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Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 11 2009,07:02) CA said: Quote Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH. This is especially true in reference to their anti-trinitarianism. They do not have a single body of doctrine about Christ. Anti-trinitarians are made up of many ingredients (or sects). That's why I call them “Heinz 57.” This is evidence of the weakness of their Christologies.
Yet trinitarians speak with one voice about our Lord Jesus Christ.
thinker
Let's take all the anit-Trinitarians out back and tar-n-feather them!!
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 10 2009,15:02) CA said: Quote Don't you find it fascinating that all of you little sects disagree with each other wildly BUT YOU ALL AGREE ON ONE THING….YOU CAN'T STAND THE REAL CHURCH. This is especially true in reference to their anti-trinitarianism. They do not have a single body of doctrine about Christ. Anti-trinitarians are made up of many ingredients (or sects). That's why I call them “Heinz 57.” This is evidence of the weakness of their Christologies.
Yet trinitarians speak with one voice about our Lord Jesus Christ.
thinker
You think they speak with one voice…you ought to ask them to explain the doctrine and you will soon hear the variety of guesses.Aristotle wrote, “… for three are all and in ‘three ways’ is the same as ‘in all ways.’ It is just as the Pythagoreans say, the whole world and all things in it are summed up in the number three … Hence we have taken this number from nature … and make use of it even for the worship of the gods.” In describing the trinity of Abydos (Osiris, Isis, and Horus), Plutarch wrote, “One should view Osiris as the origin, Isis as the receptive element, and Horus as the perfect achievement. … the number three is the first and perfect odd number.”
The Akkadians, too, grouped certain deities into trinities, like Anu, Bel, and Ea (the gods of heaven, earth, and waters), and Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar (sun-god, moon-god, and goddess of fertility). Tablet VI of The Creation Epic describes the building of Marduk’s temple (Esagila) in Babylon. In the following verse Marduk is given three names, “Anu-Enlil-Ea”: “For Anu-Enlil-Ea they founded his house and dwelling.” The gods of the Trinity of Thebes were the protector-gods of Thebes. In an Egyptian fresco Ramesses III is depicted with the Theban Trinity.
An Egyptian text of the 14th century BCE reads, “All gods are three: Amon, Re, and Ptah, and there is no second to them.” These three gods were subsumed into one of the three, Amon: “Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.” This trinity is portrayed on a trumpet of Tutankhamen. An invocation in the Demotic Chronicle reads: “Apis, Apis, Apis! That is Ptah, Pre, Horsiese … Apis is Ptah, Apis is Pre, Apis is Horsiese.” It formulates the unity of the three gods (Ptah, Pre, Horsiese) into one god, the god Apis. On an Egyptian amulet dating from the period around 100 CE, now in the British Museum, appear the three Egyptian deities Bait, Hathor, and Akori. On the opposite side of the amulet appears a distich (a strophic unit of two lines) which reads: “ One is {the god} Bait, one is {the god} Hathor, one is {the god} Akori – to these belongs one power. Be greeted, father of the world, be greeted, God in three forms {Gr. trimorjoV qeoV}.”
An inscription found in the Greek island of Mitylene was dedicated to “Zeus the all-seeing, to Pluton, and to Poseidon, the gods of all salvation.” The inscription was set up by a woman in gratitude for a safe voyage she had completed. Further on, she wrote that she was “saved by the Providence of God.” The mention of the three gods followed by the phrase “the Providence of God” implies the idea of three-gods-in-one. The triadic brotherhood of Pluton, Poseidon, and Zeus was probably formed in imitation of the trinity of Mitra, Varuna, and Indra, who appear in a Hittite treaty dated to about 1380 BCE.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 11 2009,12:28) I really want to be objective so as to avoid hypocrisy in dealing with you. So let me add further that there IS a command to “Hear”. But I believe that Jesus was referring to a command to Love God and Love our Neighbor.
Are you saying that Jesus commanded love of himself?Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 11 2009,14:51) Aristotle wrote, “… for three are all and in ‘three ways’ is the same as ‘in all ways.’ It is just as the Pythagoreans say, the whole world and all things in it are summed up in the number three … Hence we have taken this number from nature … and make use of it even for the worship of the gods.” In describing the trinity of Abydos (Osiris, Isis, and Horus), Plutarch wrote, “One should view Osiris as the origin, Isis as the receptive element, and Horus as the perfect achievement. … the number three is the first and perfect odd number.”
