The Trinity Doctrine

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,10:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,17:29) Hi LU, We can be given the nature of God as the Spirit brings that fruit[Gal5] Jesus was anointed with the Holy spirit and power[Acts 10] But you think Jesus was always anointed in the Spirit of God and the Jordan was just for show? Only after that[lk4.1] is he said to be FULL OF the Spirit. Hi Nick, I do not think that Jesus was always anointed to begin His ministry that He had during His last three and a half years before crucifixion.  That happened at the Jordan.  I also do not think that He was ever separated from the Father as we are for it is sin that separates and Jesus was without sin. Also we can partake of the nature of God but we didn't always have it…the Son did. You ask,”Do you think that Jesus did the works in His own power?”  My answer…no.  When Jesus took on flesh He had as much power as you did when you were born.  All power was given to Him. LU

Then stop calling Jesus “God” God is not given Power and Authority.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 04 2009,03:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.

and they sing the song of Moses, servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,
Revelation 15:2-4

Why is Moses mentioned here first?

[Lightenup]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being.

Hi Rokkaman,
Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing? They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten. The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”

Just curious,
Kathi

[georg]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 26 2009,17:21)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:18) Mandy, Jesus wouldn't have been a Jew had it not been for Mary…she gets credit for that also and for carrying Him in her womb and later on her hip, feeding Him, training Him in many ways, giving Him direction and for nurturing Him, for being their for Him when He was at His weakest, etc.  A surrogate doesn't do all that, only a biological mother. Love, Kathi Hi Kathi, Do you realize what you are really saying when you credit Mary with being Jesus' biological mother?   Most are not willing to go there……  See the Conception thread. Love, Mandy

Mandy! I credit Maria for being a Mother and she was a Virgin
also. She was a Holy Woman, a God Fearing Woman. That accounts to alot in my book. Coming out of the Catholic Church I wrongly admired Maria and prayed to Her, but the admiration I still have for Her. Just because She was Jesus's
Mother.
Peace and Love Irene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03)

Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi

Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face.

Etymology

glory
c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.

[NickHassan]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,06:54)

Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 04 2009,03:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. and they sing the song of Moses, servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints, Revelation 15:2-4 Why is Moses mentioned here first?

Hi BD,
Is Moses spoken of or his SONG?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 05 2009,08:32)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,06:54) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 04 2009,03:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. and they sing the song of Moses, servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints, Revelation 15:2-4 Why is Moses mentioned here first? Hi BD, Is Moses spoken of or his SONG?

What about the song of the lamb?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
What about it?

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821.

Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation.

Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821. Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation. Kathi

share glory? The bible does not say that?

It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”

[Constitutionalist]

Mt.20:23 – Father And Son – two persons.

Jn.3:16 – For Yahweh so loved the world that He gave, not Himself, but His Son.

Jn.3:17 – Yahweh sent His Son into the world. Did Yahweh send Himself?

Jn.5:37 – You have not heard or seen the Father (but they had seen and heard the Son) two different persons.

Jn.5:37 – There are TWO witnesses – (1) the Father and (2) the Son (two persons).

Jn.5:43 – Yahshua came in the Father's name, but they did not receive him.

Jn.8:18 – There are TWO witnesses; the Father and the Son (two persons).

Jn.8:19 – You know neither me nor my Father (two persons).

Jn.10:29 – The Father is greater than all (others).

Jn.12:28 – Yahshua said, “Father, glorify thy Name.” A voice answered. Was it Yahshua answering himself?

Jn.14:1 – You believe in Yahweh, believe ALSO in me (two persons).

Jn.14:25 – My words are not mine, but His who sent me (two persons: sender/sent).

Jn.14:28 – My FATHER is greater than I – truly (two persons; Father & Son).

Jn.15:1 – I am the vine. My FATHER is the vine dresser; two different parties.

Jn.15:9 – The Father loved me, so I haved loved you (three parties; Father, Son & disciples).

Jn.15:10 – If you love me you will keep my commandments just as I have kept my Father's commandments.

Jn.15:24 – They hated BOTH me AND my Father (two persons).

Jn.16:3 – You have not known the Father nor me (two parties; Father & Son).

Jn.16:28 – I came down from the Father and go to the Father. Did Yahshua go to himself?

Jn.16:32 – I am not alone, for the Father is with me (two persons).

Jn.17:1 – Yahshua prayed to the Father. Did he pray to himself?

Jn.17:3 – ETERNAL LIFE is knowing you, the ONLY TRUE EL, AND Yahshua Messiah whom you sent. Do we want eternal life? If so, believe in the Father and the Son (two persons).

Jn.17:4 – I glorified you on earth, and finished the work you gave me to do (the Boss & the workman).

Jn.17:5 – Now Father, glorify me. Two parties; one is superior, one inferior).

Jn.17:11 – Father, keep my disciples, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE. Comment: Yahshua and his Father were “one” just as the 12 Apostles should be “one;” that is, “one in purpose and doctrine.

Jn.17:18 – As YOU sent ME, so I send them into the world. Three parties: You, me, and them.

Jn.17:21 – That they may all be one in US; you and I. Us equals two or more persons.

