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Hi CA,
So your God is a THEM?
When scripture speaks of God does it always mean THEM or only occasionally or perhaps sometimes?Or is your god not mentioned in scripture at all?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,13:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 10 2009,12:44) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,10:10) bodhitharta said: Quote You are answering your own question. Prophets and Angels that speak on behalf of God are not being God but being an ambassador for God. bd,
First, I do NOT have a polytheistic consciousness. Your own Islamic people say that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheists:Quote Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.” For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO CLASSIFIED AS “MONOTHEISTIC.” However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
Second, your tidy little “ambassador” explanation doesn't work. Gabriel did not claim he would cause Mary to conceive. He told her that the Most High would cause her to conceive (Luke 1:35). Why didn't the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar give the same word? He did NOT say to Moses, “YHWH is the God of your Fathers.” He said, “I am the God of your fathers.”
He did NOT say to Hagar, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said, “I will multiply your seed.”
So why didn't Gabriel do the same thing? Why didn't he say to Mary, “MY power will overshadow you.” Instead he said, “The power of the Most High will over shadow you.” I will tell you why: The Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar said, “I will do this or that” because He was YHWH. And Gabriel said, “The Most High will do this or that” because He was not YHWH.
Your own Islamic people confess that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheistic. So your claim that Christians are not monotheists is just your personal opinion.
And your only choice regarding the narratives of the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar is to cry “corruption.” For the Angel explicitly said to them that He was God when Gabriel did not. And both Moses and Hagar believed the Angel was God for Moses called Him “YHWH” and Hagar called Him “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13). The Angel allowed Moses and Hagar to think that He was God which makes the Angel a liar. And Moses and Hagar must have had that “gentile consciousness disability” you invented for they believed it.
Either the text is corrupt or the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar had an identity crisis or was a blatant liar.
thinker
I never said that Christians weren't monotheistic, what I did say is that many Christians that are gentiles have a gentile polytheistic consciousness which cannot conceive of PURE MONOTHEISM
I am glad that you acknowledge that trinitarians are monotheists.Now what about the Exodus 3 narrative where the Angel said “I am the God of your fathers?” What about the narrative in Genesis 16 where the Angel said to Hagar “I will multiply your seed?”
Trinitarians believe that the Angel of the Lord was an old testament manifestation of Christ.
thinker
trinitarians are Polytheistic Christians that attempt to grasp Monotheism.Christians that are non-trinitarian have been able to elevate their Consciousness to a Monotheistic consciousness.
For instance when I say “The MOST HIGH” the polytheistic mind cannot perceive a singular point instead they will perceive a pantheon.
I am not saying all this is easy to understand but it is really the case. Even those who are very monotheistic have polytheistic tendencies sometimes, for instance Nick keeps speaking about “another” God and that is a polytheistic thought.
I am aware that anyone who says that they worship God can only be talking about One God as there is no other, we can debate about their form of worship but there is no other God to worship.
So, the difference is this. A polytheistic view is to say “Your God is very strange” and a monotheistic view would be to say “You have a strange view of God”
For instance you keep saying that Allah is some “other” God and I must always ask, How many gods are there?
There is no god but GOD.
Thinker let me show you how easy it is to show that you cannot believe in the trinity:
Deuteronomy 6 (King James Version)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
One Lord would be one person, right? so as can be quickly seen here is instead of 3 persons in a Godhead the scripture assigns One “Person”/Being to One God. It is really a quite brilliant Monotheistic statement
There is a distinction between the word lord and God hence we say the Lord God if there were three persons it would say the Lords God.
Deuteronomy 6 (Young's Literal Translation)
4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;
Now once again we see that Jehovah is a Single being that is God.
Bodhitharta said:
Quote trinitarians are Polytheistic Christians that attempt to grasp Monotheism. Christians that are non-trinitarian have been able to elevate their Consciousness to a Monotheistic consciousness.
