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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 13 2009,19:12) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 14 2009,10:34) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 14 2009,07:53) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 13 2009,20:36) CA said: Quote You guys disagree with each other on a myriad of points. Yet when it comes to the one Church Jesus established and left behind, you are all like an old boys' club. CA,
You are correct. They do not have a unified voice or a coherent Christology. And they will be allies with anyone who has Jesus under their thumb, even allies with a Muslim who denies that Jesus was crucified.thinker
Maybe he wasn't?
So you now question that Christ was crucified?thinker
Sola Scriptura can easily lead to great doubt and disillusionment…
CAThis is not a fair statement. For you have been preaching the Catholic Church as the “Only True Church”, yet I see all kinds of doubt and unbelief and disagreement with you also!
WJ
Hi CATo further clarify my point about your infallibility claim of the CC as being the “only true church” that has the authority to interpret scriptures, I paste a quote of yours in another thread.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,04:32) But the actions of any man cannot reflect on the veracity of the doctrines he teaches, only upon his failure to live up to them. I want to further say that the Catholic Church is in the lowest percent of Christian religions who have had this problem. The highest percentage of circumstances like this and the greatest amount by far come from INDEPENDENT PROTESTANT CHURCHES.
Does the world look on the Catholics and Protestants any differently based on the percentages of Pedophiles?So I ask you, if the men that you claim are infallible through Apostolic succession, can fail to live up to their doctrines or the scriptures, then are they infallible?
Wouldn't it mean that the scriptures that are inspired by the Holy Spirit are greater than the man in authority and have precedence over them?
Therefore why should we trust the man over the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth?
Which would also mean why should we trust the “organization” that was made by man?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,17:33) [quote=WorshippingJesus,Sep. 14 2009,00:54][quote=CatholicApologist,Sep. 13 2009,19:12][quote=thethinker,Sep. 14 2009,10:34][quote=Everlasting father Jesus,Sep. 14 2009,07:53][quote=thethinker,Sep. 13 2009,20:36]
Does the world look on the Catholics and Protestants any differently based on the percentages of Pedophiles?So I ask you, if the men that you claim are infallible through Apostolic succession, can fail to live up to their doctrines or the scriptures, then are they infallible?
Wouldn't it mean that the scriptures that are inspired by the Holy Spirit are greater than the man in authority and have precedence over them?
Therefore why should we trust the man over the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth?
Which would also mean why should we trust the “organization” that was made by man?
WJ
Great question. Thanks for asking it.I know there are a lot of threads going. So I'm not going to assume you've read my answer to this before. I don't mind repeating.
We do NOT believe that ANY bishop by himself is infallible. The exception is the Bishop of Rome who, as the successor of Peter, holds Peter's office and he can speak infallibly ONLY under specific and clearly defined circumstances. And this is ONLY a charism that prevents him from error. As to the rest of the bishops they can speak infallibly when they speak in unison at any ecumenical church council such as the one held in Jerusalem in Acts 15.
So bishops and priests can sin and incur strict and severe judgment from the Lord. To whom much is given much will be required. We believe that the even the pope has the free will to sin and to act scandalously, though not without grave consequence from the Lord.
I just wanted you to be clear about who we claim has infalliblity and under what circumstances.
Quote Wouldn't it mean that the scriptures that are inspired by the Holy Spirit are greater than the man in authority and have precedence over them? The Church was functioning in full force and glory before one word of the NT was ever written. A book cannot have authority apart from it's interpretation and proper understanding. The Church was not only used by God to pen Scripture, but to teach it to the faithful. The Scriptures are a book. They were not written to be a catechism so as to leave the one who reads without question as to the meaning. That's why you all disagree with each other here. You all have a different idea of what the same verse says.
Quote Therefore why should we trust the man over the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth? I don't think you quite get the fact that when you say you “trust the Holy Spirit”, you are in fact trusting your OWN ability to HEAR the Holy Spirit. If God spoke to you audibly in answer to all of your questions maybe you would have a case. But He doesn't do that for us. Instead, He gave us the Church.