Jn.17:22 – That the Apostles may be one as WE are ONE. Were the Apostles only one person, rather than 12 persons? Just as the Apostles were 12 individual persons, but with one goal, so the Heavenly Father and His Son were two individual persons with one goal.

Acts 2:24* – Here we have TWO persons: One ALIVE, one DEAD. Yahshua, being dead, could not raise himself. Who did? Yahweh raised him from the grave – from death (Acts 3:14,15).

Acts 2:27 – Yahshua's soul was not left in hell; it too was raised from hell, from the grave, from the dead (vs.32). By whom? By the power of Yahweh (two persons are referred to here).

Rom.1:3 – Declared to be the Son of Yahweh, … by his resurrection from the dead (two persons).

Gal.1:1 – Yahweh (the Father) raised Yahshua (the Son) from the dead. Yahshua was subject to death, but his Father was not subject to death.

Eph.6:23 – Peace to all from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua. Two separate and distinct persons.

Ph.1:2 – Grace from Yahweh our Father AND from Yahshua Messiah. Two persons.

Col.1:1 – Paul an Apostle of Yahshua Messiah by the will of Yahweh (three persons: Paul, Yahweh, & Yahshua).

1 Th.1:1 – Peace from Yahweh the Father AND the Savior Yahshua (two persons; Father and Son).

2 Th.1:2 – Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua the Messiah (two persons).

1 Tim.1:1 – Paul, an Apostle of Yahshua by command of Yahweh AND Yahshua Messiah (Two persons).

1 Tim.1:2 – Grace, mercy and peace from Yahweh the Father, AND from Yahshua the Messiah.

2 Tim.1:2 – Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua our Savior.

Titus 1:1 – Paul, a servant of Yahweh, AND an Apostle of Yahshua.

Phil.3 – Grace to you, and peace (1) from Yahweh our Father AND (2) from Yahshua Messiah.

Heb.1:1 – Yahweh in times past spoke through the prophets, but in these last days spoke to us by His Son.

Ja.1:1 – James, a servant of (1) Yahweh, and (2) Yahshua.

1 Pe.1:3 – Blessed be the El and Father of our Savior, Yahshua.

2 Pe.1:2 – Grace to you through the knowledge of Yahweh, AND of Yahshua Messiah (two parties).

1 Jn.1:3 – Our fellowship is with the Father, AND with His Son Yahshua the Messiah.

1 Jn.2:1 – If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua the Messiah (Father Yahweh & advocate Yahshua (two persons).

2 Jn.9 – Whoever abides in the doctrine of Messiah has BOTH the Father AND the Son.

Jude 1 – Yahweh the Father, AND Yahshua Messiah (two persons).

Jude 4 – Some deny the only Yahweh, AND our Savior Yahshua the Messiah (two persons).

Rev.1:1* – The revelation which Yahweh gave to Himself. No. No. Yahweh did not give the revelation to himself, but to His Son Yahshua the Messiah.

Rev.1:4* – A salutation from two persons: (1) Him who is, who was, and is to come (the eternal Yahweh);

And from Yahshua Messiah the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, etc.(vs.5).

Rev.1:9* – The word of Yahweh and the testimony of Yahshua: Two persons.

Rev.2:8* – The words of him who died (Yahshua). It is impossible for the Father to die, therefore Yahshua is not one and the same person as the Father.

Rev.2:26 – He who overcomes, I (Yahshua) will give power over the nations, even as I myself received power from my Father (vs.27). Two persons: The lesser receives power from the other.

Rev.3:5 – Two persons: one of which will confess our names before the other. Who are these two? Father Yahweh and Son Yahshua.

Rev.3:12* – He who overcomes, I (Yahshua,Vs.11) will make him a pillar in the temple of MY ELOAH; and write on him the name of MY ELOAH; etc. Yahshua's El was someone other than himself.

Rev.3:14 – The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of El's creation. Two persons spoken of: (1) El the Creator, and (2) the one who was created – the True Witness (Yahshua).

Rev.3:21 – Overcomers will sit with me (Yahshua) in my throne, as I overcame and sit with my Father in His throne. Two thrones and two persons are spoken of: (1) the Father and His throne, and (2) the Son and his throne.

Rev.4:2-11 – He who sat upon the throne (Rev.4:2,3,9,10; 5:1,7; 19:4; 20:11; 21:5), was Yahweh, the Almighty El. Yahshua, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the Lamb who was slain, and who opened the seven seals (Rev.5:2-10); was not Yahweh. He stood before the throne on which the Father (Yahweh) sat: two persons.

Rev.5:11-13 – Praises were given to (1) Him who sits on the throne, and (2) the Lamb who was slain.

Rev.6:16 – Hide us from (1) Him who sits on the throne, and (2) the wrath of the Lamb: Two persons.

Rev.7:9,10 – Salvation belongs to our El, and to the Lamb: Two persons.

Rev.7:17 – The Lamb, now on the throne, on his Father's right hand (Heb.1:3), will be their shepherd; and Yahweh will wipe away all tears: Two persons.

Rev.11:15 – The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Yahweh, and of His Messiah: two persons.

Rev.12:17 – Those who keep the commandments of Yahweh (first person), and who bear testimony of Yahshua (second person).

