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Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 06 2009,02:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,23:47) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 05 2009,19:31) The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4 Our English Bible gradually developed over the last six hundred years.
John Wycliffe is credited with the first English translation of the New Testament which was completed about 1380 C.E.
Until that time the Word of Yahweh was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people.
The Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome about 400 C.E. was the standard Bible used in the Catholic Church.
Wycliffe's translation is based upon the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek.
It is therefore a “version of a version.”
In Wycliffe's version, John 1:3-4 use the word “him” in reference to the “Word” of verse 1 and is a translation of the Latin “ipsum” and “ipso” (he, she, or it).
The next great English translator was William Tyndale.
He was an excellent Greek scholar who had access to the Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have.
The hand of the Almighty was upon Tyndale as He used him to give us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek.
His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534.
Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and the life was the light of men.”
As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” “It” is a translation of the Greek “autou” meaning he, she, or it.
What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the “logos” or “word” of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe.
Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535.
It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used “him” in John 1:3-4.
In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew,” published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible.
He uses “it” in John 1:3-4.
The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible.
The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale.
For some reason Coverdale decided “it” was more correct than “him” which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, “it” instead of “him.”.
The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church.
Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden.
This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva.
The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph.
This Bible became the “household Bible of the English-speaking nations.”
It held that position for about 75 years.
It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England.
Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, “it” instead of “him.”
Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading.
Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible.
It was published in 1568.
It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people.
It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using “it,” not “him.”
In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament.
It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made.
It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin.
They chose to render John 1:3-4 using “him” as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate.
From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used “him” instead of “it” in their translation of John 1:3-4.
As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation;
“All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and the life was the light of men.”
The “logos” (Word) of John 1:1 means “the spoken word” or “something said (including the thought).”
In that sense the word is an “it,” not a person but a thing.
In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence.
This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.”
Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yahshua into existence; “And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh” (Jn.1:14).
Yahshua did not become the “Word of [Yahweh]” until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.
De 32:39 says, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Yahweh the Father is speaking here.
He is saying there is no other “elohim” or no other God with Him.
John 1:1 says, ” . . .and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.”
If the “Word” is the Son and the Son was WITH God and was God, how does that harmonize with the above verse?
In De 32:39, since Yahweh was speaking, then there was no other God with Him, not even the Son.
To say the “logos” of John 1:1 is a reference to Messiah is to read him into the text.
Roman Catholic scholars had to do this in order to support their unscriptural trinity doctrine.
If Messiah did not pre-exist, the trinity doctrine would collapse, it being based upon the belief that all three members of the “godhead” were co-eternal.
Since Messiah only pre-existed in Yahweh's plan of salvation and not literally, the trinity doctrine is without foundation.
Hi Con,
Interesting last couple of posts. One thing that I don't know if you are aware of is regarding the active voice of Greek verbs. If the verb “was” is written in the active voice then the subject is doing the action which is different than verbs written in the passive voice where the subject receives the action. In John 1:1, the verb “was” is written in the active voice. Therefore the subject “the word” was actively with God, not passively with God as I suspect, would be His own plan or thought or word. That is how I understand it anyway. You might want
to check into that. It happens many times to confirm that the Son wasn't just a plan in the beginning. Look at these verses: (I have highlighted in bold the verbs that are in the active voice)John 17:5
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASU
(See here that Jesus actively had glory, not passively)Heb 1:10
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU
(This says that the Son actively laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, not passively.)So you might want to look into the active voice of Greek verbs if you haven't already.
Blessings,
Kathi
Funny, I was just getting to that in the next post I put up. Have you done any religious graduate work? You have a good grasp on the Greek. My compliments to you.
Hi Con,
No I haven't done any religious graduate work. I took a few semesters of Greek at a special class at church. I look forward to your next post in these regards.Thanks for the compliment…it made me smile!
God bless,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,00:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
bodhitharta, great point! I liked your point, it actually gives me something to ponder now, dont know if I wanna hug ya or slap you. I will let you know later.