The Akkadians, too, grouped certain deities into trinities, like Anu, Bel, and Ea (the gods of heaven, earth, and waters), and Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar (sun-god, moon-god, and goddess of fertility). Tablet VI of The Creation Epic describes the building of Marduk’s temple (Esagila) in Babylon. In the following verse Marduk is given three names, “Anu-Enlil-Ea”: “For Anu-Enlil-Ea they founded his house and dwelling.” The gods of the Trinity of Thebes were the protector-gods of Thebes. In an Egyptian fresco Ramesses III is depicted with the Theban Trinity.
An Egyptian text of the 14th century BCE reads, “All gods are three: Amon, Re, and Ptah, and there is no second to them.” These three gods were subsumed into one of the three, Amon: “Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.” This trinity is portrayed on a trumpet of Tutankhamen. An invocation in the Demotic Chronicle reads: “Apis, Apis, Apis! That is Ptah, Pre, Horsiese … Apis is Ptah, Apis is Pre, Apis is Horsiese.” It formulates the unity of the three gods (Ptah, Pre, Horsiese) into one god, the god Apis. On an Egyptian amulet dating from the period around 100 CE, now in the British Museum, appear the three Egyptian deities Bait, Hathor, and Akori. On the opposite side of the amulet appears a distich (a strophic unit of two lines) which reads: “ One is {the god} Bait, one is {the god} Hathor, one is {the god} Akori – to these belongs one power. Be greeted, father of the world, be greeted, God in three forms {Gr. trimorjoV qeoV}.”
An inscription found in the Greek island of Mitylene was dedicated to “Zeus the all-seeing, to Pluton, and to Poseidon, the gods of all salvation.” The inscription was set up by a woman in gratitude for a safe voyage she had completed. Further on, she wrote that she was “saved by the Providence of God.” The mention of the three gods followed by the phrase “the Providence of God” implies the idea of three-gods-in-one. The triadic brotherhood of Pluton, Poseidon, and Zeus was probably formed in imitation of the trinity of Mitra, Varuna, and Indra, who appear in a Hittite treaty dated to about 1380 BCE.
Thanks for posting this. I really do appreciate it. Why do I say that? Because this is really the best anyone can do to put this argument forward. None of these pagan beliefs state what we confess about the Trinity. But I do grant that Satan tries to be a copycat. But I still think he does a terrible job.But please, let's take your argument EVEN FARTHER, shall we? Let's not just pick on the doctrine of the Trinity. Let's look at the Christian roots: Ancient Judaism:
Did The Catholic Church “Borrow Many Items From the Pagans”?
Protestant Objection “Many things used by Catholics such as votive offerings, holy water, holydays, and seasons of devotion, processions, Wedding rings, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, monks and nuns), are of pagan origin, and were borrowed from them”
A Pagan Egyptian Priest using Incense. Incense was condemned by certain prophets because of its association with idolatrous rites (11 Chron. 34:25; let,. Ii:20, 48:35), and yet scholars tell us that, about two pounds of incense per day were consumed in the Temple of Solomon.
To begin with, just because Pagans had previously used a item does not mean that it was borrowed from them. We ask our selves, so what if the pagans used them in a sense foreign to Christianity? We can adopt them, give them a new meaning, and so “reclaim” them for God and the Church. In other words, can’t these items be sanctified by their adoption into the true Church of God?
The answer is yes. If we were to study the scriptures we would find that many of the familiar objects used in Jewish Worship, were used first by the Pagans. This did not prevent God from ordaining their use among the Jews.
For example we find the Egyptians were the first use Oils, Oil Lamps, Priests, Incense, Ritualistic Anointing, Temples, Religious Processions and Tabernacles in their ancient Pagan worship. The Egyptians were also the first to have Holydays, Holy Seasons, and used Calendars. It should be noted that practice of Circumcision was also common in pre-Moses Egypt. Does this mean that the Jews “Borrowed” these items from the Pagans? Does this mean that the Jews should not have used these items? The answer to both of these questions is “NO”. God sanctioned and Sanctified the Jewish use of these items:
* Oils: Oils were were used in the temple, not just for the lamps and menorah, but as part of the sacrifices, for example the meat offerings were mingled with oil. (Lev. 7:10-12)
* Oil Lamps: The seven branched oil lamp called the “menorah” is an ancient symbol of Judaism. Its design was dictated by God when He instructed the Israelites to build the tabernacle in the wilderness. (Ex 25:31-40)
* Anointing: In that section of the Pentateuch known as the Priestly Code the Jewish high priest is anointed (Ex. 29:7; Lev. 6:13, 8:12), The other Jewish priests were anointed as well (Ex. xxx. 30, xl. 13-15). From the earliest times Jewish Kings anointed from the earliest times (Judges, ix. 8, 15; I Sam. 9:16, 10:1; II Sam. 19:10; I Kings, 1:39, 45; II Kings, 9:3, 6, 11:12).