Plus, the Scriptures took a very long time to produce at the cost of about 3 yrs. pay before the advent of the printing press. Owning the Scriptures for most of Christian history would have made Sola Scriptura Christianity a religion for the rich. Thank God He didn't do it this way.
Quote Which would also mean why should we trust the “organization” that was made by man? The Church was made by the man Christ Jesus. We have a direct line of succession in every generation going back to the apostles. All of the apostolic churches do. This is why they all have the same faith, same seven holy mysteries (sacraments), and same Sacred Tradition. It doesn't matter if you look at us Catholics, the Orthodox, the Coptics, the Thomas Christians of India, the Maronites, the Ethiopics, etc. We all speak with one voice concerning the faith once for all delivered to the saints. We all have a valid Eucharist. We all confess the Nicene creed. I could go on and on.
You just happen to have the unfortunate experience (like I did) to be born into a sect that had it's origin in the Protestant Reformation/Revolt. So there is a lot that you assume you know regarding the church you call the RCC. But what you may not have considered is that this is only one of the many apostolic churches founded by the apostles that comprise the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church Jesus left behind.
I challenge you to take a second look. Don't just look at us. Look at the Orthodox as well. Look at any apostolic church.
I welcome you.
Hi CA,
The biggest sect is catholicism, a cult that follows a man in Rome.
Sacraments are ritualistic magic.Hi CA
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) Great question. Thanks for asking it. I know there are a lot of threads going. So I'm not going to assume you've read my answer to this before. I don't mind repeating.
We do NOT believe that ANY bishop by himself is infallible. The exception is the Bishop of Rome who, as the successor of Peter, holds Peter's office and he can speak infallibly ONLY under specific and clearly defined circumstances. And this is ONLY a charism that prevents him from error.
But unfortunately for you history shows that Bishops of Rome have not been without error!Infallible
Definition:
1. incapable of making a mistake; 2. never failing
Synonyms: perfect, reliable, faultless, flawless
V2 Vocabulary Building DictionaryDefinition:
1. not erring: incapable of making a mistake
2. incapable of failing: certain not to fail
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition SourceSo if men can be fallible as your statement below states…
Quote We believe that the even the pope has the free will to sin and to act scandalously, though not without grave consequence from the Lord.
Then how can you make the argument of “infallibility”?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) As to the rest of the bishops they can speak infallibly when they speak in unison at any ecumenical church council such as the one held in Jerusalem in Acts 15. So bishops and priests can sin and incur strict and severe judgment from the Lord. To whom much is given much will be required. We believe that the even the pope has the free will to sin and to act scandalously, though not without grave consequence from the Lord.
Your view here seems to be circular for you are claiming “infallibility” of the Church and yet confess that the Church can err!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) I just wanted you to be clear about who we claim has infalliblity and under what circumstances.
If you claim the CC is infallible yet you claim that the leaders of that Church are fallible including the head of the Church, the Bishop of Rome, which history proves the fallibility of the head, then the Church cannot be infallible!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Wouldn't it mean that the scriptures that are inspired by the Holy Spirit are greater than the man in authority and have precedence over them?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was functioning in full force and glory before one word of the NT was ever written. A book cannot have authority apart from it's interpretation and proper understanding
But I submit to you that Jesus and the Apostles had a book also called the “Septuagint”!They also put their faith in the scriptures and not just the words of others. The Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what the Apostles were teaching were true or not.
Over 60% of the New Testament Gospel credited to the spoken words of Jesus are direct quotes to the prophetic scriptures.
Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures but in fact elevated them to the status of the Spoken word of God that would never pass away!
The Apostles also expounded on the scriptures giving them the final authority for establishing NT doctrine! Even Paul who said by direct revelation from Jesus he had recieved the Gospel, and it was in contrast to Peters teaching in the beginning of his ministry, yet Paul claimed that the OT scriptures were able to make men wise to salvation!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was not only used by God to pen Scripture, but to teach it to the faithful.
