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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 10 2009,06:29) Hi TT,
You really are missing something important as your god is growing every day and now contains angels?
No support from you friends it seems now you have drifted so far from the truth.
This Angel claimed to be God long before I was born. The Angel said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Exodus 3:6)So don't accuse me Nick if the angel had some sort of identity crisis. I am just telling people what the narratives say.
I have now shown from Genesis 16 and Exodus 3 that the Angel claims to be God. There are other passages too where this Angel claimed to be God. Your only choice is to cry “corruption.”
Btw, God is not “growing” for the Angel of Jehovah was Christ. So it's still a trinity Nick.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,09:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 10 2009,06:29) Hi TT,
You really are missing something important as your god is growing every day and now contains angels?
No support from you friends it seems now you have drifted so far from the truth.
This Angel claimed to be God long before I was born. The Angel said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Exodus 3:6)So don't accuse me Nick if the angel had some sort of identity crisis. I am just telling people what the narratives say.
I have now shown from Genesis 16 and Exodus 3 that the Angel claims to be God. There are other passages too where this Angel claimed to be God. Your only choice is to cry “corruption.”
thinker
You are answering your own question. Prophets and Angels that speak on behalf of God are not being God but being an ambassador for God.You see because you have a polytheistic consciousness you see representatives of God as additional gods as opposed to representatives of One God.
When God said “Ye are gods” you see that as a multitude of gods but Jesus explains that to whom the word of God is given they were/are called gods, not that there are “gods” but they are representing “God”
ONE GOD is ALL there is He is ALL THE POWERS there is no Power without God Almighty. If God sends me, then I am His representation I speak “as” God and not IS God.
Polytheistic gentile consciousness cannot comprehend this, for instance you can see the polytheistic mind flourish in the Catholic Church. Now don't get me wrong all saints should be treasured but in-fact all believers should be treasured but Catholicism incorporates a plan of elevation that causes many to be deified as a god. They can pray to Jesus , Peter, Paul or any representative of God or even anyone remotely associated with a representative. Mary was not even a representative and she is worsipped as if she is a god.
Don't get me wrong Mary is very honoured but she is not God or a god.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:06) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,05:50) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 10 2009,03:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 09 2009,18:40) Hi CA,
Why are you so frightened to learn from the Scriptures?
Nick…………good point. I would like to know that also.peace and love………….gene
I WAS “frightened” with my own weakness and inability to hear infallibly from God. But I am at great peace now. Praise the Lord!Why aren't you boys FRIGHTENED that you can't find one verse to support Sola Scriptura?
Why aren't you FRIGHTENED that you can't give one solid argument for why you believe in the Canon of Scripture you hold?
This is why I seldom respond to you jokers. When you want to get serious and get out of the sand box and be REAL MEN, let me know.
CA,I can tell that we have a lot in common. I wish we had the luxury of hours over coffee…..
I also tremble at the knowledge that I have no certain knowledge. How does the saying go? The more I learn, the more I find that I do not know? Something like that.
You have solved your problem with the Catholic explaination and documents. I'm afraid that I will solve my problem by walking away entirely….
Love,
Mandy
Coffee…you're talking to a coffee snob. So when you put the words “hours over coffee”, I think of an overcast autumn day with a bit of a wind, snuggled up by the fire on a sofa or in a little coffee shop with a friend looking out the window. That sounds wonderful.Quote You have solved your problem with the Catholic explaination and documents. I'm afraid that I will solve my problem by walking away entirely…. Well, I really like your honesty. But I believe that God sees your journey and is going to reward you. The only thing you have to do to stop it is to give up. I hope you don't. Now in the same breath, let me say that I know what it is to be tired of the fight…tired of the struggle to find truth and to be getting nowhere certain. I know that God sees and understands this as well.
You know, the reason I think you won't give up is the belief that at some point and on some level you have encountered Jesus Christ.
I find it fascinating that God doesn't usually come to us on the level that Evangelicals count on to “know” things about God. There is a certain peace that is withheld until we are led into the Church. (one flock…one shepherd)
I'm praying for you.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,17:51) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2009,10:32) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,05:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 28 2009,06:43) Hi CA,
Why quote carnal men whose pleasure it is to invent all manner of follies?
Scripture never mentions any trinity and it is the rock.
I think you missed this part:“Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One role of a person cannot go to be with another role of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).”
Hi CA:There is no question that there are two, the Father and the Son, but the scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and not a third person.
The scripture also states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but no man can receive the Holy Spirit except by coming to God through the Son. The origin of the Holy Spirit is God's soul.
Quote 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Quote Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Quote Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
Psa 139:9 [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
I don't see how this can be any clearer.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Those Scriptures seem to be clearly talking about another person besides the Father…which brings me to my point from another thread that I am waiting for a reply from you. Sola Scriptura is Sola Me. It makes every man his own arbiter of truth.
Hi CA:Please show me where these scriptures seem to be clearly speaking of another person other than the Father.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:11) Hmmm….go on. 
OKAll persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
Hi CA,
Does scripture not teach us this and you have to rationalise it all?