I knew the whistle of each of the river boats on the Tennessee. William Christopher Handy
I placed a jar inTennessee, And round it was, upon a hill. It made the slovenly wilderness Surround that hill. Stevens, Wallace
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 27 2009,03:53) To All…….The Trinity (IS) a blasphemy against the Spirit. As any speaking against truth is. There is only (ONE) truth about anything and whoever speaks against that truth is blaspheming against the truth of truth. We all have done and do at times speak against the truth and it is (NOT) forgiven us , we simple have to change, because the truth is not going to change is it. Blasphemy does not equate to eternal damnation as many believe, Jesus was simple saying while you speak against the truth, you are (not forgiven) because it (CAN NOT BE FORGIVEN YOU) why because you are (in a state of going against truth) So it can't be forgiven you now or in the future either, you must change and conform to what is true, or GOD will continually resist you, Truth is truth you must except it and change. When one blasphemes Jesus or his neighbor , it can be forgiven Him . But going against the truth is different because the truth never change it can't change , you have to change it's not going to. The Pharisee were blaspheming against the truth when they accused Jesus of being the prince of the devils and healing by that power, that was a blasphemy against the spirit. Because it was the spirit that performed those miracles not Jesus. Some think that because Jesus said it will not be forgiven Him is the same as saying the person is eternal destroyed , but Jesus never said that, blasphemy against the truth itself is not forgiven you or any one else for that matter, you simply have to change because it is not going to change because it can't change, truth is truth it never changes. Now or in the future. IMO gene
Gene: Wow, thank you for that little truth I just saw as the light came on about blasphemy against the Spirit. Absolutely the truth of God stands unchanged while beliefs come and go.If one hangs onto a belief that is contrary to the Truth is can't be forgiven it must conform. Thank you for that, I had not understood what that meant.
Yet while I have your attention, for the life of me I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the word Trinity is so bad. I see God, Jesus, and the Spirit as ONE! To say they are not three in one seems needless to argue. Like fire is: flame,heat and light, but there is not three aspects of ONE. If the word trinity riles up feathers in so many I believe it becomes a doctrinal issue. God is not only three in ONE. God is billions in ONE. Aspects of God, pieces of source, drops from the ocean of life. I really don't use the word trinity very often but on this site it is really a touchy subject.IMO! God Bless you, TKQuote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,19:17) ““““““ Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glory, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorious, from L. gloriously “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Kathi and Bo! Did you not believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
What glory was that He had with te Father before the world was?
John 17:5 Jesus said:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was.” I don't think that Moses had the same glory that Jesus had. Jesus was a Spirit being before Moses was even born. Where does it say that Moses had the same glory?
He is the firstborn over all creation. So just because it said had and not share, now He did not have that glory with the Father? But Jesus said that He did.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
Also the Kingdom that Christ will have, He will have for a Thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to His Father.
1Corinth. 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him,(Jesus) then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all. I don't' believe in the Quran……..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 06 2009,19:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,00:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
bodhitharta, great point! I liked your point, it actually gives me something to ponder now, dont know if I wanna hug ya or slap you. I will let you know later.
