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TT, I don't laugh this time but feel sorry for you – your last post to Nick just shows that your thinking is patently faulty (Why did you call yourself “The Thinker” and choose an Ape for your Avatar?)
I have restrained myself from making comment before as I felt that you were worthy of perseverance
(WJ is totally lost)
but I see now that you cannot change unless God chooses to do so like he did with Paul?God chose Paul but let Jesus carry out the act – Note as an aside that only Paul's attitude towards God and the Messenger of God changed – not his Nature – his tenaciousness – his zeal.
God used him as an example of how even the worst human sinner (Not Angels) can be turned to God through correct belief in Jesus. Remember that Paul was also a jew and also awaiting the arrival of the Messiah and was persuing wrongful ideas of who Jesus (was to be). Can I hope that you do not have to be [even more] blinded before you come to change your realisation of the correct truth about the “One True God” “The Only True God” Jehovah GOD and his only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,07:13) Nick, you got there before me (Re: Sun rays are not the Sun…ha ha! ) Sorry TT, I laughed at your statement – not at you! unless your statement IS you? I realise you made a mistake in the poor analogy.)
JA,Did you see my reply to Nick. If sun rays are not sun then what ere they? It's easy to laugh at my analogy. But it is quite a feat to refute it.
The moment the sun appeared so did the rays, The moment the rays disappear so does the sun. The sun keeps its place and it orbit. But it is its rays come down and touch us.
The Father kept His place in heaven. But it was the Son that came down and touched them.
The Son is the emanation of God's glory.
Answer my question: If sun rays are not sun then what are they?
thinker
JustAskin said:
Quote TT, I don't laugh this time but feel sorry for you – your last post to Nick just shows that your thinking is patently faulty (Why did you call yourself “The Thinker” and choose an Ape for your Avatar?) I have restrained myself from making comment before as I felt that you were worthy of perseverance
You refrain yourself from comment because you do not have an intelligent reply. If you did then you would offer a reply rather than ridicule.JustAskin:
Quote WJ is totally lost
Now you've p-s-ed me off!
thinker
TT,
A blind person sudden receives sight and sees their first ray of sunlight and asks you “What is that?” What is your response:
“It is the Sun”?
or
“It is a ray of Light FROM the Sun”You will say the former (won't you?) – So the person then continues: “Ah, Now I have seen the Sun”
What do you say:
“Erm, Yeah, right on!”
or
“Erm, No, Not the Sun itself – A RAY of Light FROM the Sun”“Oh, so how can I see the Sun itself, then, from which this glorious Ray proceeded”
“Ah, If you look at the Sun you will become blinded again – noone can look at the Sun except through the Rays of the Sun!” (ok, there's a little bit of poetic licence but you get the drift : the Ray From the Sun is Not The Sun itself)Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 12 2010,12:52) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 13 2010,07:39) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 12 2010,12:24) JustAskin said: Quote Ihave been doing a little Web Surfing about the trinity and am amazed at the amount of information that 'attest' to the doctrine BUT never mention the Holy Spirit – In other words, they 'attest' to a 'Bi-une' God and only by happenstance is the Holy spirit mentioned with the usual quotes taken out of context.
JA,I am very glad to see you studying these things. The reason you see little mention of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus said that the Spirit would not speak of Himself but would “glorify Me.”
This is how we know that Pentecostals speak error because they glorify the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit Himself glorifies Jesus. This is how we know that those who deny Jesus is God are in error because they glorify the Father. But Jesus said, “He shall glorify Me.”
So it's not that trinitarians are binitarians. It's that they know that the Holy Spirit has a behind the scenes role. Jesus even said that the Spirit's ministry is unheard and unseen (John 3:8).
thinker
I am very glad to see you studying these things. The reason you see little mention of the Holy Spirit is becauseQuote Jesus said that the Spirit would not speak of Himself but would “glorify Me.” I can't find a verse where Yashuw'ah states the Ruach Hako'desh “glorifies him”?
Could you provide it?
Appreciate it.