Yet much of their writings had their foundation on the established cannon of scriptures of their day! We have that same cannon by which we also can draw and use for checks and balances. You would not claim that we would have to have the Pharisees and the Sadducees or their successors to be infallible in the Interpretation of the OT Hebrew scriptures would you? If so then why doesn't the CC seek out the Orthodox Jew as the final authority in interpreting the OT scriptures? Where did Jesus ever imply that the Apostles needed to look to the leaders of the Temple for interpretation of the OT scriptures? Of course it is foolish to think such because Jesus said he would send the “Comfoter” that would teach them all things!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Scriptures are a book. They were not written to be a catechism so as to leave the one who reads without question as to the meaning.
That is not what Jesus taught nor the Apostles! Jesus and the Apostles pointed to the writings of Moses the Psalms and the Prophets! In fact Jesus said concerning Moses writings….Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. “But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words“? John 5:45
Do you see the importance of the writings of Moses here?
The words of Jesus above are what your Church has claimed as inspired and now you want us to believe that we need an “infallible interpreter” for the words of Moses and Jesus! I am sensing once again that there is another mediator here, when scriptures clearly say there is only “ONE” mediator between God and man!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) That's why you all disagree with each other here. You all have
a different idea of what the same verse says.
This is a straw and infact it is hilarious because your Fathers of the faith disputed the Deity of Jesus even to the killing of one another as history bears out the wars between “Athanasius and Arius!Seriously, you are not penning “infallibility” on the shaky history of the CC are you?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Therefore why should we trust the man over the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) I don't think you quite get the fact that when you say you “trust the Holy Spirit”, you are in fact trusting your OWN ability to HEAR the Holy Spirit.
I suppose you are right, but what about trusting Jesus my Savior for my salvation, is anyone else going to make that decision for me?Your argument also seems to be circular because your answer is to imply that I should trust in my OWN ability to hear and understand the Pope or the Priest! Should the Pope or Priest have precedence over the Holy Spirit? Jesus said “MY SHEEP” hear “MY VOICE” and another they will not follow! Jesus is the Mediator to the Father, yet you would claim that we need another “Mediator” to the Father, the Church or the Priest, I suppose! Jesus never said the “Church” was the “DOOR” did he?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) If God spoke to you audibly in answer to all of your questions maybe you would have a case. But He doesn't do that for us. Instead, He gave us the Church.
But what you are implying is that God cannot speak to me at all! If that is so then how can I have any relationship with him? Is my relationship with God through the Church? Where is that written anywhere in the history of the CC?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) Plus, the Scriptures took a very long time to produce at the cost of about 3 yrs. pay before the advent of the printing press. Owning the Scriptures for most of Christian history would have made Sola Scriptura Christianity a religion for the rich. Thank God He didn't do it this way.
Thank God for the printing press, for now men can freely read the Scriptures which are able to make them wise to salvation?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Which would also mean why should we trust the “organization” that was made by man?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was made by the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus didn’t create organized religion! The Body of Christ is the True Church which is not built with mans hands but in fact is his Temple, his Body of which he is the head made up of everyman that has been made to drink of the One Spirit! The Church is not limited to a manmade organization!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) We have a direct line of succession in every generation going back to the apostles. All of the apostolic churches do
History is missing to prove your statement!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) This is why they all have the same faith, same seven holy mysteries (sacraments), and same Sacred Tradition. It doesn't matter if you look at us Catholics, the Orthodox, the Coptics, the Thomas Christians of India, the Maronites, the Ethiopics, etc. We all speak with one voice concerning the faith once for all delivered to the saints. We all have a valid Eucharist. We all confess the Nicene creed. I could go on and on.
The JWs and the Mormons claim the same thing as well as many Protestant denominations. What does that prove? What of the wars within your own Church?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03:16)
You just happen to have the unfortunate experience (like I did) to be born into a sect that had it's origin in the Protestant Reformation/Revolt. So there is a lot that you assume you know regarding the church you call the RCC. But what you may not have considered is that this is only one of the many apostolic churches founded by the apostles that comprise the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church Jesus left behind.