* Priests: God set the tribe of Levi apart for the priestly service, Aaron was anointed and consecrated to the priesthood, arrayed in the robes of his office, and instructed in its manifold duties (Ex. 28. and 29.).
* Incense: Every morning the Hebrew high priest burned incense when he dressed the lamps (Ex. 30:1_9). A special altar of incense was located in front of the most Holy Place in the Tabernacle and the Temple (Ex. 38:1 f.). On the Day of Atonement the priest carried a censer of burning incense when he entered the Holy of Holies (Lev. 16: 12 f.). In later times Sadducees held that the priest should light the Incense before entering the Most Holy Place, lest lie see the glory of God; Pharisees maintained this to be superstition, and contended that the priest might light the incense after lie had entered. Incense was also burned with meat offerings (Lev. 2:1, 2, 15, 16)
* The Temple: In 2 Chronicles 7: 12-18 God blesses the Jewish Temple indicating His divine pleasure. In the scriptures it is called “the temple of the Lord” (2 Kings 11:10); “thy holy temple” (Ps. 79:1); “the house of the Lord” (2 Chr. 23:5, 12); “the house of the God of Jacob” (Isa. 2:3); “the house of my glory” (60:7); an “house of prayer” (56:7; Matt. 21:13); “an house of sacrifice” (2 Chr. 7:12); “the house of their sanctuary” (2 Chr. 36:17); “the mountain of the Lord's house” (Isa. 2:2); “our holy and our beautiful house” (64:11); “the holy mount” (27:13); “the palace for the Lord God” (1 Chr. 29:1); “the tabernacle of witness” (2 Chr. 24:6); “Zion” (Ps. 74:2; 84:7). Christ calls it “my Father's house” (John 2:16).
* Religious Processions: 2 Samuel chapter 5 Tells us about the Jewish procession to bring the Ark of the
Covenant from Obededom back to the City of David. David was joyful in heart and danced with all his might before the Ark of the Covenant .
* Tabernacles: at Mount Sinai, Moses was given instructions from God for a portable tent-like sanctuary that was to be the center of Israel's worship until the Temple of Solomon was built (Ex. 25-30). The sanctuary was called both the “Tabernacle” (“dwelling”) and the “Tent of Meeting.” The Jews even had a special religious feast day, each year, in honor of the Tabernacle (described in Leviticus 23).
* Holydays, Holy Seasons: The Jews had many Holy Days that were ordained by God, such as the Passover, feast of Unleavened bread, feast of the first fruits, The Day of Atonement, feast of Tabernacle (all of these feasts are described in Leviticus 23) which was observed in both Old and New Testaments.
* Circumcision: Circumcision was enjoined upon Abraham and his descendants as “a token of the covenant” concluded with him by God for all generations, the penalty of non-observance being “karet,” excision from the people (Gen. 27:10-14, 21:4; Lev. 12:3)Quote (Gene @ Sep. 11 2009,13:11) T8……….Amen , Amen, to that brother. These organized religion preach there organizations calling it “Christian” but truth is they have greatly corrupted the word of GOD to fit there theologies and advance there power As there History bloody histories plainly shows. That is what is good about this site you can voice what you think and ask questions of the word of GOD, Freely. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
=Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 11 2009,15:22) Thanks for posting this. I really do appreciate it. Why do I say that? Because this is really the best anyone can do to put this argument forward. None of these pagan beliefs state what we confess about the Trinity. But I do grant that Satan tries to be a copycat. But I still think he does a terrible job. But please, let's take your argument EVEN FARTHER, shall we? Let's not just pick on the doctrine of the Trinity. Let's look at the Christian roots: Ancient Judaism:
Did The Catholic Church “Borrow Many Items From the Pagans”?
Protestant Objection “Many things used by Catholics such as votive offerings, holy water, holydays, and seasons of devotion, processions, Wedding rings, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, monks and nuns), are of pagan origin, and were borrowed from them”
A Pagan Egyptian Priest using Incense. Incense was condemned by certain prophets because of its association with idolatrous rites (11 Chron. 34:25; let,. Ii:20, 48:35), and yet scholars tell us that, about two pounds of incense per day were consumed in the Temple of Solomon.
