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JustAsking………..Welcome to the site, hope you can find answers to you inquires here.
The term the beginning and the end of the creation of GOD, is to me Jesus is saying< I am the first, and the last, will also be like me in the kingdom of GOD.
all who enter into the Kingdom of GOD will do it the same as He DID. that also applies for “the first and the last”.peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
hi justask
good point ,but like always the trinitarians dont answer questions they only put in controversy ,doughts,mis concepts,twisting the word of God in to their own personal view,not the truth,
they explain the entire bible in one verse,this remind me of Genesis in wich one question was ask from Satan it it cost us our lives.
this doctrine is very similar,make people believe in a misterious God,so for thier on pupose they will take away the gift of live through Christ sacrifice.amencon……….You are right there are two lords mentioned in scriptures, King David said the LORD (God)said unto MY Lord (Jesus Christ), sit on my right hand until (I) The LORD GOD, make your (Lord Jesus') enemies your footstool.
There exists the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, (AND) THE Lord JESUS CHRIST. BOTH ARE Lords.
Then he said, “Tomorrow.” So he said, “May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our 'Elohim. (Exodus 8:10)
“For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. (Exodus 9:14)
“To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is 'Elohim; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)
“Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is 'Elohim in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39)
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our 'Elohim, the Lord is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)
`See now that I, I am He, And there is no 'Elohim besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
“There is none like the 'Elohim of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. (Deuteronomy 33:26)
“There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our 'Elohim. (1 Samuel 2:2)
“For this reason Thou art great, O Lord 'Elohim; for there is none like Thee, and there is no 'Elohim besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22)
And he said, “O Lord, the 'Elohim of Israel, there is no 'Elohim like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who art keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart, (1 Kings 8:23)
so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is 'Elohim; there is no one else. (1 Kings 8:60)
He trusted in the Lord, the 'Elohim of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him. (2 Kings 18:5)
“O Lord, there is none like Thee, neither is there any 'Elohim besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)
And he said, “O Lord, the 'Elohim of Israel, there is no 'Elohim like Thee in heaven or on earth, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart;” (2 Chronicles 6:14)
Many, O Lord my 'Elohim, are the wonders which Thou hast done, And Thy thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with Thee; If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. (Psalm 40:5)
There is no one like Thee among the gods, O Lord; Nor are there any works like Thine. (Psalm 86:8)
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no 'Elohim formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me.” (Isaiah 43:10-11)
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the first and I am the last, And there is no 'Elohim besides Me.'” (Isaiah 44:6)
`Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any 'Elohim besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'” (Isaiah 44:8)
“I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no 'Elohim. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,” (Isaiah 45:5-6)
Thus says the Lord, “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, 'Elohim is with you, and there is none else, No other 'Elohim.'” (Isaiah 45:14)
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the 'Elohim who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the Lord, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18)
“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other 'Elohim besides Me, A righteous 'Elohim and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am 'Elohim, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:21-22)
“Remember the former things long past, For I am 'Elohim, and there is no other; I am 'Elohim, and there is no one like Me, (Isaiah 46:9)
There is none like Thee, O Lord; Thou art great, and great is Thy name in might. (Jeremiah 10:6)
Yet I have been the Lord your 'Elohim Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. (Hosea 13:4)
“Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the Lord your 'Elohim And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. (Joel 2:27)
“Do we not all have one father? Has not one 'Elohim created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)
Yeshua HaMoshiach answered, “The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our 'Elohim is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your 'Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' “The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;” (Mark 12:29-32)
“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only 'Elohim? (John 5:44)
“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even 'Elohim.” (John 8:41)
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no 'Elohim but one. (1 Corinthians 8:4)
yet for us there is but one 'Elohim, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Yeshua HaMoshiach, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one 'Elohim and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
For there is one 'Elohim, and one mediator also between 'Elohim and men, the man Yeshua HaMoshiach, (1 Timothy 2:5)
For when 'Elohim made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Hebrews 6:13)
You believe that 'Elohim is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)
hi con
this is well known if you read the scriptures ,only new students are not aware of those scriptures,there is plenthy of info on this every were.Con………..AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, BROTHER, We have (ONLY) (ONE) GOD, AND (NO) OTHERS. And so does Jesus our Brother, he has the same GOD as WE DO> Good post brother
Blessings on you and yours…………………………gene
hi all
about mathew 28;19terraricca
Group: Members
Posts: 767
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Dec. 23 2009,13:58——————————————————————————–
hi all
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Math;28.19you know this scripture if we look at it in a different angle like this ;baptizing them IN
the FATHER
the SON
the Holy Spirit
this is done in the name of………………
so i can see what WJ;try to say that the trinity does not exist ,
we know who is the father,we know who is the son,and we know what is the holy spirit dont we?this scripture says to make the father known and the son known all through the Holy spirit,….this is true
thanks WJ i just find this out tonight.
Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 23 2009,04:40) Hi All,
This is my first time in this Forum but I have read a great deal of what has been written concerning the topic of the Trinity and find the varied responses fascinating (and sometimes sad for some parties in the debate).I, myself, do not believe in the Trinity and have been looking for somewhere to ask questions about it for a very long time.
I will be asking questions and making suggestions as to my own views over time like many of those here before me – but for the immediate present can I ask what is meant by Jesus being “IN THE FORM OF GOD”(Philippians 2:5-6)?
The Bible tells us that God is a Spirit – an invisible being. Perhaps this is what that verse is saying about Jesus while he is with his father in heaven?
Also, I have just watched a video film about Joseph in Egypt. In that story I heard the Pharoah being worshipped as something like “Rah – God on Earth” (Not sure of the spelling of (Rah).
The point is this: Does the Trinitarian Creed make it that Jesus is also being Called “God on Earth”?
(viz: Satan wanting us to worship Jesus as “God on Earth” in clear or erronous defiance of Scripture: “Worship God [the Father – Jehovah – YahWeh – The 'I AM']”And lastly – for now: Can I challenge any Trinitarian to 'walk through' Revelations and explain – honestly and without prejudice – who is speaking or whom is being spoken of concerning “The Alpha and The Omega”, “The First and The Last”, “The Beginning and the End”, as it seems clear to me that there are clear distinctions that only a desperate person could be blinded by (p.s. I know that God tell us that it will be so and I am sadly amused by the desperate MISQUOTES that Trinitarians make to justify thier man-made Creed).
Hi:My understanding of Phillipians 2:6-7 is that the Apostle Paul is using the ministry of Jesus on earth to show us and example of humility. He was on earth as God's Christ, as God's representative to humanity, and yet, he did not let this postion of authority go to his head, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Being in the Form of God is present tense and refers to his postion as God's Christ and does not refer to his position in some pre-existent state. In his postion as God's Christ, he had power to forgive sins, for example.
Love in Christ,
Martyhi 94
Being in the Form of God is present tense and refers to his postion as God's Christ and does not refer to his position in some pre-existent state. In his position as God'sthis just means that he had the same position that Moses had when he received is orders from God and give them to his brother Aaron,
o 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
Exo 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
Exo 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God
moses was the shadow to come ,the reality is Christ.942767……….You have properly stated it , the word should be rendered (“who (EXISTING) in the Nature of GOD > It is present tense.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2009,07:38) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 15 2009,21:30) The Trinity Teaching, is it a Clean or Unclean Spirit?
To all.Is a thread created to decide if a Trinitarian is unclean or clean, fruitful or judgemental?
WJ
What's fruit got to do with anything?
Does the Trinity produce fruit? Should we stop discussing it?Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 23 2009,04:40) Hi All,
This is my first time in this Forum but I have read a great deal of what has been written concerning the topic of the Trinity and find the varied responses fascinating (and sometimes sad for some parties in the debate).I, myself, do not believe in the Trinity and have been looking for somewhere to ask questions about it for a very long time.
I will be asking questions and making suggestions as to my own views over time like many of those here before me – but for the immediate present can I ask what is meant by Jesus being “IN THE FORM OF GOD”(Philippians 2:5-6)?
The Bible tells us that God is a Spirit – an invisible being. Perhaps this is what that verse is saying about Jesus while he is with his father in heaven?
Also, I have just watched a video film about Joseph in Egypt. In that story I heard the Pharoah being worshipped as something like “Rah – God on Earth” (Not sure of the spelling of (Rah).
The point is this: Does the Trinitarian Creed make it that Jesus is also being Called “God on Earth”?
(viz: Satan wanting us to worship Jesus as “God on Earth” in clear or erronous defiance of Scripture: “Worship God [the Father – Jehovah – YahWeh – The 'I AM']”And lastly – for now: Can I challenge any Trinitarian to 'walk through' Revelations and explain – honestly and without prejudice – who is speaking or whom is being spoken of concerning “The Alpha and The Omega”, “The First and The Last”, “The Beginning and the End”, as it seems clear to me that there are clear distinctions that only a desperate person could be blinded by (p.s. I know that God tell us that it will be so and I am sadly amused by the desperate MISQUOTES that Trinitarians make to justify thier man-made Creed).