Then Moses did not “elevate” his consciousness for he said that the messenger who spoke with Hagar was YHWH (Genesis 16:13).
Hagar also failed to elevate her consciousness for she called the Messenger “The God who sees me.” And Ishmael never really received a promise from God Himself for the Messenger did not say, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said I will multiply your seed.”
bodhitharta said:
Quote 4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah; Now once again we see that Jehovah is a Single being that is God.
YHWH called Himself “Elohim” which is PLURAL. It says, “YHWH Elohim is one Lord.” YHWH therefore is a PLURAL one.
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,17:08) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,15:03) Yes the trinity doctrine is ancient.
As ancient as Babylon & Egypt.
Nice pictures. This is a prime example of “if it quacks like a duck” reasoning. Here's the problem:1. Satan was anticipating the “seed of the woman” who would crush his head. Don't you think he'd be wanting to create a counterfeit?
2. It is SO EASILY PROVEN WRONG that the Babylonians believed in “a trinity”. Give me a break! The concept of the Trinity was unique to Christianity. I challenge you to find one passage from an ancient Babylonian source teaching this. It doesn't exist.
These are crazy claims. All of them. You don't cite sources. Just crazy accusations. No archaeologist or linguist would take you seriously.
The Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity or any such language as 3 persons in one God/substance/essence is in scripture. The Trinity came to be the false foundation that it is firstly when pagans who were converted married some of their previous beliefs with their new faith. The nail in the coffin was emperor Constantine who made the Roman world embrace the doctrine.Mystery Babylon is a mystery meaning that it is not explicit. However, if you desire the truth, then God shows us the truth by his Spirit and scripture. Babylon is something that God calls us out of.
History is also a good teacher.
“Long ago – right after the Flood, a man named Nimrod emerged on the scene of history. His name means “let us rebel”. He led the founding of the first great civilization – Babylon…He led them to rebel against God. He had tremendous power, so much that he became a god in the eyes of the people. When he died, his wife, Semiramis, recognized that without him she might loose power herself, so she devised a clever plan. Semiramis was pregnant. She told everyone that the child in her womb was none other than Nimrod being reborn. This was the beginning of the greatest perversion… the concept of father/son deity, the very first incomprehensible divine trinity (the unexplainable mystery)…”
– Resurrection Sunday and
the Babylonian Connection; By Errol HalePersonally I think the problem is that most Christians, believe that the Bible is Holy Scripture and God's word, and so perfect. When this scripture has holes or inconsistencies they must be filled or explained as they can't simply be wrong or inconsistent. So when we have passages in the OT implying God as plural or hint at other divine beings, they have to be explained away in a manner that keeps the scripture itself perfect as God's so called word. Thus instead of saying that perhaps ancient Hebrews thought there were other gods besides theirs, and later they decided this was not true and changed their beliefs and didn't do a thorough enough editing job, we say this is a sign forshadowing Jesus and the Trinity. This I think is one reason we have so many versions of Christianity based on the same incomplete scripture; it has to be filled in and explained, and it can't be wrong so we weave in our own differing explanations and parcel and dissect every verse for hidden meanings to justify how we are right and all others deceived.
Cato,
True. But where does this leave the soul who longs for faith – for the truth – for the hope of eternal something? How do you reconcile these things?
Love,
MandyQuote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,23:25) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,17:08) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,15:03) Yes the trinity doctrine is ancient.
As ancient as Babylon & Egypt.
Nice pictures. This is a prime example of “if it quacks like a duck” reasoning. Here's the problem:1. Satan was anticipating the “seed of the woman” who would crush his head. Don't you think he'd be wanting to create a counterfeit?
2. It is SO EASILY PROVEN WRONG that the Babylonians believed in “a trinity”. Give me a break! The concept of the Trinity was unique to Christianity. I challenge you to find one passage from an ancient Babylonian source teaching this. It doesn't exist.