To begin with, just because Pagans had previously used a item does not mean that it was borrowed from them. We ask our selves, so what if the pagans used them in a sense foreign to Christianity? We can adopt them, give them a new meaning, and so “reclaim” them for God and the Church. In other words, can’t these items be sanctified by their adoption into the true Church of God?
The answer is yes. If we were to study the scriptures we would find that many of the familiar objects used in Jewish Worship, were used first by the Pagans. This did not prevent God from ordaining their use among the Jews.
It seems obvious to most that many practices and rituals from Pagan times and systems were adopted by both Hebrew and later Catholic worship systems. Why, perhaps it was easier to adapt existing practices to your own then to create them in total from scratch? Maybe because some of these pagan practices were deemed effective? Maybe because some of these practices were simple evolution from pagan beginnings themselves ( there are indications that ancient hebrews may have been henotheistic before the exile). As far as Satan making copies of future practices to deceive us, this seems too contrived. Perhaps, heresy of heresies, the pagan systems themselves held pieces of truth. Look at Zoroastarians and see the similarities to Jewish Essene and some forms of Christianity.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2009,11:53) Scripture teaches explicitly that God is one.
Scripture advises to accept that God is one.
Jesus said it was the most important commandment.Man or some men say that God is Triune.
I guess it is true what scripture says in 1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.If it is not revealed by God, then it is not true.
Though God is indeed one Jesus did not say that to accept God as one is the most important commandment. Where do you get this idea? He said to love God with all your heart and your neighbor is the most important commandment. If what you say is true then people who kill in the name of their one and only God are keeping the greatest commandment.
New covenant living is about loving and worshiping God according to the spirit and not according to the letter. This at its base means honoring the Son even as the Father is honored. This in turn implies that the Son in the least is to be regarded as Representative-God if not God ontologically.
You said if it is not revealed in scripture it is not true. But God is explicitly revealed as a plural one in Scripture. Therefore if revealed then true.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2009,12:51) Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?
The same question may be asked of you because you perpetuate the Arian traditions.thinker
Quote Why, perhaps it was easier to adapt existing practices to your own then to create them in total from scratch? Maybe because some of these pagan practices were deemed effective? I believe it was all about converts.
In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship.
So has always been the their tradition, to do this way.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,00:44) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2009,11:53) Scripture teaches explicitly that God is one.
Scripture advises to accept that God is one.
Jesus said it was the most important commandment.Man or some men say that God is Triune.
I guess it is true what scripture says in 1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.If it is not revealed by God, then it is not true.
Though God is indeed one Jesus did not say that to accept God as one is the most important commandment. Where do you get this idea? He said to love God with all your heart and your neighbor is the most important commandment. If what you say is true then people who kill in the name of their one and only God are keeping the greatest commandment.New covenant living is about loving and worshiping God according to the spirit and not according to the letter. This at its base means honoring the Son even as the Father is honored. This in turn implies that the Son in the least is to be regarded as Representative-God if not God ontologically.
You said if it is not revealed in scripture it is not true. But God is explicitly revealed as a plural one in Scripture. Therefore if revealed then true.
thinker
You seem to be starting to elevate your consciousness a bit here especially when you wrote:[Qute]This in turn implies that the Son in the least is to be regarded as Representative-God[/Qoute]
Now when you asked about the angels and so forth if you opened up a letter from a messenger the letter would be speaking from the sender to the sendee in first person. But even Jesus “God's representative” said
John 7:15-17 (King James Version)
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Now obviously Jesus is saying that his self i.e. person is not God but he is representing God.
John 14:23-25 (King James Version)
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
So once again you see the representative of God oscillating back and forth in Consciousness being both self-conscious and God-conscious.
Bodhitharta,
I have asked you several times to talk about Moses' and Hagar's consciousness that they believed that the Messenger of YHWH was Himself God. Moses called the Messenger of YHWH by the name “YHWH” and Hagar called the Messenger “The God who sees me” (Gen. 16:13).You have again failed to answer and I said that I would ignore anything else you said and claim that I won argument. You lose by default for not answering.
The discussion is over.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,04:12) Bodhitharta,
I have asked you several times to talk about Moses' and Hagar's consciousness that they believed that the Messenger of YHWH was Himself God. Moses called the Messenger of YHWH by the name “YHWH” and Hagar called the Messenger “The God who sees me” (Gen. 16:13).You have again failed to answer and I said that I would ignore anything else you said and claim that I won argument. You lose by default for not answering.