Jesus hasn’t left anything behind. Jesus is the head of his Church, which is his Body!He indwells every believer that is born again by his Spirit and not by some manmade ordinance! I am fortunate enough to experience salvation through faith in him and the precious blood of atonement that he shed for me and the Holy Spirit which has come to teach me all things concerning him. God is not limited to man or his laws.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03:16)
I challenge you to take a second look. Don't just look at us. Look at the Orthodox as well. Look at any apostolic church.I welcome you.
Thanks for the welcome. But I have repented and have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, and my relationship with him is secure!WJ
Hi WJ,
Certainly you can fellowship with the Father and Son but you will have to discard catholic dogma and abide in the scriptures[2Jn9]Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2009,08:38) Hi CA Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) Great question. Thanks for asking it. I know there are a lot of threads going. So I'm not going to assume you've read my answer to this before. I don't mind repeating.
We do NOT believe that ANY bishop by himself is infallible. The exception is the Bishop of Rome who, as the successor of Peter, holds Peter's office and he can speak infallibly ONLY under specific and clearly defined circumstances. And this is ONLY a charism that prevents him from error.
But unfortunately for you history shows that Bishops of Rome have not been without error!Infallible
Definition:
1. incapable of making a mistake; 2. never failing
Synonyms: perfect, reliable, faultless, flawless
V2 Vocabulary Building DictionaryDefinition:
1. not erring: incapable of making a mistake
2. incapable of failing: certain not to fail
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition SourceSo if men can be fallible as your statement below states…
Quote We believe that the even the pope has the free will to sin and to act scandalously, though not without grave consequence from the Lord.
Then how can you make the argument of “infallibility”?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) As to the rest of the bishops they can speak infallibly when they speak in unison at any ecumenical church council such as the one held in Jerusalem in Acts 15. So bishops and priests can sin and incur strict and severe judgment from the Lord. To whom much is given much will be required. We believe that the even the pope has the free will to sin and to act scandalously, though not without grave consequence from the Lord.
Your view here seems to be circular for you are claiming “infallibility” of the Church and yet confess that the Church can err!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) I just wanted you to be clear about who we claim has infalliblity and under what circumstances.
If you claim the CC is infallible yet you claim that the leaders of that Church are fallible including the head of the Church, the Bishop of Rome, which history proves the fallibility of the head, then the Church cannot be infallible!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Wouldn't it mean that the scriptures that are inspired by the Holy Spirit are greater than the man in authority and have precedence over them?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was functioning in full force and glory before one word of the NT was ever written. A book cannot have authority apart from it's interpretation and proper understanding
But I submit to you that Jesus and the Apostles had a book also called the “Septuagint”!They also put their faith in the scriptures and not just the words of others. The Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what the Apostles were teaching were true or not.
Over 60% of the New Testament Gospel credited to the spoken words of Jesus are direct quotes to the prophetic scriptures.
Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures but in fact elevated them to the status of the Spoken word of God that would never pass away!
EThe Apostles also expounded on the scriptures giving them the final authority for establishing NT doctrine! ven Paul who said by direct revelation from Jesus he had recieved the Gospel, and it was in contrast to Peters teaching in the beginning of his ministry, yet Paul claimed that the OT scriptures were able to make men wise to salvation!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was not only used by God to pen Scripture, but to teach it to the faithful.
Yet much of their writings had their foundation on the established cannon of scriptures of their day! We have that same cannon by which we also can draw and use for checks and balances. You would not claim that we would have to have the Pharisees and the Sadducees or their successors to be infallible in the Interpretation of the OT Hebrew scriptures would you? If so then why doesn't the CC seek out the Orthodox Jew as the final authority in interpreting the OT scriptures? Where did Jesus ever imply that the Apostles needed to look to the leaders of the Temple for interpretation of the OT scriptures? Of course it is foolish to think such because Jesus said he would send the “Comfoter” that would teach them all things!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Scriptures are a book. They were not written to be a catechism so as to leave the one who reads without question as to the meaning.
That is not what Jesus taught nor the Apostles! Jesus and the Apostles pointed to the writings of Moses the Psalms and the Prophets! In fact Jesus said concerning Moses writings….Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. “But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words“? John 5:45
Do you see the importance of the writings of Moses here?