Rev.14:1,4 – These have the Father's Name written in their foreheads (Greek – Father and Son's name), and are the firstfruits to Yahweh AND the Lamb.

Rev.14:12 – Those who keep the commandments of Yahweh AND the faith of Yahshua: two persons.

Rev.15:3* – Three separate persons are nam
ed here: Yahweh, the Lamb, and Moses. If Moss and Yahweh are not one and the same persons, why should we think the Lamb and Yahweh are one and the same person?

Rev.19:4-7 – Four parties are named here: Yahweh the Almighty, The Lamb (Yahshua, the bridegroom), the bride of Messiah, a great multitude.

Rev.20:6 – They will be priests (1) of Yahweh and (2) of the Messiah

Rev.21:9,10 – Three parties: Yahweh, the Lamb, and the bride.

Rev.21:22 – Two parties are named: Yahweh and the Lamb. These are the temple in the New Jerusalem.

Rev.22:1 – The river of life flows from the throne of Yahweh AND of the Lamb (two persons).

Rev.22:3 – No more curse will be there for the throne of Yahweh And of the Lamb will be in the city: two persons.

To create only ONE person from these two:

(1) Yahweh the Father (who sits on the throne), and

(2) Yahshua the Son (the Messiah, the Lamb);

Requires too much bending of terms, titles, names, logic, facts, and Scriptures.

It is much better to accept the “sincere milk of the Word” (1 Pe.2:2), and “receive with meekness the engrafted Word” of Yahweh (Ja.1:21),

“…which is able to instruct you for salvation through faith in the Messiah Yahshua. For all Scripture given by inspiration of Yahweh is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of Yahweh may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim.3:16,17 KJV).

One good work which we should continually promote is FAITH; Faith in the following:

(1) Faith in the one Supreme Being who has LIVED ETERNALLY.

His Name is Yahweh, the Creator of the heavens and the earh and all things in them.

(2) Faith in Yahweh's Son; Yahshua the Messiah, who DIED to redeem sinners and arose again the third day.

He was “declared to be the Son of Yahweh… by his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:1-4).

[Constitutionalist]

The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4

Our English Bible gradually developed over the last six hundred years.

John Wycliffe is credited with the first English translation of the New Testament which was completed about 1380 C.E.

Until that time the Word of Yahweh was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people.

The Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome about 400 C.E. was the standard Bible used in the Catholic Church.

Wycliffe's translation is based upon the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek.

It is therefore a “version of a version.”

In Wycliffe's version, John 1:3-4 use the word “him” in reference to the “Word” of verse 1 and is a translation of the Latin “ipsum” and “ipso” (he, she, or it).

The next great English translator was William Tyndale.

He was an excellent Greek scholar who had access to the Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have.

The hand of the Almighty was upon Tyndale as He used him to give us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek.

His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534.

Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.

In it was life, and the life was the light of men.”

As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” “It” is a translation of the Greek “autou” meaning he, she, or it.

What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the “logos” or “word” of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe.

Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535.

It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used “him” in John 1:3-4.

In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew,” published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible.

He uses “it” in John 1:3-4.

The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible.

The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale.

For some reason Coverdale decided “it” was more correct than “him” which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, “it” instead of “him.”.

The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church.

Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden.

This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva.

The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph.

This Bible became the “household Bible of the English-speaking nations.”

It held that position for about 75 years.

It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England.

Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, “it” instead of “him.”

Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading.

Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible.

It was published in 1568.

It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people.

It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using “it,” not “him.”

In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament.

It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made.

It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin.

They chose to render John 1:3-4 using “him” as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate.

From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used “him” instead of “it” in their translation of John 1:3-4.

As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation;

“All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.

In it was life, and the life was the light of men.”

The “logos” (Word) of John 1:1 means “the spoken word” or “something said (including the thought).”

In that sense the word is an “it,” not a person but a thing.

In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence.

This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.”

Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yahshua into existence; “And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh” (Jn.1:14).

Yahshua did not become the “Word of [Yahweh]” until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.

De 32:39 says, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Yahweh the Father is speaking here.

He is saying there is no other “elohim” or no other God with Him.

John 1:1 says, ” . . .and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.”

If the “Word” is the Son and the Son was WITH God and was God, how does that harmonize with the above verse?

In De 32:39, since Yahweh was speaking, then there was no other God with Him, not even the Son.

To say the “logos” of John 1:1 is a reference to Messiah is to read him into the text.

Roman Catholic scholars had to do this in order to support their unscriptural trinity doctrine.

If Messiah did not pre-exist, the trinity doctrine would collapse, it being based upon the belief that all three members of the “godhead” were co-eternal.

