The Trinity Doctrine

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo, Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this: Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father.  Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son? Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God.  The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God.  My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father.  The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God.  There is a difference. Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything. Hi Bo, I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son.  We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation.  So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb.  Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities. I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.  It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is.  I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth. My opinion, Kathi Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say: (6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171) So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary 47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! Sura #3 You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light Hi Bo, You said: Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry.  If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible. Thanks, Kathi Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich? You have already admitted that God created “everything” Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God. I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient?

Bo,
The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran. God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe. However God would beget is not important enough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that. Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who are called sons. The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not. His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMO

Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo, Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this: Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father.  Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son? Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God.  The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God.  My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father.  The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God.  There is a difference. Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything. Hi Bo, I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son.  We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation.  So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb.  Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities. I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.  It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is.  I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth. My opinion, Kathi Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say: (6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171) So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary 47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! Sura #3 You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light Hi Bo, You said: Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry.  If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible. Thanks, Kathi Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich? You have already admitted that God created “everything” Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God. I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient? Bo, The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran.  God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe.  However God would beget is not important enough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that.  Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who are called sons.  The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not.  His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMO Kathi

So how exactly does God reproduce?

By the way, who told you that Allah was not the same God of the Bible.

I will tell you for a certainty that God/The Spirit of God did not tell you that.

Allah is The God of Abraham and there is no other God. God will reveal more to you soon enough but right now you worship two Gods so you will have to first get past that because it is a belief even
more straying from the truth than believing in a triune God.

Polytheistic either way.

[bodhitharta]

Isaiah 43:6-8 (Young's Literal Translation)

6I am saying to the north, `Give up,' And to the south, `Restrain not.' Bring in My sons from afar, And My daughters from the end of the earth.

7Every one who is called by My name, Even for My honour I have created him, I have formed him, yea, I have made him.

[bodhitharta]

Revelation 10:6 (King James Version)

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 4:10-11 (King James Version)

10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
To be called by the name of God you need to be one with Him.
Jesus is one with Him and worked in his Father's name.
If you become one with Jesus you will too

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,15:29)

Hi BD, To be called by the name of God you need to be one with Him. Jesus is one with Him and worked in his Father's name. If you become one with Jesus you will too

I was showing how God created Jesus

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:19)

Isaiah 43:6-8 (Young's Literal Translation) 6I am saying to the north, `Give up,' And to the south, `Restrain not.' Bring in My sons from afar, And My daughters from the end of the earth. 7Every one who is called by My name, Even for My honour I have created him, I have formed him, yea, I have made him.

This is referring to the sons and daughters of the nation of Israel Bo, look at the context.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:30)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:19) Isaiah 43:6-8 (Young's Literal Translation) 6I am saying to the north, `Give up,' And to the south, `Restrain not.' Bring in My sons from afar, And My daughters from the end of the earth. 7Every one who is called by My name, Even for My honour I have created him, I have formed him, yea, I have made him. This is referring to the sons and daughters of the nation of Israel Bo, look at the context.

He said “Everyone who is call by My Name”

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
His people are scattered worldwide.
Thin on the ground but He knows those who are His.

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo, Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this: Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father.  Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son? Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God.  The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God.  My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father.  The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God.  There is a difference. Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything. Hi Bo, I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son.  We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation.  So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb.  Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities. I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.  It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is.  I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth. My opinion, Kathi Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say: (6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171) So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary 47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! Sura #3 You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light Hi Bo, You said: Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry.  If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible. Thanks, Kathi Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich? You have already admitted that God created “everything” Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God. I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient? Bo, The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran.  God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe.  However God would beget is not important enough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that.  Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who are called sons.  The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not.  His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMO Kathi So how exactly does God reproduce? By the way, who told you that Allah was not the same God of the Bible. I will tell you for a certainty that God/The Spirit of God did not tell you that. Allah is The God of Abraham and there is no other God. God will reveal more to you soon enough but right now you worship two Gods so you will have to first get past that because it is a belief even more straying from the truth than believing in a triune God. Polytheistic either way.

Bo,
I said that I don't know how God reproduced, we are not told.

The God of the quaran is not a Heavenly Father, the God of the Bible is. Here is a list of differences from what I have been told:

The God of the Bible:
Knowable
Personal
Immutable
Trustworthy
Loving
Saves by grace

The God of the Quaran
Unknowable
Non-personal
Changeable
Capricious
Remote
Saves by works of legalism

Then there is the Biblical Jesus who is:
Begotten God incarnate (as per my understanding)…both God and man
Died on the cross for our sins
Rose from the dead

Islam's Jesus:
Merely one of many prophets
Did not die on a cross
Was taken into paradise

Biblical salvation:
Men and women born sinners in need of a savior
By grace through faith in Jesus Christ
Assurance of salvation possible

Islam's salvation:
Men and women not sinners
They only need teachers and guides
Saved by works of legalism (five pillars of faith)
No assurance of salvation (unless you die as a martyr in a Holy War or Jihad)

See, they are different with different teachings.

So do you worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an then if you do, you worship two opposing Gods and that would truly be a problem with the God of Israel.

