The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,13:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,20:59)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,10:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,17:29)

Hi LU,
We can be given the nature of God as the Spirit brings that fruit[Gal5]
Jesus was anointed with the Holy spirit and power[Acts 10]

But you think Jesus was always anointed in the Spirit of God and the Jordan was just for show?

Only after that[lk4.1] is he said to be FULL OF the Spirit.

Hi Nick,
I do not think that Jesus was always anointed to begin His ministry that He had during His last three and a half years before crucifixion. That happened at the Jordan. I also do not think that He was ever separated from the Father as we are for it is sin that separates and Jesus was without sin.

Also we can partake of the nature of God but we didn't always have it…the Son did.

You ask,”Do you think that Jesus did the works in His own power?” My answer…no. When Jesus took on flesh He had as much power as you did when you were born. All power was given to Him.

Hi LU,
The anointing of the Spirit of God can allow us to share in the nature of God by His Spirit and produce good fruit.

On the one hand you say Jesus was not so anointed till the Jordan and on the other that he always had this nature of Godly power and grace.

Did he not inherit the nature of man through Mary too or was she just a surrogate? He called himself the son of man.

Nick,
Nature of God doesn't mean “power” of God. Power or strength is not nature…we see that in babies who are weak but have the same nature as their parents.

Hi LU,
So he had two parents.

The fruits and the gifts of the Spirit are the nature and the powers of God in Christ are they not?

October 26, 2009 at 4:42 am#153554

Participant

Nick,
The typical offspring has two parents. The Only Begotten Son of God only had a Father. As a man He still had the Father but also an earthly mother and step father, but you knew that didn't you.

The fruit of the Spirit of God is not His nature but the kind of nature He has does produce the fruit…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. I think that His nature is one that is full of grace and truth. Notice that grace and truth are not listed as “fruits” of the Spirit. I think that love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control come from a nature of grace and truth. I would agree that the gifts of the Spirit empower us but again, the gifts are not the nature of God but from the nature of God.

October 26, 2009 at 4:50 am#153555

Participant

Hi LU,
He was conceived in Mary of the Spirit and a son to Joseph by adoption?

So the expression of the Spirit of God in Christ and his brothers is only part of the nature of God?
But the fullness of the Spirit was given to him[Jn3]

October 26, 2009 at 5:01 am#153556

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,00:50)

Hi LU,
He was conceived in Mary of the Spirit and a son to Joseph by adoption?

So the expression of the Spirit of God in Christ and his brothers is only part of the nature of God?
But the fullness of the Spirit was given to him[Jn3]

Nick,
Nature is not an expression. The expression of love, joy, peace, etc. comes out of a nature that is full of grace and truth.

He was conceived in Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit of God and a son to Joseph by adoption…yes.
LU

October 26, 2009 at 5:16 am#153557

Participant

Hi LU,
So he would have expressed some of his mother's nature before the Jordan?

October 26, 2009 at 5:21 am#153559

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:18)

Mandy,
Jesus wouldn't have been a Jew had it not been for Mary…she gets credit for that also and for carrying Him in her womb and later on her hip, feeding Him, training Him in many ways, giving Him direction and for nurturing Him, for being their for Him when He was at His weakest, etc. A surrogate doesn't do all that, only a biological mother.

Love,
Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Do you realize what you are really saying when you credit Mary with being Jesus' biological mother? :;):

Most are not willing to go there…… See the Conception thread.

Love,
Mandy

October 26, 2009 at 7:28 am#153569

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51)

Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:

Quote

…God does not procreate He creates.

If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father. Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son?

Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God. The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God. My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father. The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God. There is a difference.

Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.

October 26, 2009 at 7:32 am#153570

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,15:33)

Nick,
I think that the only begotten Son had supernatural powers and that He gave them up to come as the baby Jesus. As a man, the Son did not have special powers before He was anointed at the Jordan as far as I can tell.

According to Islam Jesus was gifted from birth.