These are crazy claims. All of them. You don't cite sources. Just crazy accusations. No archaeologist or linguist would take you seriously.
The Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity or any such language as 3 persons in one God/substance/essence is in scripture. The Trinity came to be the false foundation that it is firstly when pagans who were converted married some of their previous beliefs with their new faith. The nail in the coffin was emperor Constantine who made the Roman world embrace the doctrine.Mystery Babylon is a mystery meaning that it is not explicit. However, if you desire the truth, then God shows us the truth by his Spirit and scripture. Babylon is something that God calls us out of.
History is also a good teacher.
“Long ago – right after the Flood, a man named Nimrod emerged on the scene of history. His name means “let us rebel”. He led the founding of the first great civilization – Babylon…He led them to rebel against God. He had tremendous power, so much that he became a god in the eyes of the people. When he died, his wife, Semiramis, recognized that without him she might loose power herself, so she devised a clever plan. Semiramis was pregnant. She told everyone that the child in her womb was none other than Nimrod being reborn. This was the beginning of the greatest perversion… the concept of father/son deity, the very first incomprehensible divine trinity (the unexplainable mystery)…”
– Resurrection Sunday and
the Babylonian Connection; By Errol Hale
Now you and I both know that you just went and visited some conspiracy nut website and believed everything you read without any objectivity because YOU WANTED IT TO BE TRUE.But here is a sound refutation of your claim that Constantine “made the Roman world embrace the doctrine.” Rome was NOT the first Christian kingdom to embrace Christianity. Armenia was. And they are TRINITARIANS to this day:
http://www.armenianhistory.info/christianity.htm
Quote “Long ago – right after the Flood, a man named Nimrod…. Man, you can't really be THIS gullible. When I said conspiracy site, I meant it:
http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/480551745/item/
Looks like this was put together by Seventh Day Adventists? Are you an Adventist? Probably not.
Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH.
Hi CA<
The church is the body of Christ.
Is catholicism the body of Christ enlivened by the Spirit?No just death in drag.
CA said:
Quote Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH. This is especially true in reference to their anti-trinitarianism. They do not have a single body of doctrine about Christ. Anti-trinitarians are made up of many ingredients (or sects). That's why I call them “Heinz 57.” This is evidence of the weakness of their Christologies.
Yet trinitarians speak with one voice about our Lord Jesus Christ.
thinker
Hi CA,
Certainly the trinity deception is far more popular.
Catholicism wields her control over so many.Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,20:45) Bodhitharta said: Quote trinitarians are Polytheistic Christians that attempt to grasp Monotheism. Christians that are non-trinitarian have been able to elevate their Consciousness to a Monotheistic consciousness.
Then Moses did not “elevate” his consciousness for he said that the messenger who spoke with Hagar was YHWH (Genesis 16:13).
Hagar also failed to elevate her consciousness for she called the Messenger “The God who sees me.” And Ishmael never really received a promise from God Himself for the Messenger did not say, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said I will multiply your seed.”
bodhitharta said:
Quote 4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah; Now once again we see that Jehovah is a Single being that is God.
YHWH called Himself “Elohim” which is PLURAL. It says, “YHWH Elohim is one Lord.” YHWH therefore is a PLURAL one.
thinker
You said “YHWH called Himself “Elohim” which is PLURAL”How do you say HIMSELF? Isn't HIMSELF ONE PERSON?
It says YHWH = The One That Causes to be,The “Elohim” All Powerful is One LORD “Overseer”.
The One That causes to be is The ALL powerful Overseer.
No trinity, But I do unhderstand that your polytheistic consciousness cannot bear what I am saying.
bodhitharta said:
Quote You said “YHWH called Himself “Elohim” which is PLURAL” How do you say HIMSELF? Isn't HIMSELF ONE PERSON?
It says YHWH = The One That Causes to be,The “Elohim” All Powerful is One LORD “Overseer”.
The One That causes to be is The ALL powerful Overseer.