Since Messiah only pre-existed in Yahweh's plan of salvation and not literally, the trinity doctrine is without foundation.

http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Jn.1.html

[georg]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 05 2009,11:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821. Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation. Kathi share glory? The bible does not say that? It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”

John17:5  ” And now O Father glorify Me together with  Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
That does state that He had a glory with His Father before the world was,  Kathi is right.
Irene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 06 2009,12:21)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 05 2009,11:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821. Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation. Kathi share glory? The bible does not say that? It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of” John17:5  ” And now O Father glorify Me together with  Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” That does state that He had a glory with His Father before the world was,  Kathi is right. Irene

It doesn't mean they SHARED GOD's Sovereign Glory it simply means that Jesus was given honour(glory)

[Lightenup]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 05 2009,19:31)

The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4 Our English Bible gradually developed over the last six hundred years. John Wycliffe is credited with the first English translation of the New Testament which was completed about 1380 C.E. Until that time the Word of Yahweh was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. The Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome about 400 C.E. was the standard Bible used in the Catholic Church. Wycliffe's translation is based upon the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek. It is therefore a “version of a version.” In Wycliffe's version, John 1:3-4 use the word “him” in reference to the “Word” of verse 1 and is a translation of the Latin “ipsum” and “ipso” (he, she, or it). The next great English translator was William Tyndale. He was an excellent Greek scholar who had access to the Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have. The hand of the Almighty was upon Tyndale as He used him to give us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek. His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534. Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.” As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” “It” is a translation of the Greek “autou” meaning he, she, or it. What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the “logos” or “word” of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe. Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535. It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used “him” in John 1:3-4. In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew,” published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible. He uses “it” in John 1:3-4. The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible. The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale. For some reason Coverdale decided “it” was more correct than “him” which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, “it” instead of “him.”. The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church. Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden. This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph. This Bible became the “household Bible of the English-speaking nations.” It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England. Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, “it” instead of “him.” Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading. Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible. It was published in 1568. It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people. It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using “it,” not “him.” In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament. It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin. They chose to render John 1:3-4 using “him” as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate. From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used “him” instead of “it” in their translation of John 1:3-4. As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation; “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.” The “logos” (Word) of John 1:1 means “the spoken word” or “something said (including the thought).” In that sense the word is an “it,” not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.” Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yahshua into existence; “And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh” (Jn.1:14). Yahshua did not become the “Word of [Yahweh]” until his birth as a flesh and blood male child. De 32:39 says, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Yahweh the Father is speaking here. He is saying there is no other “elohim” or no other God with Him. John 1:1 says, ” . . .and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.” If the “Word” is the Son and the Son was WITH God and was God, how does that harmonize with the above verse? In De 32:39, since Yahweh was speaking, then there was no other God with Him, not even the Son. To say the “logos” of John 1:1 is a reference to Messiah is to read him into the text. Roman Catholic scholars had to do this in order to support their unscriptural trinity doctrine. If Messiah did not pre-exist, the trinity doctrine would collapse, it being based upon the belief that all three members of the “godhead” were co-eternal. Since Messiah only pre-existed in Yahweh's plan of salvation and not literally, the trinity doctrine is without foundation. http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Jn.1.html

Hi Con,
Interesting last couple of posts. One thing that I don't know if you are aware of is regarding the active voice of Greek verbs. If the verb “was” is written in the active voice then the subject is doing the action which is different than verbs written in the passive voice where the subject receives the action. In John 1:1, the verb “was” is written in the active voice. Therefore the subject “the word” was actively with God, not passively with God as I suspect, would be His own plan or thought or word. That is how I understand it anyway. You might want to check into that. It happens many times to confirm that the Son wasn't just a plan in the beginning. Look at these verses: (I have highlighted in bold the verbs that are in the active voice)

John 17:5
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASU
(See here that Jesus actively had glory, not passively)

Heb 1:10
10 And, “YOU, LORD,
IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU
(This says that the Son actively laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, not passively.)

So you might want to look into the active voice of Greek verbs if you haven't already.

Blessings,
Kathi

[Constitutionalist]

Prov.30:4, “Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?”

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son.

The Creator has “established all the ends of the earth,” not the son.

This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yahshua the Messiah, the Son, is the Creator.

The very first verse of the Bible tells us, “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth.”

Since “Elohim” is a title that does not clearly identify the Creator, we need more information.

Gen.2:4 reads, “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and the heavens.”

It is quite clear that the Elohim of Gen. 1:1 is Yahweh, and He is the Creator.

Some may argue that the title “elohim” is plural, suggesting that Yahweh had assistance in creating and that His assistant was His Son Yahshua.

They will also refer to Gen.1:26 to support their belief in a plurality of Creators.

Can this be justified?

In the Hebrew of Gen.1:1, the verb “created” is singular, therefore, for the verb and noun to be in agreement, “Elohim” must also be singular.

Indeed, as the Hebrew shows throughout the Bible, Elohim can be either singular or plural based on the context.

For example, the woman in Endor who had a familiar spirit said to Saul, “I have seen an elohim coming up out of the earth” (1 Samuel 28:13).

When Saul asked what he looked like, she said, “An old man is coming up . . .” (vs. 14).

Can it be said that this apparition of Samuel is a plurality?

As Gesenius, the father of Hebrew grammarians, has said, when Elohim is applied to Yahweh, or any single deity, it is the plural of excellence or majesty, not a plural of beings.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament concurs.

It says, “The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God.

This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”

As for Gen.1:26, “And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,” it is pure assumption that “us” refers to Yahweh and Yahshua.

In fact, verse 27 shows that only one person did the actual creating. “So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

The use of “us” in verse 26 is to be understood in the same sense as a group of people sitting in a dark room where one person says, “Let's turn on the lights,” but only one person actually flips the switch.