I have posted several times about Phil. The problem us that many Trinitarians and it appears you too have a wrong understanding of this portion of scripture based on a preconceived idea of doctrine. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existent Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –
Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction
God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and Eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.Adam equated himsel
f equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own kingdom.In the language of the Old Testament there are two distinct forms of the word “lord.”
One means G-d, the other a superior who is not G-d.
The oracle which predicts the Messiah, the Lord Yashuw'ah (Ps. 110:1) gives him the title “lord,” which refers to a person who is not G-d.
To distinguish Deity from non-Deity, the Hebrew Old Testament speaks of the Lord G-d as ADONAI (449 times) and of superiors who are not G-d as ADONI (my lord) 195 times.
In Psalm 110:1 the LORD (here Yahweh, the personal name of G-d) addresses a prophecy to David's lord, the Messiah.
Yashuw'ah and the New Testament writers, as well as the rabbis, knew that this was a prophecy about the Messiah (see the conversation in Matt. 22:41-46).
The “lord” addressed by Yahweh is given the title ADONI (my lord), an address never used of Deity.
Notice how important this Psalm is for New Testament Christianity:
“It is clear from the Apostles' quotation of the Old Testament that they had a strong preference for particular passages – Psalm 110 was the most favored of all”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2010,06:52) Hi TT,
Sunrays emanate from the sun but are not that sun.
God was in His son filling him with light and peace.
The moment the sun appeared so did the rays. The moment the rays disappear so does the sun. Therefore, sun rays are sun.thinker
I have been doing a little Web Surfing about the trinity and am amazed at the amount of information that 'attest' to the doctrine BUT never mention the Holy Spirit – In other words, they 'attest' to a 'Bi-une' God and only by happenstance is the Holy spirit mentioned with the usual quotes taken out of context.
There are swathes of writings claiming that God and his Son are a Trinity [by exclusion of mention of the Holy Spirit] – something that even on this Forum I have noticed and mentioned.
If you were part of a Threesome of Co-Equal Company Directors for one Company but only two of your co-Directors were talked about as being the Company Directors would you be please?, annoyed?, ambivalant?
please take the text below with a spirit of humour (although I prefer Southern Comfort!)
Three Co-Equal Gods – but given different statuses (stati?)
Why does God … why does the father get to sit in Glorious Light in the 'Power Seat' but the Co-equal Jesus has to stand at his side? And the Holy Spirit? What is a Spirit in the Spirit world like – surely God wants us to know him – isn' that why he sent his son – a Junior God?
Why does one Co-equal God get to suffer as a HUMAN eating the dust of the earth and drinking bitter wine!!! – AND DIE a Real Death…(Can A God Die?) while the other two bask in the glorious Heavens eating Ferrero Rocher and drinking Tequila Sunrise and Dawn Honeydew.
Hardly seems EQUAL to me.
Constitutionalist said:
Quote To distinguish Deity from non-Deity, the Hebrew Old Testament speaks of the Lord G-d as ADONAI (449 times) and of superiors who are not G-d as ADONI (my lord) 195 times. TO ALL:
I am very happy that Con said that “Adonai” is a title for God. David received the word, “Jehovah said to my Lord (Adoni), sit thou on my right hand” (Ps. 110:1).
In verse 5 David replied to Jehovah saying, “Adonai (God) is at your right hand.” So David saw His Adoni as His Adonai.
thanks Con,
thinker
Nick, you got there before me (Re: Sun rays are not the Sun…ha ha! )
Sorry TT, I laughed at your statement – not at you! unless your statement IS you? I realise you made a mistake in the poor analogy.)
JustAskin said:
Quote Ihave been doing a little Web Surfing about the trinity and am amazed at the amount of information that 'attest' to the doctrine BUT never mention the Holy Spirit – In other words, they 'attest' to a 'Bi-une' God and only by happenstance is the Holy spirit mentioned with the usual quotes taken out of context.
JA,I am very glad to see you studying these things. The reason you see little mention of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus said that the Spirit would not speak of Himself but would “glorify Me.”
This is how we know that Pentecostals speak error because they glorify the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit Himself glorifies Jesus. This is how we know that those who deny Jesus is God are in error because they glorify the Father. But Jesus said, “He shall glorify Me.”
So it's not that trinitarians are binitarians. It's that they know that the Holy Spirit has a behind the scenes role. Jesus even said that the Spirit's ministry is unheard and unseen (John 3:8).
thinker
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