God willing, it will be the hugQuote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 06 2009,21:40) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 27 2009,03:53) To All…….The Trinity (IS) a blasphemy against the Spirit. As any speaking against truth is. There is only (ONE) truth about anything and whoever speaks against that truth is blaspheming against the truth of truth. We all have done and do at times speak against the truth and it is (NOT) forgiven us , we simple have to change, because the truth is not going to change is it. Blasphemy does not equate to eternal damnation as many believe, Jesus was simple saying while you speak against the truth, you are (not forgiven) because it (CAN NOT BE FORGIVEN YOU) why because you are (in a state of going against truth) So it can't be forgiven you now or in the future either, you must change and conform to what is true, or GOD will continually resist you, Truth is truth you must except it and change. When one blasphemes Jesus or his neighbor , it can be forgiven Him . But going against the truth is different because the truth never change it can't change , you have to change it's not going to. The Pharisee were blaspheming against the truth when they accused Jesus of being the prince of the devils and healing by that power, that was a blasphemy against the spirit. Because it was the spirit that performed those miracles not Jesus. Some think that because Jesus said it will not be forgiven Him is the same as saying the person is eternal destroyed , but Jesus never said that, blasphemy against the truth itself is not forgiven you or any one else for that matter, you simply have to change because it is not going to change because it can't change, truth is truth it never changes. Now or in the future. IMO gene
Gene: Wow, thank you for that little truth I just saw as the light came on about blasphemy against the Spirit. Absolutely the truth of God stands unchanged while beliefs come and go.If one hangs onto a belief that is contrary to the Truth is can't be forgiven it must conform. Thank you for that, I had not understood what that meant.
Yet while I have your attention, for the life of me I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the word Trinity is so bad. I see God, Jesus, and the Spirit as ONE! To say they are not three in one seems needless to argue. Like fire is: flame,heat and light, but there is not three aspects of ONE. If the word trinity riles up feathers in so many I believe it becomes a doctrinal issue. God is not only three in ONE. God is billions in ONE. Aspects of God, pieces of source, drops from the ocean of life. I really don't use the word trinity very often but on this site it is really a touchy subject.IMO! God Bless you, TK
God is not His creations and that is the issue.To say trinity goes against the Sovereign Nature of God, He is ONE LORD GOD, If He is ONE LORD that is GOD any other lord cannot be God. Lord Jesus is Christ, he was Chosen by God, he was anointed by God and he was given all that he has and his very being from God.
We all should be one with God but we are not The One God
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,07:31) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 06 2009,21:40) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 27 2009,03:53) To All…….The Trinity (IS) a blasphemy against the Spirit. As any speaking against truth is. There is only (ONE) truth about anything and whoever speaks against that truth is blaspheming against the truth of truth. We all have done and do at times speak against the truth and it is (NOT) forgiven us , we simple have to change, because the truth is not going to change is it. Blasphemy does not equate to eternal damnation as many believe, Jesus was simple saying while you speak against the truth, you are (not forgiven) because it (CAN NOT BE FORGIVEN YOU) why because you are (in a state of going against truth) So it can't be forgiven you now or in the future either, you must change and conform to what is true, or GOD will continually resist you, Truth is truth you must except it and change. When one blasphemes Jesus or his neighbor , it can be forgiven Him . But going against the truth is different because the truth never change it can't change , you have to change it's not going to. The Pharisee were blaspheming against the truth when they accused Jesus of being the prince of the devils and healing by that power, that was a blasphemy against the spirit. Because it was the spirit that performed those miracles not Jesus. Some think that because Jesus said it will not be forgiven Him is the same as saying the person is eternal destroyed , but Jesus never said that, blasphemy against the truth itself is not forgiven you or any one else for that matter, you simply have to change because it is not going to change because it can't change, truth is truth it never changes. Now or in the future. IMO gene
Gene: Wow, thank you for that little truth I just saw as the light came on about blasphemy against the Spirit. Absolutely the truth of God stands unchanged while beliefs come and go.If one hangs onto a belief that is contrary to the Truth is can't be forgiven it must conform. Thank you for that, I had not understood what that meant.
Yet while I have your attention, for the life of me I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the word Trinity is so bad. I see God, Jesus, and the Spirit as ONE! To say they are not three in one seems needless to argue. Like fire is: flame,heat and light, but there is not three aspects of ONE. If the word trinity riles up feathers in so many I believe it becomes a doctrinal issue. God is not only three in ONE. God is billions in ONE. Aspects of God, pieces of source, drops from the ocean of life. I really don't use the word trinity very often but on this site it is really a touchy subject.IMO! God Bless you, TK
God is not His creations and that is the issue.To say trinity goes against the Sovereign Nature of God, He is ONE LORD GOD, If He is ONE LORD that is GOD any other lord cannot be God. Lord Jesus is Christ, he was Chosen by God, he was anointed by God and he was given all that he has and his very being from God.