Consider Is.42:5, “Thus saith Elohim Yahweh, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.”

It does not say, “They that created the heavens, . . .”

Yahweh himself declares that He is the Creator in Is. 45:12; “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.”

Verse 18 reads, “For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; Elohim Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is none else.”

For some reason people refuse to believe Yahweh created all things by Himself.

They insist on exalting His Son as a co-Creator of sorts.

Again we read, “Thus saith Yahweh, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Is.44:24).

See also; Job 9:1, 7-9.

Even the Son himself declares that he is not the Creator.

In Mk.10:6 he says, “But from the beginning of the creation [Yahweh] made them male and female.”

Notice Yahshua didn't say, “I made them . . .”

See also Mk.13:19.

The book of The Revelation comes to us from Yahshua.

It, too, declares that Yahweh is Creator. Rev.4:10,11 reads, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne [Yahweh], and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [Yahweh], to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

Then, Rev.5:6-7 says, “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [Yahweh] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”

Notice that the Lamb, Yahshua, takes the book from Yahweh who sits on the throne.

We just saw, in Rev.4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator.

Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.

One other reference worthy of mention is found in Acts 17:22-31.

The Apostle Paul was declaring the “Unknown Elohim” to the men of Athens.

Verse 24 reads, “[Yahweh] that made the world and all things therein,. . .”

He then continues to declare Yahweh unto them and in verse 31 says, “Because He [Yahweh] has appointed a day, in which He will judge in righteousness by that man [Yahshua] whom He has ordained.”

The Apostle declared that the Creator and the ordained judge are two different people.

The ordained judge is not “The Unknown Elohim” who created all things.

There are several reasons for the confusion concerning who created all things; poor translations, poor exegesis, and added words in the KJV that are not found in the Greek text.

There are three main references that need clarification beginning with Eph. 3:9;

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in [Yahweh], who created all things by Jesus Christ:” KJV.

The oldest Greek manuscripts do not have the words “by Jesus Christ” which would lead one to believe that he was involved in creation.

The NIV, among others, correctly omits this phrase.

The second reference is Jn.1:1-5; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” KJV.

Aside from the obvious problems of how to translate “God”, we have a problem of how to understand “the Word”.

Since verse 14 says, “And the Word was made flesh,” and since Rev.19:13 says Yahshua will be called “The Word of Yahweh,” the translators imposed their own understanding into the translation.

They understood the Word to refer to Yahshua thereby having to translate the Greek “autou” as “him”.

According to Strong's Greek Dictionary, “Word” is a translation of the Greek word “logos” meaning, “something said (including the thought).”

It refers to Yahweh's spoken word, not to a person who is called “the Word.” Yahweh's word is an “it”, not a “him”.

Verse 3 should read, “All things were made through it; and
without it was not anything made that was made.”

That is how it is translated in the Emphatic Diaglott as well as most English Bibles prior to the KJV.

For more info on this, please read the study entitled, “The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4”.

To understand how “the Word” can refer to Yahweh's spoken word, we need to read Ps.33:6; “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”

Couple that verse with the Genesis account of creation, as in Gen.1:3, “And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.”

It becomes clear that Yahweh spoke creation into existence.

Gen.1:24, “And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”

Yahweh commanded and it came to be.

Yahshua did not create anything.

Eventually, Yahweh spoke Yahshua into existence.

His word became a living seed in Miriam's womb.

His word was made flesh.

It was only then that Yahshua could be called “The Word of Yahweh.” Prior to Miriam's conception Yahshua was not “the Word.”

The final verse used to “prove” that Yahshua is the Creator is Col.1:16,17; “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

The problem, once again, lies in erroneous translation based on the translator's preconceived ideas.

Since the translators understood Yahshua to be the eternal “Word” and a member of the “Holy Trinity”, they assumed he had a hand in creation.

So they translated the Greek word “en” as “by” in verse 16a and 17, instead of “in” which is correct.

This can be seen more clearly in Eph 2:10; “For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

This verse teaches that Yahweh created “in” Yahshua, not “by” Yahshua.

They also translated the Greek word “dia” as “by” in verse 16b, instead of “through”.

All things were created by Yahweh through Yahshua and for Yahshua.

In verse 17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”.

It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority.

As in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”.

Yahshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.

The same erroneous translation of “dia” is found in Heb.1:2; “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he [Yahweh] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he [Yahweh] made the worlds;”

It should read, “through whom also He made the worlds.”

Yahweh created everything through Yahshua, through the Lamb slain before the foundation of the worlds.

When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled.

Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son.

Without the Son in Yahweh's mind there would be no creation.

It was done “through” the Son.

At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son.

It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.

The teachings of the Holy Scriptures are very clear once we understand the erroneous translations of Trinitarian translators who imposed their preconceived ideas into scripture.

Yahweh's prophet, Malachi, said, “Have we not all one father? hath not one Elohim created us?” (Mal.2:10a).

Yes, one Elohim created us and His name is Yahweh. He did not have any help nor did He need any.

To exalt Yahshua the Messiah to the position of Creator is to “worship and serve the creature more than the Creator” as the Apostle Paul taught in Rom.1:25.