No trinity, But I do unhderstand that your polytheistic consciousness cannot bear what I am saying.
We went through this months back on the “Death blow to trinitarianism” thread you started. Moses said that Elohim was both “us” and “him” in Genesis one. Moses also said that Adam was “them” and “him.” The U.S. government is triune. The U.S. government exists in three forms: the executive, the legislative and the judicial branches. But it is ONE government. Since governments are called “gods” in scripture we may say that the U.S. government is a triune god.
I have no “polytheistic consciousness.” You speak your own opinion. You do not speak for all Muslims as I have already shown. Your own Muslim brothers say that Christians are monotheistic. A polytheist invents gods of his own. I did not invent the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But your people invented Allah.
Back to the Messenger of YHWH. Why did the messenger say to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers.” And why did Moses call the Messenger “YHWH?” Did the Messenger have a “polytheistic consciousness” when he said, “I am the God of your fathers?” And did Moses have a “polytheistic consciousness” when he called the Messenger by YHWH's name?
You want to talk about my consciousness because you are afraid to talk about Moses' and Hagar's consciousness. If you avoid my point about Moses and Hagar one more time then you lose the argument by default. If you dodge my questions concerning Moses and Hagar again I will ignore what you say and claim victory.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 11 2009,10:52) bodhitharta said: Quote You said “YHWH called Himself “Elohim” which is PLURAL” How do you say HIMSELF? Isn't HIMSELF ONE PERSON?
It says YHWH = The One That Causes to be,The “Elohim” All Powerful is One LORD “Overseer”.
The One That causes to be is The ALL powerful Overseer.
No trinity, But I do unhderstand that your polytheistic consciousness cannot bear what I am saying.
We went through this months back on the “Death blow to trinitarianism” thread you started. Moses said that Elohim was both “us” and “him” in Genesis one. Moses also said that Adam was “them” and “him.” The U.S. government is triune. The U.S. government exists in three forms: the executive, the legislative and the judicial branches. But it is ONE government. Since governments are called “gods” in scripture we may say that the U.S. government is a triune god.
I have no “polytheistic consciousness.” You speak your own opinion. You do not speak for all Muslims as I have already shown. Your own Muslim brothers say that Christians are monotheistic. A polytheist invents gods of his own. I did not invent the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But your people invented Allah.
Back to the Messenger of YHWH. Why did the messenger say to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers.” And why did Moses call the Messenger “YHWH?” Did the Messenger have a “polytheistic consciousness” when he said, “I am the God of your fathers?” And did Moses have a “polytheistic consciousness” when he called the Messenger by YHWH's name?
You want to talk about my consciousness because you are afraid to talk about Moses' and Hagar's consciousness. If you avoid my point about Moses and Hagar one more time then you lose the argument by default. If you dodge my questions concerning Moses and Hagar again I will ignore what you say and claim victory.
thinker
Great points here about the plural of Elohim. And yes, many Muslims do admit that we (Trinitarians) are monotheistic.Quote But your people invented Allah. I really want to caution you here, though. Allah is not the invention of Islam. Allah is the Arabic word for God. I should know since probably most of the people I go to church with know at least some Arabic. It actually is a Semitic term.
Our liturgical language is Aramaic. (Or more specifically Western Syriac) The liturgical word for God in Aramaic is “Aloho”. This is an adaptation of Elohim. Whereas Allah is an adaptation of Aloho.
OK, continue…
Scripture teaches explicitly that God is one.
Scripture advises to accept that God is one.
Jesus said it was the most important commandment.Man or some men say that God is Triune.
I guess it is true what scripture says in 1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.If it is not revealed by God, then it is not true.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 11 2009,05:21) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,23:25) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,17:08) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,15:03) Yes the trinity doctrine is ancient.
As ancient as Babylon & Egypt.
Nice pictures. This is a prime example of “if it quacks like a duck” reasoning. Here's the problem:1. Satan was anticipating the “seed of the woman” who would crush his head. Don't you think he'd be wanting to create a counterfeit?