I do not worship two different sources, just one and that One has given us His Son (whom He calls “God” BTW see Hebrews 1) who is definitely not in opposition but instead they are in unity. I worship the Father and the Son, they are one in unity. You seem to worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an and they are two sources not in unity. That would be what the God of Israel is against, IMO.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:39)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:19) Isaiah 43:6-8 (Young's Literal Translation) 6I am saying to the north, `Give up,' And to the south, `Restrain not.' Bring in My sons from afar, And My daughters from the end of the earth. 7Every one who is called by My name, Even for My honour I have created him, I have formed him, yea, I have made him. This is referring to the sons and daughters of the nation of Israel Bo, look at the context. He said “Everyone who is call by My Name”

Bo, read the context. God is talking to the nation Israel as being called by His name.

Quote

Isa 43:1-15 43 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. 2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. 3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. 5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. 8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14 Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. KJV

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:28)

Revelation 10:6 (King James Version) 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Revelation 4:10-11 (King James Version) 10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

So, Bo, is God in heaven? Is He created?

These passages are acknowledging that all things that were created were created by the Most High God. I agree with that. I believe that is the message here. I do believe that He did bring all things “into being” by His Son, in other words, the Son was used to take a formless and void earth to make it formed and filled.

Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,16:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:28) Revelation 10:6 (King James Version) 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Revelation 4:10-11 (King James Version) 10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. So, Bo, is God in heaven?  Is He created? These passages are acknowledging that all things that were created were  created by the Most High God.  I agree with that. I believe that is the message here.  I do believe that He did bring all things “into being” by His Son, in other words, the Son was used to take a formless and void earth to make it formed and filled. Kathi

The scripture I showed you said that God created heaven, and the things that therein are, That would have included Jesus.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:59)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo, Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this: Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father.  Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son? Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God.  The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God.  My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father.  The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God.  There is a difference. Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything. Hi Bo, I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son.  We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation.  So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb.  Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities. I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me.  It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is.  I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth. My opinion, Kathi Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say: (6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171) So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary 47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! Sura #3 You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light Hi Bo, You said: Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry.  If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible. Thanks, Kathi Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich? You have already admitted that God created “everything” Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God. I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient? Bo, The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran.  God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe.  However God would beget is not important enough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that.  Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who are called sons.  The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not.  His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMO Kathi So how exactly does God reproduce? By the way, who told you that Allah was not the same God of the Bible. I will tell you for a certainty that God/The Spirit of God did not tell you that. Allah is The God of Abraham and there is no other God. God will reveal more to you soon enough but right now you worship two Gods so you will have to first get past that because it is a belief even more straying from the truth than believing in a triune God. Polytheistic either way. Bo, I said that I don't know how God reproduced, we are not told. The God of the quaran is not a Heavenly Father, the God of the Bible is. Here is a list of differences from what I have been told: The God of the Bible: Knowable Personal Immutable Trustworthy Loving Saves by grace The God of the Quaran Unknowable Non-personal Changeable Capricious Remote Saves by works of legalism Then there is the Biblical Jesus who is: Begotten God incarnate (as per my understanding)…both God and man Died on the cross for our sins Rose from the dead Islam's Jesus: Merely one of many prophets Did not die on a cross Was taken into paradise Biblical salvation: Men and women born sinners in need of a savior By grace through faith in Jesus Christ Assurance of salvation possible Islam's salvation: Men and women not sinners They only need teachers and guides Saved by works of legalism (five pillars of faith) No assurance of salvation (unless you die as a martyr in a Holy War or Jihad) See, they are different with different teachings. So do you worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an then if you do, you worship two opposing Gods and that would truly be a problem with the God of Israel. I do not worship two different sources, just one and that One has given us His Son (whom He calls “God” BTW see Hebrews 1) who is definitely not in opposition but instead they are in unity.  I worship the Father and the Son, they are one in unity.  You seem to worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an and they are two sources not in unity.  That would be what the God of Israel is against, IMO. Kathi

There is only One God.

I really respect your striving to understand the scriptures so please don't take our conversation in any other way.

“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” Qur'an 16:125

When I study I don't just study the words but I also study the culture and the meaning and usage of phrases so in that pursuit I offer you this:

Psalm 2:7 (King James Version)

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is just to say that David called himself begotten of God. Now you may want to assume that David was speaking about Christ here but he wasn't if we are really being honest about it. But you must understand that it was fairly common

Here is God talking to David about Solomon “I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. (Chronicles 17:13)

We also see in the scripture when Isaac is said to be the only son of Abraham but we all know that is not the case but what was the case was that Isaac was chosen to receive the covenant and authority. It seems to me based upon David and Solomon that Jesus was the one receiving the covenant and the promise which would simply mean that he was the only one with true authority to represent God, just as David and Solomon had.

Now in regards to the Quran God is as He is described in The Bible He is THE CREATOR.

(1) Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or Guardian) nor any helper.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #107)

God is not a male or a female it is more clear to say that God is your Guardian to say God is your Father may be comforting but the fact is God is your Guardian.