The words of Jesus above are what your Church has claimed as inspired and now you want us to believe that we need an “infallible interpreter” for the words of Moses and Jesus! I am sensing once again that there is another mediator here, when scriptures clearly say there is only “ONE” mediator between God and man!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) That's why you all disagree with each other here. You all have a different idea of what the same verse says.
This is a straw and infact it is hilarious because your Fathers of the faith disputed the Deity of Jesus even to the killing of one another as history bears out the wars between “Athanasius and Arius!Seriously, you are not penning “infallibility” on the shaky history of the CC are you?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Therefore why should we trust the man over the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) I don't think you quite get the fact that when you say you “trust the Holy Spirit”, you are in fact trusting your OWN ability to HEAR the Holy Spirit.
I suppose you are right, but what about trusting Jesus my Savior for my salvation, is anyone else going to make that decision for me?Your argument also seems to be circular because your answer is to imply that I should trust in my OWN ability to hear and understand the Pope or the Priest! Should the Pope or Priest have precedence over the Holy Spirit? Jesus said “MY SHEEP” hear “MY VOICE” and another they will not follow! Jesus is the Mediator to the Father, yet you would claim that we need another “Mediator” to the Father, the Church or the Priest, I suppose! Jesus never said the “Church” was the “DOOR” did he?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) If God spoke to you audibly in answer to all of your questions maybe you would have a case. But He doesn't do that for us. Instead, He gave us the Church.
But what you are implying is that God cannot speak to me at all! If that is so then how can I have any relationship with him? Is my relationship with God through the Church? Where is that written anywhere in the history of the CC?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) Plus, the Scriptures took a very long time to produce at the cost of about 3 yrs. pay before the advent of the printing press. Owning the Scriptures for most of Christian history would have made Sola Scriptura Christianity a religion for the rich. Thank God He didn't do it this way.
Thank God for the printing press, for now men can freely read the Scriptures which are able to make them wise to salvation?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 14 2009,00:54)
Which would also mean why should we trust the “organization” that was made by man?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) The Church was made by the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus didn’t create organized religion! The Body of Christ is the True Church which is not built with mans hands but in fact is his Temple, his Body of which he is the head made up of everyman that has been made to drink of the One Spirit! The Church is not limited to a manmade organization!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) We have a direct line of succession in every generation going back to the apostles. All of the apostolic churches do
History is missing to prove your statement!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) This is why they all have the same faith, same seven holy mysteries (sacraments), and same Sacred Tradition. It doesn't matter if you look at us Catholics, the Orthodox, the Coptics, the Thomas Christians of India, the Maronites, the Ethiopics, etc. We all speak with one voice concerning the faith once for all delivered to the saints. We all have a valid Eucharist. We all confess the Nicene creed. I could go on and on.
The JWs and the Mormons claim the same thing as well as many Protestant denominations. What does that prove? What of the wars within your own Church?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03:16)
You just happen to have the unfortunate experience (like I did) to be born into a sect that had it's origin in the Protestant Reformation/Revolt. So there is a lot that you assume you know regarding the church you call the RCC. But what you may not have considered is that this is only one of the many apostolic churches founded by the apostles that comprise the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church Jesus left behind.
Jesus hasn’t left anything behind. Jesus is the head of his Church, which is his Body!He indwells every believer that is born again by his Spirit and not by some manmade ordinance! I am fortunate enough to experience salvation through faith in him and the precious blood of atonement that he shed for me and the Holy Spirit which has come to teach me all things concerning him. God is not limited to man or his laws.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03:16)
I challenge you to take a second look. Don't just look at us. Look at the Orthodox as well. Look at any apostolic church.I welcome you.
Thanks for the welcome. But I have repented and have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, and my relationship with him is secure!WJ
Quote But unfortunately for you history shows that Bishops of Rome have not been without error! Infallible
Definition:
1. incapable of making a mistake; 2. never failing
Synonyms: perfect, reliable, faultless, fl
awless
V2 Vocabulary Building DictionaryDefinition:
1. not erring: incapable of making a mistake
2. incapable of failing: certain not to fail
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th EditionAnd we do not claim they are without error personally. We only claim that they are prevented from error under clearly defined and limited circumstances. This applies to their operation in a Christ established office and not to the personal man.