We all should be one with God but we are not The One God
What Gene wrote about the truth, is not so. Why, because we all think we have Gods Truth and others have another truth. So which is the truth? Not until Christ returns can we say that now only the truth will be taught. We all have some truths, but not all of the truths. And there is the problem what Gene writes. What is the Unpardonable sin. Our Minister in the W.W.Church of God told us, the Sin not repented of, is. When we sin, and do not repent of that sin, and know it. I can see that it would be the Unpardonable sin. What do you think, anybody. Just take the-trinity, Some think it is the truth and some don't. So are you then condemning whoever believes different then you do? See what I mean?
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,06:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,19:17) ““““““ Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glory, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorious, from L. gloriously “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Kathi and Bo! Did you not believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
What glory was that He had with te Father before the world was?
John 17:5 Jesus said:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was.” I don't think that Moses had the same glory that Jesus had. Jesus was a Spirit being before Moses was even born. Where does it say that Moses had the same glory?
He is the firstborn over all creation. So just because it said had and not share, now He did not have that glory with the Father? But Jesus said that He did.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
Also the Kingdom that Christ will have, He will have for a Thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to His Father.
1Corinth. 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him,(Jesus) then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all. I don't' believe in the Quran……..
Peace and Love Irene
A knowledge of the background to the New Testament reveals that Jews believed that Moses “preexisted” in the counsels of God, but not actually as a conscious person:“For this is what the Lord of the world has decreed: He created the world on behalf of his people, but he did not make this purpose of creation known from the beginning of the world so that the nations might be found guilty… But He did design and devise me [Moses], who was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant” (Testament of Moses, 1:13, 14).
If Moses was decreed in the Plan of God, it makes perfect sense that the Messiah himself was the purpose for which God created everything. Out of respect for God’s revealed Plan and in honor of the human Savior, we should seek to understand his identity in the context of his own Hebrew setting.
A fine statement of the Jewish understanding of “preexistence” is given by the Norwegian scholar, Mowinckel, in his famous He Who Cometh:
“That any expression or vehicle of God’s will for the world, His saving counsel and purpose, was present in His mind, or His ‘Word,’ from the beginning is a natural way of saying that it is not fortuitous, but the due unfolding and expression of God’s own being [cp. John: “the Word was with God and was God”] This attribution of pre-existence indicates religious importance of the highest order. Rabbinic theology speaks of the Law, of God’s throne of glory, of Israel and of other important objects of faith, as things which had been created by God, and were already present with Him, before the creation of the world. The same is also true of the Messiah. It is said that his name was present with God in heaven beforehand, that it was created before the world, and that it is eternal.
But the reference here is not to genuine pre-existence in the strict and literal sense. This is clear from the fact that Israel is included among these pre-existent entities. This does not mean that either the nation Israel or its ancestor existed long ago in heaven, but that the community Israel, the people of God, had been from all eternity in the mind of God, as a factor in His purpose…. This is true of references to the pre-existence of the Messiah. It is his ‘name,’ not the Messiah himself, that is said to have been present with God before creation. In Pesikta Rabbati 152b is said that ‘from the beginning of the creation of the world the King Messiah was born, for he came up in the thought of God before the world was created.’ This means that from all eternity it was the will of God that the Messiah should come into existence, and should do his work in the world to fulfill God’s eternal saving purpose.”
The proposition introduced by Gentile, philosophically-minded “Church Fathers” that Jesus was either a second “member” of the Godhead (orthodoxy) or a created angel (Jehovah’s Witnesses) launched the whole vexed problem of the nature of Christ in relation to the Godhead and put under a fog the true Messiahship of Jesus and his Messianic Gospel about the Kingdom. Jesus of Nazareth is what the Word of John 1:1 became. He is the unique expression, as a human being, of the Wisdom of God. It was the Wisdom of God which existed from the beginning, and that Wisdom became a person at the conception of Jesus. This explanation leaves in tact the great cardinal doctrine that the One God is the Father and that Jesus is the Lord Messiah, not the Lord God. It was the early Greek Church Fathers who confused the issue of Jewish/Christian monotheism by introducing the idea of a “numerically second God.”