Yahweh is the Creator and to Him be the glory for the great work He has done. Yahshua the Messiah is also worthy of much glory and praise for the great work he has done, but only where glory and praise is due.

He is not to be glorified as our Creator or as Yahweh our Heavenly Father.

http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Who_Is_The_Creator%3f.html

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,23:47)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 05 2009,19:31) The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4 Our English Bible gradually developed over the last six hundred years. John Wycliffe is credited with the first English translation of the New Testament which was completed about 1380 C.E. Until that time the Word of Yahweh was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. The Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome about 400 C.E. was the standard Bible used in the Catholic Church. Wycliffe's translation is based upon the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek. It is therefore a “version of a version.” In Wycliffe's version, John 1:3-4 use the word “him” in reference to the “Word” of verse 1 and is a translation of the Latin “ipsum” and “ipso” (he, she, or it). The next great English translator was William Tyndale. He was an excellent Greek scholar who had access to the Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have. The hand of the Almighty was upon Tyndale as He used him to give us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek. His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534. Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.” As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” “It” is a translation of the Greek “autou” meaning he, she, or it. What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the “logos” or “word” of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe. Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535. It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used “him” in John 1:3-4. In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew,” published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible. He uses “it” in John 1:3-4. The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible. The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale. For some reason Coverdale decided “it” was more correct than “him” which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, “it” instead of “him.”. The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church. Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden. This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph. This Bible became the “household Bible of the English-speaking nations.” It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England. Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, “it” instead of “him.” Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading. Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible. It was published in 1568. It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people. It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using “it,” not “him.” In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament. It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin. They chose to render John 1:3-4 using “him” as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate. From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used “him” instead of “it” in their translation of John 1:3-4. As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation; “All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.” The “logos” (Word) of John 1:1 means “the spoken word” or “something said (including the thought).” In that sense the word is an “it,” not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, “By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.” Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yahshua into existence; “And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh” (Jn.1:14). Yahshua did not become the “Word of [Yahweh]” until his birth as a flesh and blood male child. De 32:39 says, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Yahweh the Father is speaking here. He is saying there is no other “elohim” or no other God with Him. John 1:1 says, ” . . .and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.” If the “Word” is the Son and the Son was WITH God and was God, how does that harmonize with the above verse? In De 32:39, since Yahweh was speaking, then there was no other God with Him, not even the Son. To say the “logos” of John 1:1 is a reference to Messiah is to read him into the text. Roman Catholic scholars had to do this in order to support their unscriptural trinity doctrine. If Messiah did not pre-exist, the trinity doctrine would collapse, it being based upon the belief that all three members of the “godhead” were co-eternal. Since Messiah only pre-existed in Yahweh's plan of salvation and not literally, the trinity doctrine is without foundation. http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Jn.1.html Hi Con, Interesting last couple of posts.  One thing that I don't know if you are aware of is regarding the active voice of Greek verbs.  If the verb “was” is written in the active voice then the subject is doing the action which is different than verbs written in the passive voice where the subject receives the action.  In John 1:1, the verb “was” is written in the active voice.  Therefore the subject “the word” was actively with God, not passively with God as I suspect, would be His own plan or thought or word.  That is how I understand it anyway.  You might want to check into that.  It happens many times to confirm that the Son wasn't just a plan in the beginning.  Look at these verses: (I have highlighted in bold the verbs that are in the active voice) John 17:5 5 “Now, Father, glo rify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. NASU (See here that Jesus actively had glory, not passively) Heb 1:10 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; NASU (This says that the Son actively laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, not passively.) So you might want to look into the active voice of Greek verbs if you haven't already. Blessings, Kathi

Funny, I was just getting to that in the next post I put up. Have you done any religious graduate work? You have a good grasp on the Greek. My compliments to you.

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821. Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation. Kathi share glory? The bible does not say that? It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of”

Hi Bo,
You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.” It may imply that. I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of).

Kathi

[Constitutionalist]

Yahweh: Creator of All Things

“In the beginning Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] created the heaven and the earth” (Gen.1:1).

“And Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so” (Gen.1:11).

“And Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also” (Gen.1:16).

“And Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and Elohim saw that it was good” (Gen.1:21 ).

“And Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and Elohim saw that it was good” (Gen.1:25).

“So Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them” (Gen.1:27).

“These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and the heavens, . . . ” (Gen.2:4).

“And Yahweh Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen.2:7).

“And Yahweh Elohim said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . And Yahweh Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one . . .and the rib which Yahweh Elohim had taken from man, made he a woman” (Gen.2:18,21,22).

“And out of the ground Yahweh Elohim formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; . . .” (Gen.2:19).

“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which Yahweh Elohim had made. ” (Gen.3:1).

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that Elohim created man, in the likeness of Elohim made he him; Male and female created he them; . . . ” (Gen.5:1,2).

“And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.” (Gen.6:7).

“And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high Elohim, possessor of heaven and earth: . . .” (Gen.14:19,22).

“For in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, . . .” (Exodus 20:11).

“It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” (Ex.31:17).

“For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that Elohim [Yahweh, Gen.2:4] created man upon the earth, . . . Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that Yahweh he is Elohim; there is none else beside him. . .Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that Yahweh he is Elohim in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.” (Deut.4:32,35,39).

