by a measure, Jesus is the ONLY mortal human said to be begotten of the Spirit WITHOUT measure, a calling to righteousness according to Isaiah which occurred at the river.
He rose from the dead because he could not be held to the penalty of death because he was without sin, which the Spirit in him caused that!
When he rose from the dead he likewise received the Spirit, it was given according to a promise, where God had promised to rest His Spirit in a manner that causes a man to walk in all of God’s ways and thus no sin and no death, only life eternal. He likewise became a firstborn of many as we are promised that Spirit as well.
This is what Paul speaks to in Romans 8, the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God and if children than heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and we are led by the Spirit by having it dwell in us. God promised directly that he would raise us from the dead and put His Spirit IN us where it would CAUSE us to walk in all his ways. Jesus as a mortal man was the only begotten regarding this, but he was raised as a first begotten of many to follow.
Hi Mike,
This is straight forward to me according to Matthew, that the origin of Jesus comes from Joseph, that he is begotten/fathered by Joseph.
1 The book of the generation (genesis, source/origin) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; ..going all the way to Joseph.
and further we read, 17 So all the generations (genea/fathered/that which has been begotten by/men of the same stock) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
The angel tells Joseph
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Joseph is being told that Mary’s virgin conception is the fulfilled prophecy that was for a sign unto the house of David concerning David’s heir to his throne. He’s being told that the child is the promised Emmanuel which speaks to other prophecies of a son of David being a savior and eternal king over David’s throne. We are directly told that the PURPOSE of the virgin birth was for a SIGN and being that it was a virgin birth, it would therefore have to be of the power of God’s Spirit in order to occur!
The virgin birth occurring because God was creating an only begotten son is not scriptural, it’s man’s invention, it’s also a total pagan concept as well, gods impregnating human women.
I Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
First you have a son of David coming from his sons and then you have God being a Father unto him.
Joseph is a son of David being of his sons as Matthew directly tells us and Matthew as well directly tells us that Jesus’s Genesis/Origin comes from Joseph, that he is Genea/Begotten by Joseph of his stock, of his genes.
Jodi: The angel tells Joseph:
20 But while he thought on these things…
Why did you start in verse 20, and also disregard what I just showed you from verses 18 and 19?
Jodi: 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
That seems to say that Jesus would have the spirit and power that Elijah had when he was on earth.
Jodi: Jesus is the ONLY mortal human said to be begotten of the Spirit WITHOUT measure, a calling to righteousness according to Isaiah which occurred at the river.
Could be translated as “unmeasurable Spirit” too. But show me how you’ve linked this occurring at the river with Isaiah. Thanks.
(And in case you haven’t noticed, I’m overlooking your preexistence arguments for now. If you’d like to share your understanding and reasoning and scriptures with me as much as I’ve been wanting for years to share mine with you, let’s make a thread or take it to an already existing preexistence thread. I’d personally prefer a private thread where just the two of us could really get down to the nitty gritty of it all. Let me know and I’ll set it up.)
Oh my this has been a busy place today :). I guess I’m gonna have to search for questions for me to answer, I finally have some time this evening to spend here. Anybody want to point me to their toughest?? Thanks LU
Mike,
You asked:
Kathi, you tell us that the word “God” (in reference to the Most High) describes a combo of two persons who make up one God, right?
What then does it mean when Jesus calls the Father “my God”?
Jesus certainly isn’t describing a combo of two persons, right? So what does the word “God” (in reference to the Most High) mean when JESUS uses that word?
Sometimes the word “God” is directed to one person (the Father whose name is YHVH), sometimes another person (the Son whose name is YHVH, named after His Father) and sometimes both of those persons as a unity (the YHVH Unity).
When Jesus calls the Father “my God” it is because the Father is greater than He in that the Father beget Him and not the other way around. They are the same type of being and they act as one God together…in unity as a perfect Father and Son would.
Mike,
Regarding this post:
LU: I think the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be the Yahweh that had been seen by Abraham and Jacob, for instance.
Mike:
Exodus 33… 19“I will cause all My goodness to pass before you,” Yahweh replied, “and I will proclaim My name—Yahweh—in your presence…” 20But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.”
No man has ever seen Yahweh, Kathi. Men have, however, seen spirit messengers of Yahweh in the Bible, and often address these messengers of Yahweh as “Yahweh”.
Do you have any NT scriptural support that the Jews of Jesus’ time on earth were aware of a “Yahweh Unity”, and knew that one of the Yahwehs could be seen by men, while the other could not? Thanks.
All that being said, let’s run with your understanding that the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be the Yahweh who could be seen by men.
Did Jesus affirm their accusation or deny it? Thanks.
All good questions, Mike. First I will address this comment:
Jesus couldn’t possibly be God then, since no man has ever seen God (John 1:18 – written long after John and thousands of men on earth had seen Jesus). John’s claim also includes Abraham and Jacob – and is supported by Yahweh Himself…
Evidently, the Father is unseen, His image…the Son, can be seen. The Son has the same name of YHVH as the Father who gave that name to Him. John 17.
Men have, however, seen spirit messengers of Yahweh in the Bible, and often address these messengers of Yahweh as “Yahweh”.
There are messengers that pass on YHVH’s words and there is the image of YHVH, the Son who is speaking and is named YHVH because that is the Son’s name, YHVH His father gave Him (the Son) His same name.
Do you have any NT scriptural support that the Jews of Jesus’ time on earth were aware of a “Yahweh Unity”, and knew that one of the Yahwehs could be seen by men, while the other could not?
John 14: 7-11
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Since Jesus is the image of the Father and portrayed the character of the Father, spoke the Father’s words and did the Father’s actions, Philip has essentially seen the Father through all of that.
All that being said, let’s run with your understanding that the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be the Yahweh who could be seen by men.
Did Jesus affirm their accusation or deny it?
Jesus confirmed that He is properly called “God.” If the created beings were called god, how much more the uncreated and only begotten Son of God would be called “God,” even “YHVH God.”
Hi Mike,
YOU: “Why did you start in verse 20, and also disregard what I just showed you from verses 18 and 19?”
ME:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
I did not disregard this, I explain my position to this scripture directly when I said and put in bold, ” We are directly told that the PURPOSE of the virgin birth was for a SIGN and being that it was a virgin birth, it would therefore have to be of the power of God’s Spirit in order to occur!”
scripture, “she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Me, “it would therefore have to be of the power of God’s Spirit in order to occur!”
You say the text declares the virgin Mary was found with child and that child was of the Holy Spirit, correct?
I say the text declares the founding of the virgin Mary with child is of the Holy Spirit. How else could a virgin be found with child, if not by the Holy Spirit? They didn’t have artificial insemination back then, today a virgin can easily be found with child, but back then it could only be of the Holy Spirit for such to occur.
As to verse 19, “Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.”
I didn’t see the point in brining this up since the angel comes to clarify things for Joseph.
Hi Mike,
Jodi: 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
YOU: That seems to say that Jesus would have the spirit and power that Elijah had when he was on earth.
I don’t see what your point is here, though I believe that verse is speaking of John preparing the way for the lord Jesus. If it were speaking of Jesus no matter, it doesn’t pose at all anything against my position.
The passage in Luke was speaking of John, not Jesus, as we also read below,
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Jesus is the prophet like that of Moses.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