It is most significant that Paul often speaks of the gospel as having been hidden in the counsels of God from “ages past.” He also says that the Son of God “came into existence” from a women and from the seed of David. It is unimaginable that Paul could have believed in the preexistence of the Son. It would be untrue to say that the Son came into existence at his birth, if in fact he had always existed. It is far more reasonable to suppose that Paul agreed with Peter that the Messiah was hidden in the divine counsels and then revealed in the fullness of time.
Finally, it is most unreasonable to claim that “Wisdom” in Proverbs (i.e., “Lady Wisdom”) was in fact Jesus, the Son, preexisting. It should not be difficult to discern that “Wisdom” here is a personification of a divine quality, not a person. The proof of this is found not only in all major commentaries but very clearly in the text itself. “I, Wisdom, dwell with Prudence….”
If Wisdom is really a (male) Son of God, then who is Prudence?
Preexisting purposes and personifications are all part of the literature of Judaism. A non-human Messiah is not. A Messiah who is not a human being approximates much more closely to the pagan idea of preexisting souls and Gnostic “aions.” It was that early invasion of paganism which unfortunately began to corrupt the faith, just as Peter and Paul warned.
That intrusion of paganism resulted in some very strange language about Jesus. His “pre-human existence” signals the fact that he is really not a human being. He has existed as an angel before being born. This is close to the idea of “the gods coming down in the likeness of men.” Such a Jesus sounds like a pagan savior figure. There were many such cosmic saviors in the Graeco-Roman world. But there was only one Messiah, whose identity was given long in advance of his birth. He was foreknown (I Pet. 1:20) and would arise from the House of Israel as an Israelite of the tribe of Judah (Deut. 18:15-18). That important text in Deuteronomy actually states that the promised agent of God would not be the Lord God, but His spokesman (Deut. 18:16, 17). Christians should be careful to claim allegiance to that Savior. To worship a Savior with wrong ideas about him runs the risk of worshipping another Savior. The creed of Jesus is the right creed for Christians (Mark 12:28ff.). As so many scholars know, that creed is not a Trinitarian creed. The One God of Israel and of Jesus was and is the Father (John 17:3; John 5:44; I Tim. 2:5; I Cor. 8:4-6), “the One and only God” (John 5:44), “the only true God” (John 17:3).
Monotheism
Neither Paul or any writer of the Bible ever stated that “there is One God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” No example out of thousands of occurrences of Jahweh (OT) and God (NT) can be shown to mean “God in three Persons.” The Triune God is foreign to the Bible. The words of Paul need careful consideration: “There is no God but one…To us there is One God, the Father” (I Cor. 8:4, 6) There is also one Lord Messiah, Jesus (I Cor. 8:6), but He is the Lord Christ (Luke 2:11; Ps. 110:1), the Son of the One God, His Father.
The two major players in the Bible are described in a precious divine oracle quoted in the NT more than any other verse from the Hebrew Bible: Ps. 110:1. There the One God “Yahweh” speaks to David’s Lord, who is addressed as Adoni (“my Lord”). Adoni in its 167 occurrences never means the One God. It refers always to a human (or occasionally) angelic superior, other than God. Jesus is the Lord of David of whom Ps. 110:1 speaks. He was appointed Lord and Messiah — appointed by God, his Father (Acts 2:34-36).