Sorry for not providing it.John 16:12-14
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you
12 ἔτι πολλὰ ἔχω ὑμῖν λέγειν, ἀλλ’ οὐ δύνασθε βαστάζειν1 ἄρτι· 13 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει2 ὑμᾶς ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ’ ὅσα ἀκούει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ3 ὑμῖν. 14 ἐκεῖνος ἐμὲ δοξάσει, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ ἐμοῦ λήμψεται καὶ ἀναγγελεῖ3 ὑμῖν.
thinker
Thank youHi TT,
God has given all authority to his glorious servant Son.
His Spirit supports His appointed Lord.JustAskin said:
Quote A blind person sudden receives sight and sees their first ray of sunlight and asks you “What is that?” What is your response:
“It is the Sun”?
or
“It is a ray of Light FROM the Sun”JA,
If I go to the beach and lay out in the sun and come home burned my wife will say that I got too much of the sun when she is actually referring to the contact the rays made with my body.
The core of the sun is made of protons and electrons. Sun rays are protons and electrons which emanate FROM the sun. Ergo….
That which is FROM the flesh is flesh.
That which is FROM the spirit is spirit.
That which is FROM the sun is sun.
That which is FROM God is God.
Jesus is the emanation of God's glory (Heb. 1:1-2). Just as the sun's rays are the sun touching us so Jesus was God touching humanity. The sun's rays are indeed distinguished from the sun though not ontologically, but as emanations from the sun's core. So Jesus proceeded from the bosom of the Father. As sun's rays are ontologically one in substance with the core (protons and electrons), so Jesus is of one substance with the Father being FROM the Father's bosom. You need no degree in rocket science to comprehend these things.
Now answer my question: If the sun's rays are not sun then what are they?
When the rays burn my skin am I not TOUCHED by the sun?
thinker
Hi TT,
God was iN HIM reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor5.19]
You need to discern the glorious vessel from the treasure within him.TT, ” He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you”
If I write a book of my good works and someone reads it- does not the book Glorify me by its revelation – but is the book a person because it “Took of what is mine” and revealed it to another?It is not surprising, it seems, that the Holy Spirit gets so little attention in 'attesting' to a trinity God.
the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (The Father).You have a Spirit – I have a Spirit – We all have a Spirit – God has a Spirit – God alone is Holy hence he has a Holy Spirit – Jesus has a Spirit.
Where does Scripture say:
“God the Holy Spirit” – nowhereWhere does Scripture say:
“God the Son” – nowhereWhere does it does say
“God the Father” – many placesWhy is 'your God(s)' hiding himself in dark corners
Tell us LORD – are you ONE or are you Many [in one]:
“I, the LORD, am ONE”Oh, don't you mean “WE, the LORD, are ONE”
“No, I, even I, the ONE and Only GOD, am ONE alone – Beside(s) me There is no other God – Does that answer you?”“Yes, Thank you – can you let the other know this?”
“No, I have sent my WORD to reveal me to them – those who does not receive Him and what I have sent Him taught him to do in my name and say concerning me those I will not be received into my kingdom – You tell them!”
TT, I see that there is still a chance for you – you have answered well concerning the Sun and the rays and in another spirit I might be taken in, however, that which is from the Sun [protons and electrons, you say] can be found in other sources.
If you were 'Touched by the SUN” you would be vapourised in an instant – However, if you were touched by the RAYS from the sun (in limited amount) then…maybe not.I still contend that:
The Ray is FROM the Sun – Not the Sun itself
The Son is FROM God – Not God himselfTT, “When the rays burn my skin am I not TOUCHED by the sun?”
The answer is in your question: “You are not touched by the Sun but by the Rays of the sun”
“Touched by” is a term in this case properly expanded to “Touched by 'the Rays of or From'”Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
WJ, why do you always go to the old testament to get evidence of “Jesus is God” because it says there that God said something and now in the new Testament Jesus said the same thing.