“. . .for the pillars of the earth are Yahweh's, and He hath set the world upon them.” (1Sam.2:8).

“And Hezekiah prayed before Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh Elohim of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the Elohim, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.” (2 King.19:15).

“For all the elohim of the people are idols: but Yahweh made the heavens.” (1Chr.16:26).

“. . .Blessed be Yahweh Elohim of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, . . .” (2Chr.2:12).

“Thou, even thou, art Yahweh alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, . . .” (Neh.9:6).

“I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with Elohim? . . . Which removeth the mountains, . . .Which shaketh the earth out of her place,. . .Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, . . .Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, . . .” (Job 9:2-9).

“But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of Yahweh hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.” (Job 12:7-10).

“He [Elohim] stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.” (Job 26:7-10).

“For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:” (Job 28:24-26).

“Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of El . . .Hast thou with him spread out the sky,” (Job 37:14-18).

“The heavens declare the glory of Elohim; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.” (Ps.19:1).

“The earth is Yahweh's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.” (Ps.24:1,2).

“By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear Yahweh: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.” (Ps.33:6,9).

“The day is thine [Elohim], the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun.” (Ps.74:16).

“For who in the heaven can be compared unto Yahweh? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto Yahweh? Elohim is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. O Yahweh Elohim of hosts, who is a strong Yahweh like unto thee? . . .The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.” (Ps.89:6-11).

“Sovereign, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art Elohim.” (Ps.90:1,2).

Yahweh reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; Yahweh is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.” (Ps.93:1,2).

“O come, let us sing unto Yahweh: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. For Yahweh is a great Elohim, and a great King above all elohim. In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before Yahweh our maker. For he is our Elohim; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.” (Ps.95:1-7).

“For all the elohim of the nations are idols: but Yahweh made the heavens.” (Ps.96:5).

“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: . . .But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.” (Ps.102:25-27).

“Bless Yahweh, O my s
oul. O Yahweh my Elohim, thou art very great; thou . . .who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: . . .Who laid the foundations of the earth, . . .Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.” (Ps.104:1-9).

“He [Yahweh, vss.1,16] appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. . . O Yahweh, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.” (Ps.104:19,24).

“Ye are blessed of Yahweh which made heaven and earth. The heaven, even the heavens, are Yahweh'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.” (Ps.115:15,16).

“For ever, O Yahweh, thy word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.” (Ps.119:89,90).

“My help cometh from Yahweh, which made heaven and earth.” (Ps.121:2).

“Our help is in the name of Yahweh, who made heaven and earth.” (Ps.124:8).

“Yahweh that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.” (Ps.134:3).

“For I know that Yahweh is great, and that our Sovereign is above all elohim. Whatsoever Yahweh pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.” (Ps.135:5-7).

“. . .To him [Yahweh, vs.1] that by wisdom made the heavens: . . .To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: . . .To him that made great lights: . . The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: The moon and stars to rule by night: . . .” (Ps.136:4-9).

“Happy is he that hath the Elohim of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in Yahweh his Elohim: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:” (Ps.146:5,6).

“Praise ye Yahweh. Praise ye Yahweh from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.” (Ps.148:1-6).

“Yahweh by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.” (Pr.3:19).

“The rich and poor meet together: Yahweh is the maker of them all.” (Pr.22:2).

“Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name , and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?” (Pr.30:4).
“As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of Elohim who maketh all.” (Eccl.11:5).

“At that day shall a man look to his Maker [Yahweh, vss.3,6], and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. . .” (Is.17:7).

“O Yahweh of hosts, Elohim of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the Elohim, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” (Is.37:16).

“Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of Yahweh, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?” (Is.40:12-14).

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:. . .” (Is.40:22).

“Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting Elohim, Yahweh, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.” (Is.40:28).

“Thus saith Elohim Yahweh, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: . . . I am Yahweh: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” (Is.42:5,8).

“But now thus saith Yahweh that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, . . .I am Yahweh, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.” (Is.43:15).

“Thus saith Yahweh the King of Israel, and his redeemer Yahweh of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Elohim.” (Is.44:6).

“Thus saith Yahweh, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Is.44:24).

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. (Is.45:5,6,12).

“For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; Elohim himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is none else.” (Is.45:18).

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.” (Is.48:12,13).

“And forgettest Yahweh thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor? . . .And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.” (Is.51:13,16).

“For thy Maker is thine husband; Yahweh of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The Elohim of the whole earth shall he be called.” (Is.54:5).

“Therefore thus saith the Sovereign Yahweh, . . .For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.” (Is.65:13,17-19).

“Thus saith Yahweh, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith Yahweh: . . .” (Is.66:1,2).

“Fear ye not me? saith Yahweh: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?” (Jer.5:22).

“Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Yahweh; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. . . But Yahweh is the true Elohim, he is the living Elohim, and an everlasting king: . . .He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to
ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.” (Jer.10:6,10-13).

“Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou he, O Yahweh our Elohim? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.” (Jer.14:22).

“Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith Yahweh. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith Yahweh.” (Jer.23:24).

“And command them to say unto their masters, Thus saith Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel; Thus shall ye say unto your masters; . . .I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.” (Jer.27:4,5).