2. It is SO EASILY PROVEN WRONG that the Babylonians believed in “a trinity”. Give me a break! The concept of the Trinity was unique to Christianity. I challenge you to find one passage from an ancient Babylonian source teaching this. It doesn't exist.
These are crazy claims. All of them. You don't cite sources. Just crazy accusations. No archaeologist or linguist would take you seriously.
The Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity or any such language as 3 persons in one God/substance/essence is in scripture. The Trinity came to be the false foundation that it is firstly when pagans who were converted married some of their previous beliefs with their new faith. The nail in the coffin was emperor Constantine who made the Roman world embrace the doctrine.Mystery Babylon is a mystery meaning that it is not explicit. However, if you desire the truth, then God shows us the truth by his Spirit and scripture. Babylon is something that God calls us out of.
History is also a good teacher.
“Long ago – right after the Flood, a man named Nimrod emerged on the scene of history. His name means “let us rebel”. He led the founding of the first great civilization – Babylon…He led them to rebel against God. He had tremendous power, so much that he became a god in the eyes of the people. When he died, his wife, Semiramis, recognized that without him she might loose power herself, so she devised a clever plan. Semiramis was pregnant. She told everyone that the child in her womb was none other than Nimrod being reborn. This was the beginning of the greatest perversion… the concept of father/son deity, the very first incomprehensible divine trinity (the unexplainable mystery)…”
– Resurrection Sunday and
the Babylonian Connection; By Errol Hale
Now you and I both know that you just went and visited some conspiracy nut website and believed everything you read without any objectivity because YOU WANTED IT TO BE TRUE.But here is a sound refutation of your claim that Constantine “made the Roman world embrace the doctrine.” Rome was NOT the first Christian kingdom to embrace Christianity. Armenia was. And they are TRINITARIANS to this day:
http://www.armenianhistory.info/christianity.htm
Quote “Long ago – right after the Flood, a man named Nimrod…. Man, you can't really be THIS gullible. When I said conspiracy site, I meant it:
http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/480551745/item/
Looks like this was put together by Seventh Day Adventists? Are you an Adventist? Probably not.
Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH.
I don't belong to any denomination. I am a believer in YHWH and his son who is the messiah. I believe the Body of Christ is the Church. The true Church is the temple of God where God dwells within men.Carnal men see a carnal Church, one that is made by the hands of men. e.g., RCC, JWs, Adventists, etc. All these divisions follow after men, whether that is a CEO, Pope, or Pastor.
Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.All these divisions/denominations are the result of men drawing disciples after them. Many of these are even called by the name of a man.
But we should do all in the name of Jesus. Not in the name of Pope-whoever or any other leader.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2009,11:53) Scripture teaches explicitly that God is one.
Scripture advises to accept that God is one.
Jesus said it was the most important commandment.
I fear you are so blinded by your infatuation with your pet doctrine that you can't objectively understand that Shema statement about God's oneness is just that: A STATEMENTThe Commandment was “and thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God…”
I really want to be objective so as to avoid hypocrisy in dealing with you. So let me add further that there IS a command to “Hear”.
But I believe that Jesus was referring to a command to Love God and Love our Neighbor.
Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?Beloved T8 & Nick,
i do not have uplifting words for CA, i have made several attempts and have failed miserable.
the most i can do, is to let you two (T8 and Nick) know, so you can pass it to him, (it seems he only understands this kind of teaching) that every opputunity that the Father gives me, i tear down his statues of the man and woman that he venerates, starting with the head, father willing what they call their saints will be next, thank you.
kol tuv
T8……….Amen , Amen, to that brother. These organized religion preach there organizations calling it “Christian” but truth is they have greatly corrupted the word of GOD to fit there theologies and advance there power As there History bloody histories plainly shows. That is what is good about this site you can voice what you think and ask questions of the word of GOD, Freely. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
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