Out of respect and honor for Jesus the Messiah, Christians should adopt his Jewish creed in Mark 12:28ff.: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.” God is one Lord. Jesus is another Lord. That makes two Lords, but the creed knows of only one Lord who is God Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:28ff.). That is the creed of Jesus and therefore the original Christian creed. May we all joyfully embrace that creed and align ourselves with the Jesus of history
Quote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,07:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,07:31) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 06 2009,21:40) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 27 2009,03:53) To All…….The Trinity (IS) a blasphemy against the Spirit. As any speaking against truth is. There is only (ONE) truth about anything and whoever speaks against that truth is blaspheming against the truth of truth. We all have done and do at times speak against the truth and it is (NOT) forgiven us , we simple have to change, because the truth is not going to change is it. Blasphemy does not equate to eternal damnation as many believe, Jesus was simple saying while you speak against the truth, you are (not forgiven) because it (CAN NOT BE FORGIVEN YOU) why because you are (in a state of going against truth) So it can't be forgiven you now or in the future either, you must change and conform to what is true, or GOD will continually resist you, Truth is truth you must except it and change. When one blasphemes Jesus or his neighbor , it can be forgiven Him . But going against the truth is different because the truth never change it can't change , you have to change it's not going to. The Pharisee were blaspheming against the truth when they accused Jesus of being the prince of the devils and healing by that power, that was a blasphemy against the spirit. Because it was the spirit that performed those miracles not Jesus. Some think that because Jesus said it will not be forgiven Him is the same as saying the person is eternal destroyed , but Jesus never said that, blasphemy against the truth itself is not forgiven you or any one else for that matter, you simply have to change because it is not going to change because it can't change, truth is truth it never changes. Now or in the future. IMO gene
Gene: Wow, thank you for that little truth I just saw as the light came on about blasphemy against the Spirit. Absolutely the truth of God stands unchanged while beliefs come and go.If one hangs onto a belief that is contrary to the Truth is can't be forgiven it must conform. Thank you for that, I had not understood what that meant.
Yet while I have your attention, for the life of me I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the word Trinity is so bad. I see God, Jesus, and the Spirit as ONE! To say they are not three in one seems needless to argue. Like fire is: flame,heat and light, but there is not three aspects of ONE. If the word trinity riles up feathers in so many I believe it becomes a doctrinal issue. God is not only three in ONE. God is billions in ONE. Aspects of God, pieces of source, drops from the ocean of life. I really don't use the word trinity very often but on this site it is really a touchy subject.IMO! God Bless you, TK
God is not His creations and that is the issue.To say trinity goes against the Sovereign Nature of God, He is ONE LORD GOD, If He is ONE LORD that is GOD any other lord cannot be God. Lord Jesus is Christ, he was Chosen by God, he was anointed by God and he was given all that he has and his very being from God.
We all should be one with God but we are not The One God
What Gene wrote about the truth, is not so. Why, because we all think we have Gods Truth and others have another truth. So which is the truth? Not until Christ returns can we say that now only the truth will be taught. We all have some truths, but not all of the truths. And there is the problem what Gene writes. What is the Unpardonable sin. Our Minister in the W.W.Church of God told us, the Sin not repented of, is. When we sin, and do not repent of that sin, and know it. I can see that it would be the Unpardonable sin. What do you think, anybody. Just take the-trinity, Some think it is the truth and some don't. So are you then condemning whoever believes different then you do? See what I mean?
Peace and Love Irene
You are correct in that the scriptures call blasphemy against ones God unforgiveable so this would mean someone slandering the one they believe is God is in danger of hell fire for they shall carry their own iniquity.Leviticus 24 (King James Version)
15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
In otherwords disbelief.
(8) Let not the unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #178)(17) They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #151)(33) If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): “Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #50)(48) “And further (thus): 'set thy face towards religion with true piety, and never in any wise be of the unbelievers;
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #105)Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,03:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Bo,
Do you think God can only have “one” glory? It is true that He does have a specific glory that He does not share with any other but couldn't He have more than one type of glory? Couldn't Jesus have more than one type of glory? What do you think?Kathi
From the Ancient Hebrew Research Center —
n Exodus 16:7 we read “and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD” (RSV). What is the “glory” of YHWH? First we must recognize that the “glory” is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word “glory” is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of God is paralleled with his shield and in Job 29:20 Job's kavod is paralleled with his bow. In Psalm 24:8 we read “who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle.” The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. This meaning of “armament” fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod which is “heavy” as armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will “see” the “armament” of YHWH, who is the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians.Martian………..Good post, i like you research skills. I believe the glory of God is His strengths also. He also said He gives (his) Glory to (NO) man.