The OT Hebrew scriptures are inspired also aren’t they? The God of the OT is the God of the NT isn’t he? God has not changed his mind has he?Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
God's plan has not changed – cannot change – God's words are true – could not be otherwise. The Agent through which that plan is enacted can change though (Saul was meant to be King for longer but he sinned and so God replaced him with David … many other examples)
Weak! David was never considered to be the agent through whom God would save all of mankind. David never gave his own life and blood to redeem a people for himself!Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
“One Lord (Capital 'L' rest lowercase) and One saviour”, yes I agree:
You are playing lip service to the scriptures again! For you say there is only One Lord and One Savour but in reality you believe there is more than one Lord and One Savour.The scriptures tell us that Jesus is our only Savour and in fact is the author of our salvation. It also tells us that Jesus is our “Only Lord and Master” a point which you have chosen to ignore. The word “ONLY” means only. The problem with anti-trinitarians is they do no hold true to the meaning of words!
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
1 Cor 8:6: “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.”
You quote this scripture but do you really try to comprehend what it means?Notice Paul says One God and “One Lord” for us. But if you use this verse to insist that the Father alone is God then you should be consist and say that Jesus alone is Lord!
But would you say that the Father is not Lord? If you do and you believe the Father and Jesus are two seperate beings then it means that you have more than One Lord. Yet the Shema contradicts that!
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one (Echad) LORD: Deut 6:4
Do you think Paul knew this scripture? Of course he did, for it was Paul that wrote to Timothy and said…
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, “the King of kings, and Lord of lords”; 1 Tim 6:15
And then the Apostle John confirms who he is when he writes…
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for “he is Lord of lords, and King of kings”: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev 17:14
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS”. Rev 19:16
You never addressed the scriptures in my post to you!
Little wonder that John wrote of Jesus the Word that was with God “and was God in John 1:1, 18, eh?
You want to play with the word “Lord” or “LORD” just like you do with the word “God” but scriptures show that Jesus is both “Lord and God”. Isa 9:6, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Heb 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Tit 2:13, 14, Jude 1:4, 5 and Rev 1:8, and Math 1:23 just for starters.
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
John 13:13: “You call Me Teacher (Or Master) and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.”
Yet his followers did not take the same view of Jesus as you. For your view of him means that Jesus was contradicting himself by teaching that you can only serve “One Master” while at the same time teaching them to “Love the Lord your God and “him only shalt thou serve”. Luke 4:8Words to the Arians do not have any meaning for words like “Only” “One” “Alone” “by myself” “None other” do not mean what they say. For the terms “Only God” “One God” “One Lord” ” One Savour” “Only Master” apply to both the Father and the Son. But the Trinitarian view sees that from Genesis Chapter One that God is “One” yet God is “Plural”. Pluralty of oneness is found in the molecular structure of the Universe which reveals the Glory of God!
Again the Shema is an example of the plurality of God!
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one (Echad) LORD: Deut 6:4
Yachid vs. Echad The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!” There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God (“yachid” or “bad”).
Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, “echad” which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 “the two shall become one [echad] flesh” it is the same word for “one” that was used in Deut 6:4.
This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God. Source
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
but never the less – the Amen is in the father (God).
Really? No not only the Father!Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen. Rom 9:5
”For all the promises of God in him (Jesus) are yea, AND IN HIM (JESUS) AMEN”, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Cor 1:20
And the Lord (Jesus) shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: “to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen”. 2 Tim 4:18
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; “These things saith the Amen”, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:14
Tell me why you guys never want to give Jesus any Glory or Honor or credit for doing anything? Why do you seek to keep him a servant to the Father when in fact he is no longer a servant but is sitting in the throne of God ruling as God?
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27)
Wnen an enterprising Property Developer (PD) Restoring a property he may well appoint a 'Master Builder' (MB) over the Restoration of that property.Who is it that is Restoring that property – The PD or the MB?
Certainly, the PD says “I am Restoring the property” but, equally, the MB could say the same. Does this make the PD and the MB the same person?
Every unblemished brick or stone from the crumbling property is Saved and re-used by the MB.
To whose glory is the property being restored? Cetainly, the MB deserves praise, honor and glory for his part but the greater Praise, Honor, Glory ** goes to the PD whose original plan it was – and so it is with God.