It is all irrelevant if not written
Mystery Babylon indeed.bodhitharta said:
Quote You are answering your own question. Prophets and Angels that speak on behalf of God are not being God but being an ambassador for God. bd,
First, I do NOT have a polytheistic consciousness. Your own Islamic people say that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheists:Quote Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.” For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO CLASSIFIED AS “MONOTHEISTIC.” However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
Second, your tidy little “ambassador” explanation doesn't work. Gabriel did not claim he would cause Mary to conceive. He told her that the Most High would cause her to conceive (Luke 1:35). Why didn't the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar give the same word? He did NOT say to Moses, “YHWH is the God of your Fathers.” He said, “I am the God of your fathers.”
He did NOT say to Hagar, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said, “I will multiply your seed.”
So why didn't Gabriel do the same thing? Why didn't he say to Mary, “MY power will overshadow you.” Instead he said, “The power of the Most High will over shadow you.” I will tell you why: The Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar said, “I will do this or that” because He was YHWH. And Gabriel said, “The Most High will do this or that” because He was not YHWH.
Your own Islamic people confess that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheistic. So your claim that Christians are not monotheists is just your personal opinion.
And your only choice regarding the narratives of the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar is to cry “corruption.” For the Angel explicitly said to them that He was God when Gabriel did not. And both Moses and Hagar believed the Angel was God for Moses called Him “YHWH” and Hagar called Him “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13). The Angel allowed Moses and Hagar to think that He was God which makes the Angel a liar. And Moses and Hagar must have had that “gentile consciousness disability” you invented for they believed it.
Either the text is corrupt or the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar had an identity crisis or was a blatant liar.
thinker
Hi TT,
It is sad to see you turn against scripture because you have not grasped the ways of the wisdom of God.Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,10:10) bodhitharta said: Quote You are answering your own question. Prophets and Angels that speak on behalf of God are not being God but being an ambassador for God. bd,
First, I do NOT have a polytheistic consciousness. Your own Islamic people say that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheists:Quote Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.” For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO CLASSIFIED AS “MONOTHEISTIC.” However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
Second, your tidy little “ambassador” explanation doesn't work. Gabriel did not claim he would cause Mary to conceive. He told her that the Most High would cause her to conceive (Luke 1:35). Why didn't the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar give the same word? He did NOT say to Moses, “YHWH is the God of your Fathers.” He said, “I am the God of your fathers.”
He did NOT say to Hagar, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said, “I will multiply your seed.”
So why didn't Gabriel do the same thing? Why didn't he say to Mary, “MY power will overshadow you.” Instead he said, “The power of the Most High will over shadow you.” I will tell you why: The Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar said, “I will do this or that” because He was YHWH. And Gabriel said, “The Most High will do this or that” because He was not YHWH.
Your own Islamic people confess that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheistic. So your claim that Christians are not monotheists is just your personal opinion.
And your only choice regarding the narratives of the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar is to cry “corruption.” For the Angel explicitly said to them that He was God when Gabriel did not. And both Moses and Hagar believed the Angel was God for Moses called Him “YHWH” and Hagar called Him “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13). The Angel allowed Moses and Hagar to think that He was God which makes the Angel a liar. And Moses and Hagar must have had that “gentile consciousness disability” you invented for they believed it.
Either the text is corrupt or the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar had an identity crisis or was a blatant liar.
thinker
I never said that Christians weren't monotheistic, what I did say is that many Christians that are gentiles have a gentile polytheistic consciousness which cannot conceive of PURE MONOTHEISMQuote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 10 2009,12:44) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,10:10) bodhitharta said: Quote You are answering your own question. Prophets and Angels that speak on behalf of God are not being God but being an ambassador for God. bd,
First, I do NOT have a polytheistic consciousness. Your own Islamic people say that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheists:Quote Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.” For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO CLASSIFIED AS “MONOTHEISTIC.” However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
Second, your tidy little “ambassador” explanation doesn't work. Gabriel did not claim he would cause Mary to conceive. He told her that the Most High would cause her to conceive (Luke 1:35). Why didn't the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar give the same word? He did NOT say to Moses, “YHWH is the God of your Fathers.” He said, “I am the God of your fathers.”
He did NOT say to Hagar, “YHWH will multiply your seed.” He said, “I will multiply your seed.”
So why didn't Gabriel do the same thing? Why didn't he say to Mary, “MY power will overshadow you.” Instead he said, “The power of the Most High will over shadow you.” I will tell you why: The Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar said, “I will do this or that” because He was YHWH. And Gabriel said, “The Most High will do this or that” because He was not YHWH.
Your own Islamic people confess that Christians (trinitarians) are monotheistic. So your claim that Christians are not monotheists is just your personal opinion.
And your only choice regarding the narratives of the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar is to cry “corruption.” For the Angel explicitly said to them that He was God when Gabriel did not. And both Moses and Hagar believed the Angel was God for Moses called Him “YHWH” and Hagar called Him “the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13). The Angel allowed Moses and Hagar to think that He was God which makes the Angel a liar. And Moses and Hagar must have had that “gentile consciousness disability” you invented for they believed it.