I have started a separate thread to discuss this specifically.
Quote Then how can you make the argument of “infallibility”? First understand what we are arguing and then ask that question.
Quote Your view here seems to be circular for you are claiming “infallibility” of the Church and yet confess that the Church can err! Individual Catholics may err. It is the CONSTANT TEACHING of the Church that cannot err.
Quote If you claim the CC is infallible yet you claim that the leaders of that Church are fallible including the head of the Church, the Bishop of Rome, which history proves the fallibility of the head, then the Church cannot be infallible! Again, we believe that the CC TEACHES infallibly. The Holy Spirit prevents the Church from error.
Quote But I submit to you that Jesus and the Apostles had a book also called the “Septuagint”! They did have the Septuagint. But do you remember the words of the Ethiopian eunich:
Acts 8:30,31
“And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.”
The Jews were looking for a Messiah that would come as a reigning king and deliverer from temporal rulers. Thus Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jew. Many of the Jews that practiced Sola Scriptura rejected Jesus as Messiah.
Quote They also put their faith in the scriptures and not just the words of others. The Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what the Apostles were teaching were true or not. Go read the article I posted on “Why the Bereans Rejected Sola Scriptura”
Quote Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures but in fact elevated them to the status of the Spoken word of God that would never pass away! Not quite. He said that His spoken words would not pass away. These words were not immediately written down. Yet they have not passed away.
Quote The Apostles also expounded on the scriptures giving them the final authority for establishing NT doctrine! Amen. And not everything they taught was written in the NT. You know it wasn't. So where is the Oral Apostolic Tradition you follow? (See 2 Thess. 2:15)
Quote Even Paul who said by direct revelation from Jesus he had received the Gospel, and it was in contrast to Peters teaching in the beginning of his ministry, yet Paul claimed that the OT scriptures were able to make men wise to salvation! Finish the verse. “make men wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”. The OT points to the salvation we have in Christ.
But the OT was expounded in the Church by the apostles. Go ask a Seventh Day Adventist Protestant what parts of the law Christ fulfilled and you'll have a fight on your hands. We, on the other hand, don't have those problems.
Quote Yet much of their writings had their foundation on the established cannon of scriptures of their day! We have that same cannon by which we also can draw and use for checks and balances. You would not claim that we would have to have the Pharisees and the Sadducees or their successors to be infallible in the Interpretation of the OT Hebrew scriptures would you? This is a very good question. The Pharisees and teachers of the law did have a charism from God to teach the people and bind the law of God upon them since they sat in Moses' seat. If they didn't, why did Jesus say this?:
“Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” – Matt 23: 2,3
WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO
Pretty strong words coming from our Savior.
So we see that just like the leaders of the Church today, the leaders of the OT Church could sin personally, but had Divine authority over God's people.
Interesting…
Quote If so then why doesn't the CC seek out the Orthodox Jew as the final authority in interpreting the OT scriptures? If we were under the Old Covenant, we would probably want to do just that. That would be the logical conclusion. It is certainly the conclusion made by those Jews who have rejected Jesus as Messiah.
Quote Where did Jesus ever imply that the Apostles needed to look to the leaders of the Temple for interpretation of the OT scriptures? I showed you and explained above.
Quote Of course it is foolish to think such because Jesus said he would send the “Comfoter” that would teach them all things! Yes. Jesus came as the new lawgiver that was prophesied and sent the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and through them into the Church where He leads
us into all Truth. This is why it is so chaotic outside the Church. But in the Church we have peace.Quote The words of Jesus above are what your Church has claimed as inspired and now you want us to believe that we need an “infallible interpreter” for the words of Moses and Jesus! I am sensing once again that there is another mediator here, when scriptures clearly say there is only “ONE” mediator between God and man! Maybe you would have a case for another mediator IF the Church was separated from Christ. But the Church is ONE with Christ. You cannot separate the Church from Christ anymore than you can separate the head from the body. We are a part of Christ by grace (not ontologically). Therefore we are a part of God by grace and not by ontology. He who rejects the voice of the Church rejects the voice of God. This is why God has prevented the Church from error.