Just remember God made Male and Female in His image but God is a Spirit so He is beyond physical limitations or definitions therefore Father is a relative term.

Now this is what you said:

Quote

The God of the Bible Knowable:

Yet God says: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-10

Personal= (1) And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)

Immutable= (22) The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – the which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
( سورة الشورى , Ash-Shura, Chapter #42, Verse #13)

18) Then contemplate (O man!) the memorials of Allah.s Mercy!- how He gives life to the earth after its death: verily the same will give life to the men who are dead: for He has power over all things.
( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #50)

Trustworthy=256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)

Loving= (1) “And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most loving.”
( سورة هود , Hud, Chapter #11, Verse #90)

(4) And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of loving-Kindness,
( سورة البروج , Al-Burooj, Chapter #85, Verse #14)

Saves by grace= (1) The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
( سورة الفاتحة , Al-Fatiha, Chapter #1, Verse #7)

(11) They glory in the grace and the bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #171)

(4) “On that day, if the penalty is averted from any, it is due to Allah.s mercy; And that would be (salvation), the obvious fulfilment of all desire.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #16)

(8) But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation: no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة الز&#1605
;ر , Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #61)

So as you can see there is Only One God who saves by his Mercy and Grace. but those who do not repent are simply harming themselves you do believe in Hell so therefore you know God will not excuse the guilty and those are those who do not repent and does not believe.

For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
2 Chronicles 30:8-10

(15) Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #31)

(26) If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah.s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #110)

(31) But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #39)

(32) Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #74)

(34) When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say: “Peace be on you: Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #54)

(38) But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #153)

22 He is Allah, beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
23 He is Allah beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allah! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.
24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

( سورة الحشر , Al-Hashr, Chapter #59, Verse #22 – #24 )

God Bless You!

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
There is only one God so why do you offer another of your making?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,20:29)

Hi BD, There is only one God so why do you offer another of your making?

I offer The One and Only God whom you speak poorly against out of your lack of knowledge the ancient Semitic names for God (Allah and Elohim) are actually the same.

[RokkaMan]

Let it be clear when you use the term “God”

Do you mean YHWH, the supreme being of all things.

Or title as in God of…to show supreme authority.

Jesus is definately God of all things, but he is not YHWH the supreme being.

If you use God exclusively for the Supreme being, then you cannot use it in reference with Jesus for he is not YHWH.

Although being the Son of YHWH makes him supreme ruler of all things except YHWH.

And the reason he is that, is just as Lightenup said…he was and will never be spiritually disconnected from YHWH. (For he never sinned)

[Lightenup]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 27 2009,11:52)

Let it be clear when you use the term “God” Do you mean YHWH, the supreme being of all things. Or title as in God of…to show supreme authority. Jesus is definately God of all things, but he is not YHWH the supreme being. If you use God exclusively for the Supreme being, then you cannot use it in reference with Jesus for he is not YHWH. Although being the Son of YHWH makes him supreme ruler of all things except YHWH. And the reason he is that, is just as Lightenup said…he was and will never be spiritually disconnected from YHWH. (For he never sinned)

Hi Rokkaman,
It is good to see you. I asked you something in the “My eyes are open” thread and am interested in your reply.

Anyway, I agree with you in that when we say “God” we should clarify what we mean. When I say “Most High God” I am referring to the Father of Jesus and the source of all that is good-the God of the Bible. When I say “Begotten God” I am referring to the Son of the Most High God who became Jesus. When I say the God of the Qua'ran I am talking about the god of the Islam religion commonly referred to as “Allah” of which I am not a follower of.

Now what is a little complicated is when we say “YHWH” we can find times when someone appeared as a man with the name YHWH. For instance:

Gen 18:1-2
Now the Lord(YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
NASU

Many say that this “YHWH” was the pre-incarnate Jesus in which I tend to agree with. I see that in the New Testament that Jesus says that the Father has given Him (Jesus) His (the Father's) name. See here:

John 17:11-12
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
NASU

So, even the name YHWH needs clarification.

Blessings,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 28 2009,03:52)

Let it be clear when you use the term “God” Do you mean YHWH, the supreme being of all things. Or title as in God of…to show supreme authority. Jesus is definately God of all things, but he is not YHWH the supreme being. If you use God exclusively for the Supreme being, then you cannot use it in reference with Jesus for he is not YHWH. Although being the Son of YHWH makes him supreme ruler of all things except YHWH. And the reason he is that, is just as Lightenup said…he was and will never be spiritually disconnected from YHWH. (For he never sinned)

Jesus is no more the God of all things then those that God said.

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalm 82:5-7

But when this is pointed out everyone will try to alter what God has said and use special pleading in regards to Jesus but Jesus defends the truth at every turn

John 10:33-36 (King James Version)

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus admits here that God Almighty has called others who were sanctified with His word “God” and not just him.

[RokkaMan]

But we know that YHWH put all things under Jesus. If that is so Jesus is God of all things except the one who put all things under him…Is that not scripture?

So disagreeing with me is also disagreeing with scripture.

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