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,16:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,03:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Bo,
Do you think God can only have “one” glory? It is true that He does have a specific glory that He does not share with any other but couldn't He have more than one type of glory? Couldn't Jesus have more than one type of glory? What do you think?Kathi
The Glory of God is His Splendour and there is nothing like it. He can bestow glory on whomever he likes. Glory was on the face of Moses so much so that the people had to turn away, this had never happened even to Jesus.Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,04:46) Martian………..Good post, i like you research skills. I believe the glory of God is His strengths also. He also said He gives (his) Glory to (NO) man. peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Thanks Gene. Nice to hear from you again.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,06:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,16:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,03:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Bo,
Do you think God can only have “one” glory? It is true that He does have a specific glory that He does not share with any other but couldn't He have more than one type of glory? Couldn't Jesus have more than one type of glory? What do you think?Kathi
The Glory of God is His Splendour and there is nothing like it. He can bestow glory on whomever he likes. Glory was on the face of Moses so much so that the people had to turn away, this had never happened even to Jesus.
Exactly right. God can shed “A” glory on any man. This includes the man Christ. God had glory set aside especially for his only begotten that would be given him upon the completion of his work o
n Earth. This does not prove a preexistent Christ.Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,09:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,06:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,16:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 06 2009,03:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2009,18:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo,
The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ. Christ is much more than a prophet.Rev 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
NASU
Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns.In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God.
Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.
Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”Just curious,
Kathi
Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.Etymology
glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.
Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.Kathi
share glory? The bible does not say that?It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”
Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).Kathi
It can't mean shared according to the scripturesI am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 42:7-9so Jesus has to be talking about something different:
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25God gives glory to whom he pleases:
O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Daniel 5:17-19God has a Glory that was not Given and further let it be made clear what Glory is:
It is honour and Praise and we know that God is called THE MOST HIGH and therefore His Glory is unmatched.
(3) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255)(6) Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)
Bo,
Do you think God can only have “one” glory? It is true that He does have a specific glory that He does not share with any other but couldn't He have more than one type of glory? Couldn't Jesus have more than one type of glory? What do you think?Kathi
The Glory of God is His Splendour and there is nothing like it. He can bestow glory on whomever he likes. Glory was on the face of Moses so much so that the people had to turn away, this had never happened even to Jesus.
Exa
ctly right. God can shed “A” glory on any man. This includes the man Christ. God had glory set aside especially for his only begotten that would be given him upon the completion of his work on Earth. This does not prove a preexistent Christ.
Martin maybe not that Scripture, but other Scriptures prove that He was in Heaven with His Father before.
Col.1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth……In verse 18 He was also the firstborn of the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. He was first in all, that is what preeminence means.
Rev. 3:14…. “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
No matter what you believe about
John 17:5″And now O Father glorify Me together with the glory I had before the World was.”
If Christ can make a statement like that, don't you think it would be so? Whether it was the Fathers glory or not. He was there before the world was. That is the most important essence of that verse. I believe the glory He is talking about is that He was a Spirit being with the Father.
I know that Proverbs 8 most think it is wisdom speaking, I don't. It does not make sense that God did not have wisdom already and it had to be born first, I believe it is talking about Jesus.
Proverb 8:22-25
” The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old
.
verse 23
I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning before there was ever an earth.So you who think it is wisdom, “BEFORE THERE WAS EVER AN EARTH.
What does that have to do with wisdom, nothing.verse 24
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.verse 25 Before the mountains were settled ,
Before the hills, I was brought forth.
Peace and Love Irene
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