Either the text is corrupt or the Angel who spoke with Moses and Hagar had an identity crisis or was a blatant liar.
thinker
I never said that Christians weren't monotheistic, what I did say is that many Christians that are gentiles have a gentile polytheistic consciousness which cannot conceive of PURE MONOTHEISM
I am glad that you acknowledge that trinitarians are monotheists.Now what about the Exodus 3 narrative where the Angel said “I am the God of your fathers?” What about the narrative in Genesis 16 where the Angel said to Hagar “I will multiply your seed?”
Trinitarians believe that the Angel of the Lord was an old testament manifestation of Christ.
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,09:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:11) Hmmm….go on.
OKAll persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
I don't suppose you've seen the Harry Potter series, have you? But as you are describing the Trinity, I am thinking of the 3-headed-dog. The dog is the “being”, and the heads are the “persons”. Would this be correct?I have truly lost my mind trying to figure out the Trinity, bro. It's been years and hundreds of people later….still I do not grasp it.
Jesus told us that it was a pre-req to “know” God and Jesus (John 17:3). If we can never really know him, how on earth (or heaven) can we have a relationship with him? When I have a relationship with someone – mystery is only intriguing for the first few months. After that you want to know someone to experience anything REAL.
Love,
MandyYes the trinity doctrine is ancient.
As ancient as Babylon & Egypt.
Also, the Queen of Heaven and child date back to Babylon.
It is also interesting to note that the Babylonians believed the following:
- The Queen of Heaven (mother of God)
- A Trinity
- Eternal torment after this life, i.e., not death but life in pain forever.
All 3 are foundational teachings of the RCC.
“Nimrod and his mother (Semiramis) became the chief entities of worship as a Madonna and child. This belief and practice spread to Egypt, where the names of the gods were Isis and Osiris. The son Osiris was born December 25.
In Asia it was Cybele and Deonius. In Rome they were called Fortuna and Jupiter. Throughout the world we still find the remnants of mother and child worship to this day.
It is no surprise that this same system still exists at the end of the age. It is called “Mystery Babylon” (Rev 17:5).
Shockingly, it is disguised as Christianity and is still practiced in the celebration of Christmas.”
–The Bible as History
by Werner KellerCA………….T8 is right you religion is pure pagan and has it roots in paganism of the ancient Babylonian, you need to dump the TRINITY garbage. It is nothing more than pure confusion. You have (NO) scripture proofs at all and have produce none either. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,09:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:11) Hmmm….go on.
OKAll persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
The Trinity says that God is a substance and not a person.Therefore when addressing God, Trinitarians need to address God as “them” as you address a person not his being or body.
When people address me, I am a “he” because I am a person (& male which is besides the point).
In scripture God is referred to as a “He”, & “him”.
He is not referred to as “them”, “they”.
Therefore, the God in scripture is not the Trinity.
Any Trinitarian who respects the English language should call God “them”, “they” because God is 3 persons to them.
However, Trinitarians do not have enough faith in their own doctrine as they know it is wrong to call God “them”. So their doctrine and their words do not match.
Angel means messenger. Sometimes the word messenger is meant. It is not always said in reference to a Cherub or Seraph.
Often God sends his heavenly host as messengers and sometimes he send men. Both are angels in that they are messengers.
Admittedly, most of the time it is referring to a being from the heavenly host and hence why we tend to think that it is always a heavenly being.Number 4397
Transliteration: mal'ak {mal-awk'}
Word Origin: from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputyUsage in the KJV: angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1
Total: 214
Definition: messenger, representative messenger angel the theophanic angelQuote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,15:14) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,09:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:11) Hmmm….go on.
OKAll persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
The Trinity says that God is a substance and not a person.Therefore when addressing God, Trinitarians need to address God as “them” as you address a person not his being or body.
When people address me, I am a “he” because I am a person (& male which is besides the point).
In scripture God is referred to as a “He”, & “him”.
He is not referred to as “them”, “they”.
Therefore, the God in scripture is not the Trinity.
Any Trinitarian who respects the English language should call God “them”, “they” because God is 3 persons to them.
However, Trinitarians do not have enough faith in their own doctrine as they know it is wrong to call God “them”. So their doctrine and their words do not match.
When speaking of the Three Persons of the Holy and Glorious Trinity, we do occasionally use the term “them”.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2009,15:03) Yes the trinity doctrine is ancient.
As ancient as Babylon & Egypt.
Nice pictures. This is a prime example of “if it quacks like a duck” reasoning. Here's the problem:1. Satan was anticipating the “seed of the woman” who would crush his head. Don't you think he'd be wanting to create a counterfeit?
2. It is SO EASILY PROVEN WRONG that the Babylonians believed in “a trinity”. Give me a break! The concept of the Trinity was unique to Christianity. I challenge you to find one passage from an ancient Babylonian source teaching this. It doesn't exist.
These are crazy claims. All of them. You don't cite sources. Just crazy accusations. No archaeologist or linguist would take you seriously.
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