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) That's why you all disagree with each other here. You all have a different idea of what the same verse says.
This is a straw and infact it is hilarious because your Fathers of the faith disputed the Deity of Jesus even to the killing of one another as history bears out the wars between “Athanasius and Arius!Arius is not our father. So no straw man here.
Quote Seriously, you are not penning “infallibility” on the shaky history of the CC are you? I am with eagerness.
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) I don't think you quite get the fact that when you say you “trust the Holy Spirit”, you are in fact trusting your OWN ability to HEAR the Holy Spirit.
I suppose you are right, but what about trusting Jesus my Savior for my salvation, is anyone else going to make that decision for me?Thank you for your honesty. There is a vast difference between your personal responsibility of exercising repentance and faith in response to God's call…and personally reconstructing the entire Christian faith using Sola Scriptura. God never intended for you to have to do this. You don't have to construct the faith, you simply have to respond to it.
Quote Your argument also seems to be circular because your answer is to imply that I should trust in my OWN ability to hear and understand the Pope or the Priest! Yes, we have been given the ability to understand the Church when she teaches us. This is why the Catechisms, Canons and Councils are spelled out so plainly. The meaning of Scripture is one of the things being taught to us. The Church is the teacher.
It is to men (not a book) that Jesus commanded “teaching them to observe all things”. Fallible men? Yes. But fallible men who are preserved from error for the purpose of teaching the faith.
Quote Should the Pope or Priest have precedence over the Holy Spirit? Of course not. Yet these are the ones empowered by the Holy Spirit to teach us the faith. They “feed My sheep”.
Quote Jesus said “MY SHEEP” hear “MY VOICE” Yes. And we hear it through the Church.
Quote Jesus never said the “Church” was the “DOOR” did he? Since the Church IS one with Him and is His true body, we are Him in a certain sense.
Quote But what you are implying is that God cannot speak to me at all! If that is so then how can I have any relationship with him? Through union with Him in the sacraments He established. And through prayer.
Quote Is my relationship with God through the Church? Yes. If it's not I challenge you to show me another means God has provided for union with Christ. Christ is only married to the Church. He has fellowship with Her.
Quote Thank God for the printing press, for now men can freely read the Scriptures which are able to make them wise to salvation? Amen. But does God love you in this generation more than He loved those without the printing press?
Quote Jesus didn’t create organized religion! The Body of Christ is the True Church which is not built with mans hands but in fact is his Temple, his Body of which he is the head made up of everyman that has been made to drink of the One Spirit! The Church is not limited to a manmade organization! The Church, being His body, is visible…not invisible. It is both and organization and an organism. To say Christ is disorganized is quite a claim.
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,03) We have a direct line of succession in every generation going back to the apostles. All of the apostolic churches do
History is missing to prove your statement!Please see the other threads where I have proved this.
Quote The JWs and the Mormons claim the same thing The difference: Our fountain is based in Christ and the apostles. Theirs is based in heretics.
Quote Jesus hasn’t left anything behind. Jesus is the head of his Church, which is his Body! Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father. We and the eucharist we are united to are His presence in the earth.
Quote I am fortunate enough to experience salvation through faith in him and the precious blood of atonement that he shed for me and the Holy Spirit which has come to teach me all things concerning him. Then why do you have so many questions? Why have you changed your opinion so often since you were “saved” (as you would put it).
Quote God is not limited to man or his laws. Amen. But He has assumed our humanity and chooses to use us.
Quote But I have repented and have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, and my relationship with him is secure! He who endures to the end is saved. You're not quite done yet, are you?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 14 2009,16:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 14 2009,16:08) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 11 2009,05:21) Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH.
Actually, the reality is that I do not want to be gullible by accepting a Church that is not the body of Christ.I think we all know deep down that we will know them by their fruits.