“Thus saith Yahweh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahweh of hosts is his name:” (Jer.31:35).

“Ah Sovereign Yahweh! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: . . .Behold, I am Yahweh, the Elohim of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? (Jer.32:17,27).

“Thus saith Yahweh the maker thereof, Yahweh that formed it, to establish it; Yahweh is his name;” (Jer.33:2).

“Yahweh of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers; and they shall lift up a shout against thee. He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.” (Jer.51:14,15).

“For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, Yahweh, The Elohim of hosts, is his name.” (Amos 4:13).

“And the Sovereign Yahweh of hosts . . . It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: Yahweh is his name.” (Amos 9:5,6).

“And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear Yahweh, the Elohim of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.” (Jonah 1:9).

“The burden of the word of Yahweh for Israel, saith Yahweh, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.” (Zech.12:1).

“Have we not all one father? hath not one Elohim created us? . . .” (Mal.2:10).

“At that time Yahshua answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Sovereign of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Mt.11:25).

“But Yahshua beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with Yahweh all things are possible.” (Mt.19:26).

“And Yahshua answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation Yahweh made them male and female.” (Mk.10:5,6).

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which Yahweh created unto this time, neither shall be.” (Mk.13:19).

“And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to Yahweh with one accord, and said, Yahweh, thou art Elohim, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: . . .The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Yahweh, and against his Messiah.” (Acts 4:24-27).

“Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Yahweh: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?” (Acts 7:49,50).

“And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living Elohim, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:” (Acts 14:15).

“For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN THEO. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Yahweh that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Sovereign of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:23-26).

“Because that which may be known of Yahweh is manifest in them; for Yahweh hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse: . . .” (Rom.1:19,20).

“Who changed the truth of Yahweh into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rom.1:25).

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of Yahweh! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Yahweh? or who hath been his counsellor? . . .For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” (Rom.11:33-36).

“As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other Elohim but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one Elohim, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, through* whom are all things, and we through* him.” (1Cor.8:4-6).

* Note: The Greek word is di' and can correctly be translated for; “. . . and one Master, Yahshua Messiah, for whom are all things, . . .”

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in Yahweh, who created all things; . . .” (Eph.3:9). (Note: “by Jesus Christ” (KJV) are added words)

“For there is one El, and one mediator between Yahweh and men, the man Messiah Yahshua;” (1Tim.2:5).

“Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which Yahweh hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1Tim.4:3).

“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Master Yahshua Messiah: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Sovereign of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” (1Tim.6:14-16).

“Yahweh, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through* whom also he made the worlds;” (Heb.1:1,2).

* Note: “For” or “. . .on account of whom…” (Diaglott).

“But we see Yahshua, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of Yahweh should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, . . .” (Heb.2:9-11).

“For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is Ya
hweh.” (Heb.3:4).

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of Yahweh, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb.11:3).

“For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is Yahweh.” (Heb.11:10).

“Thou art worthy, O Yahweh, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev.4:11).

“And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:” (Rev.10:6).

“Saying with a loud voice, Fear Yahweh, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Rev.14:7).

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,23:54)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,19:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2009,09:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,15:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2009,10:03) Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2009,10:45) Bo, The kingdom will not just be the kingdom of God but the kingdom of God AND His Christ.  Christ is much more than a prophet. Rev 11:15 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” NASU Amen, Christ being God's Son is to inherit everything God owns. In revelation Jesus is not recognized as God himself, but he is glorified along side God. Like we've been saying, They share the same glory…but they are not the same being. Hi Rokkaman, Do you think that God has many “glories” and one that He does not share with another, even the Son, is the glory of always existing?  They share the glory of both always having a divine nature though. The Son has the unique glory of being His only begotten.  The Son shared the glory of being a spirit being with the Father before He was made flesh and that might have been the glory that Jesus was referring to when He mentioned that He wanted to receive “The glory which I shared with You from the beginning of all creation.”   Just curious, Kathi Very good point Kathi in regards to understanding that Glory pertaining to God is a different glory that pertains to anyone else even Moses had the Glory of God shine on his face. Etymology glory c.1300, “magnificence,” from O.Fr. glorie, from L. gloria “great praise or honor,” of uncertain origin. Gk. doxa “expectation” (Homer), later “opinion, fame,” and ultimately “glory,” was used in Biblical writing to translate a Heb. word which had a sense of “brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty,” and this was subsequently translated as L. gloria, which has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an O.E. word used in this sense. Glory days was in use by 1980s; glorious is c.1300, from O.Fr. glorieus, from L. gloriosus “full of glory,” from gloria. In 14c.-17c. it also could mean “boastful, vainglorious.” Glorified in the sense of “transformed into something better” is recorded from 1821. Thanks Bo, but don't forget that the Son DID share glory with the Father from before creation. Kathi share glory? The bible does not say that? It says he wanted the glory he had “with” meaning in the presence “of” Hi Bo, You're right, it doesn't use the word “shared.”  It may imply that.  I don't think we can be conclusive either way as to whether it was a glory that was common to each of them or just a glory that He had while He was with Him (as in the presence of). Kathi

Lightenup, I like your screen name. It's fitting.

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