(2) Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #110)

October 26, 2009 at 9:06 am#153576

Participant

Hi BD,
Such views are of man not God.
Offer us from the bread of heaven not the dust of earth

October 26, 2009 at 3:53 pm#153585

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All…….The Trinity (IS) a blasphemy against the Spirit. As any speaking against truth is. There is only (ONE) truth about anything and whoever speaks against that truth is blaspheming against the truth of truth. We all have done and do at times speak against the truth and it is (NOT) forgiven us , we simple have to change, because the truth is not going to change is it. Blasphemy does not equate to eternal damnation as many believe, Jesus was simple saying while you speak against the truth, you are (not forgiven) because it (CAN NOT BE FORGIVEN YOU) why because you are (in a state of going against truth) So it can't be forgiven you now or in the future either, you must change and conform to what is true, or GOD will continually resist you, Truth is truth you must except it and change. When one blasphemes Jesus or his neighbor , it can be forgiven Him . But going against the truth is different because the truth never change it can't change , you have to change it's not going to. The Pharisee were blaspheming against the truth when they accused Jesus of being the prince of the devils and healing by that power, that was a blasphemy against the spirit. Because it was the spirit that performed those miracles not Jesus. Some think that because Jesus said it will not be forgiven Him is the same as saying the person is eternal destroyed , but Jesus never said that, blasphemy against the truth itself is not forgiven you or any one else for that matter, you simply have to change because it is not going to change because it can't change, truth is truth it never changes. Now or in the future. IMO

gene

October 26, 2009 at 5:02 pm#153590

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51)

Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:

Quote

…God does not procreate He creates.

Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.

Hi Bo,
I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son. We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation. So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb. Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities.

I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me. It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is. I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth.

My opinion,
Kathi

October 26, 2009 at 5:22 pm#153592

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02)

I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.

Hi Kathi,

And I am quite certain that God showed me something entirely different……

Hmmmm. This always concerns me when I hear people say that “God showed” them something. Mainly because of this very situation. You believe God showed you something, and I believe he showed me another…. This bothers me more than I can express. I've nearly left the Christian faith over it, truth be told. Can anything be counted on as fact? Or are they all mere theories? And why did God leave us in this predicament? Sigh…too many questions. I had a good, long cry the other day because I nearly feel like God has abandoned me.

Love,
Mandy

October 26, 2009 at 6:14 pm#153597

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 26 2009,13:22)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02)

I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.

Hi Kathi,

And I am quite certain that God showed me something entirely different……

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy,
I want to give you a big hug right now. God loves you and has never stopped. I heard an illustration that went like this:
When a guy and girl start dating the girl sits close to him in the car, then over the years the girl sits closer and closer to the door. Who moved? God doesn't move away, we do. Ask Him to show you how to move back. For me He brings thoughts to my head to dig deeper, or I do things that I know will help me, that have helped me before, like listening to Christian music (get out that Keith Green music).

I would like for you to tell me what you believe that God told you. I feel like He reveals truth to us like peeling the layers of an onion. Each layer leads to fuller truth. He is continually showing us a fuller truth. He is alive and communicates to us by the Spirit within us and we learn more and more how to discern the voice of God. Dying to ourselves is also an important part of it as you know. Sometimes we are going to get it right and sometimes we are going to get it wrong.

Usually we know what the problem is as to why we are feeling disconnected from Him. We just have to confess and slide back over. He knows that we are just a hunk of clay and are going to fail, yet He wants us close.

Press on Mandy,
Love,
Kathi

October 26, 2009 at 7:28 pm#153604

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51)

Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:

Quote

…God does not procreate He creates.

Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.

My opinion,
Kathi

Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say:

(6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)

So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary

47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Sura #3

You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE.

Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light

October 26, 2009 at 7:49 pm#153606

Participant

Hi BD,
In suppose you feel it is worthwhile sowing your dead seed here where the good seed flourishes?

October 26, 2009 at 11:52 pm#153631

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,07:49)

Hi BD,
In suppose you feel it is worthwhile sowing your dead seed here where the good seed flourishes?

what is the good seed and if you say I plant dead seeds then you should find comfort but If in fact I plant the living seed why try to pluck it up?

October 27, 2009 at 2:05 am#153648

Participant

Hi BD,
Whatever was not planted by the Father will be plucked up.
Islam stands out as one.

October 27, 2009 at 2:25 am#153651

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51)

Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:

Quote

…God does not procreate He creates.

Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.

My opinion,
Kathi

Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say:

47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Sura #3

You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE.

Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light

Hi Bo,

You said:

Quote

You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE.

You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry. If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible.

Thanks, Kathi

October 27, 2009 at 2:36 am#153655

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,14:05)

Hi BD,
Whatever was not planted by the Father will be plucked up.
Islam stands out as one.

You are correct and we will ultimately see. I trust in all of the word of God you just trust in the parts you like.

October 27, 2009 at 2:43 am#153659