The fruit of the RCC is not good. Unless history is wrong, the RCC has a very bad historical record and the fact that some apologies have been made in recent times is an acknowledgement of these bad things by the RCC.
A good tree bears good fruit CA. This is what Jesus taught us.
Is it not better to see the true Church rather than be blinded by the one that shares the same name as the beast if came from?
Your crazy claim is distressing. Not that you are making it. But that you actually believe it.The truth is that the Church has consistently produced the saintliest of men in every generation. From Saint Polycarp of Smyrna who was martyred to Saint Maximilian Kobe who gave his life in the prison of Auschwitz the Church stands apart from the rest as a shining beacon of faith, hope and love.
If the Church hasn't just produced good fruit, but the best.
Don't you find it fascinating that inspite of all of your claims to the contrary, the Church still holds the highest standards of Holiness and Moral purity of any faith on planet earth?
Hi CA:God certainly has people in the Catholic church and does have and He is saying:
Quote Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,12:48) [quote=CatholicApologist,Sep. 14 2009,16:36][quote=t8,Sep. 14 2009,16:08][quote=CatholicApologist,Sep. 11 2009,05:21]
Hi CA:God certainly has people in the Catholic church and does have and He is saying:
Quote Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Rev. 18 isn't talking about the Catholic church. I think I'll start a thread about Rev. 17, 18.
CA
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 15 2009,13:36) you know could never get passed number one of their creed………
What is your creed, POK?What do you believe?
CA………Have they so deluded you you can't pick up (ANY) History book on religions and see the Horror the Catholic Church has committed in the past and even in our day in Ireland , are you really that deluded ? You remind me of a women who has a murder for a SON and say My son would never do such a thing, even though the were hundreds of witness to it. Wake up Man. The Catholic Church has committed more atrocities on mankind then anyone else has. History clearly proves that. IMO
gene
wolf,
my answer would be empty to you, as your answers will be for me. for you are one that claims to have the spirit but cannot listen to it, your church can only do this, they think you have been given an unsound mind.
is the reason you went into her arms is due to you could not be the created man Yahweh wanted you to be?
what emptiness you would have without your church, how dead you would feel without your church.
oh what would you do wolf, if you only had scriptures to read and no one telling you what they meant.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 14 2009,22:00) Hi CA,
The biggest sect is catholicism, a cult that follows a man in Rome.
Sacraments are ritualistic magic.
A Man they call FATHER i.e Papa1 Timothy 5.21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
If there were a Trinity composed of three co-equal, co-eternal “persons,” why would Paul charge Timothy by the “elect angels” and leave the “Holy Spirit” out of the picture?
And why is God as well as Jesus mentioned?
That alone proves that God and Jesus are different identities.Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 16 2009,13:29) wolf, my answer would be empty to you, as your answers will be for me. for you are one that claims to have the spirit but cannot listen to it, your church can only do this, they think you have been given an unsound mind.
is the reason you went into her arms is due to you could not be the created man Yahweh wanted you to be?
what emptiness you would have without your church, how dead you would feel without your church.
oh what would you do wolf, if you only had scriptures to read and no one telling you what they meant.
Jezebel,Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, which thou hast defied.
The Lord rebuke you
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 16 2009,18:42) And why is God as well as Jesus mentioned?
That alone proves that God and Jesus are different identities.
Uhh? Trinitarian view agrees with you.Same being, different identity…lol
Quote (eveh @ Sep. 16 2009,17:54) 1 Timothy 5.21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
If there were a Trinity composed of three co-equal, co-eternal “persons,” why would Paul charge Timothy by the “elect angels” and leave the “Holy Spirit” out of the picture?
Sorry Eveh you took one verse and applied it to a God divinity analysis when the verse had nothing to do with the personage of God.15For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Thats the text that surround that verse.
verse 21 states, I charge you before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels…that thou observer these things without preferring one before another
What things is that verse talking about? Not God, jesus, and the elect angels…it's talking about Widows receiving blame from sinners.
So the verse basically says….
As God, Jesus, and The Elect Angels are my witness, I suggest you keep these commandments to keep yourself pure.
Has nothing to do with the persnage of God.
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