(**I have left out 'Worship' here as it would not look good against the humanistic backdrop of this analogy) Is this analogy hard to understand – is it a valid analogy?
Your analogy is at best weak and here is why…There is no evidence in the scriptures where “Greater” praise goes to the Father.
Same Praise, Honor, Glory!
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. IN A LOUD VOICE THEY SANG: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, SINGING: “TO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE AND TO THE LAMB be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped”. Rev 5:11-14
They sang the same song to both the Father and Jesus!
Jesus said…
that all may honor the Son “JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER”. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:23Trinitarians seek to give Jesus the highest place of honor even with the same honor we give the Father!
It seems that anti-trinitarians seek to give him less honor than the Father even though Jesus said he should receive the same Honor!WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,17:06) TT, “When the rays burn my skin am I not TOUCHED by the sun?”
The answer is in your question: “You are not touched by the Sun but by the Rays of the sun”
“Touched by” is a term in this case properly expanded to “Touched by 'the Rays of or From'”Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,17:06) The answer is in your question: “You are not touched by the Sun but by the Rays of the sun”
No the answer is you are touched by both the Sun and its Rays for they are One!Without the rays there is no touching the Sun!
Without Jesus there is no touching or knowing God!
If you guys really give thought to what that really means in the Hebrew culture then you would see that for a man to make the claims Jesus did would mean he is either a lunatic or he is making himself equal to God and commiting blashemy and in fact that is the very reason they set out to stone him and kill him!
Jesus puts himself between the Hebrew God and Man and claims that he has everything that God has and that men are to come to him!
This is the side of the coin that the anti-trinitarians turn their shoulder at and choose only to dwell on the servant Jesus who left his place of glory and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
He calls men to follow him and requires that they leave all and even lose there natural lives for his sake. No one could require that kind of devotion but God himself!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to JustAskin:
Quote This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.
WJ,
Good point and thanks for the source. I checked it out. let the anti-trinitarians repent!thinker
To all
Jesus as it says in Scriptures had God in Him 2Cor 5.
Also He(God) made Him(Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf. 2Cor 5 also.This was God's plan from the beginning, also you can take this verse two ways and both are correct even though WJ,and Thinker and other Trinitarians will say it is not.
This verse says that God made it possible for Jesus to be sin on our behalf but it also says that God made Jesus for this very reason, to be and take on our sins.Also can you explain to me how I should take 1Cor15:24-28
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
To me this says that right now and at the end Jesus will be like us Worshiping the Father who is God because he is and will be subjected to the one who gave him everything that means that Without the Father Jesus has NOTHING!!!ED J said to WJ:
Quote Hi WJ, Your words prove what I have said to be correct! You preach a God that is above and out of reach.
TO WJ:It seems this guy doesn't know anything about trinitarianism or aything else. For trinitarianism teaches that God CAME DOWN in human form and was TOUCHED by men (John 1: 1 John 1).
It is anti-trinitarianism that makes god untouchable.
ED J:
Quote The messages from the whore of Rev.17:1-9 is False Doctrines!
Yak yak yakthinker
WJ, Concerning the PD, I said that I excluded “Worship” as I didn't want to claim that a human PD should be worshipped – the Worship is the greater “Praise” is what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Quote Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 12 2010,13:27) God's plan has not changed – cannot change – God's words are true – could not be otherwise. The Agent through which that plan is enacted can change though (Saul was meant to be King for longer but he sinned and so God replaced him with David … many other examples)
Weak! David was never considered to be the agent through whom God would save all of mankind. David never gave his own life and blood to redeem a people for himself!
I said that saul was meant to be [human] King [Of Isreal] and David after him – how could you think I meant otherwise.
I said that God's plan does not change – that Israel would have a [human] King. I didn't think this would be mis-understood – then again …Did anyone else misunderstand – was my wording badly written?
uoflfan, You last post has been a revelation to me, thank you through our Lord Jesus Christ, our Reigning King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
I had been pondering on some of the seeming anomalies in Revelation and couldn't see it (God reveals himself to whom he wishes and when he wishes…!)
I will post more on this later as I am at work.
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