The discussion is over.
thinker
7And a messenger of Jehovah findeth her by the fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way [to] Shur,8and he saith, `Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence hast thou come, and whither dost thou go?' and she saith, `From the presence of Sarai, my mistress, I am fleeing.'
9And the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'
10and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-ass man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
As I have already said she is addressing Jehovah for the message is from Jehovah. The Angel is representing God.
I thought I had made that point clear long ago.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,00:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2009,12:51) Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?
The same question may be asked of you because you perpetuate the Arian traditions.thinker
Hi Thinker,Speaking of Arian traditions, don't you think it is funny that they claim Constantine FORCED the world to accept the Trinity…yet a simple reading of history and we find that he (Constantine) most probably died an Arian.
And their claim of “force” is unfounded since the edict of Milan was a degree of toleration. Christians (Trinitarians) were being butchered for centuries for their beliefs. Constantine merely said STOP the killing.
Close…but gravely erroneous as always. (What else should I expect from David)
But yes, this decree was to sanctify cultural elements that brought NO HARM to the Christian faith and morals. You don't see any temple prostitutes anymore do you? You don't even see any temples. You see the same sacrifice offered that the Church has always offered based upon the same Jewish/Heavenly pattern ordained.
Also, I reject that incense and the rest had their origin in paganism. Many things are a copy of the worship in Heaven. Satan is the copycat.
You all are so immersed in your “deep and hidden things” that you can't see with pure and untainted spiritual eyes. But that can be fixed.
Thank God for that.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,04:48) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,00:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2009,12:51) Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?
The same question may be asked of you because you perpetuate the Arian traditions.thinker
Hi Thinker,Speaking of Arian traditions, don't you think it is funny that they claim Constantine FORCED the world to accept the Trinity…yet a simple reading of history and we find that he (Constantine) most probably died an Arian.
And their claim of “force” is unfounded since the edict of Milan was a degree of toleration. Christians (Trinitarians) were being butchered for centuries for their beliefs. Constantine merely said STOP the killing.
It is not true to say that “trinitarians” were being butchered for their belief is it?bodhitharta said:
Quote As I have already said she is addressing Jehovah for the message is from Jehovah. The Angel is representing God. I thought I had made that point clear long ago.
bd,
You evaded the point long ago. I had pointed out to you that Hagar called the One she saw “the God who sees me.”“You are the God who sees; for Have I also here seen Him who sees me.”
The One Hagar called “God” is the very One she saw with her own eyes. She saw the Messenger. She said of the Messenger she saw “The God who sees me.”
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,04:48) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,00:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2009,12:51) Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?
The same question may be asked of you because you perpetuate the Arian traditions.thinker
Hi Thinker,Speaking of Arian traditions, don't you think it is funny that they claim Constantine FORCED the world to accept the Trinity…yet a simple reading of history and we find that he (Constantine) most probably died an Arian.
And their claim of “force” is unfounded since the edict of Milan was a degree of toleration. Christians (Trinitarians) were being butchered for centuries for their beliefs. Constantine merely said STOP the killing.
CA,
You are correct that Constantine is responsible for the freedom of all religions to worship God as they saw fit. But his Son Constantius forced anti-trinitarian creeds on the people.CONSTANTINE AND THE EDICT OF MILAN:
Persecution did not cease completely until Licinius and Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313. This edict brought freedom of worship, not only to Christianity but to all religions. Because Constantine believed that the “worship of God” should be the “first and chiefest care” of the ruler, he thought that there should be no alternative to freedom of religion as the “policy of the empire”, Christianity Through the Centuries, Earl E. Cairns, Zondervan, p. 93.
CONSTANTINE'S SON CONSTANTIUS FORCES ANTI-TRINITARIAN CREED:
The empire was now united under Constantius, who was increasingly inclined towards Arianism. Constantius' efforts to unite the church under the anti-Nicene banner are seen in the series of councils held in various parts of the empire from 354 to 360. Through these he finally succeeded in forcing an anti-Nicene creed on reluctant bishops, and secured the condemnation of Athanasius, leader of the Nicene party, Eerdman's Handbook on the History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, Guideposts, p. 135.
So much for the revisionist history that Arians here present.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 11 2009,13:56) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,04:48) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 12 2009,00:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2009,12:51) Hi CA,
In what way does it show love for God to deny the authority of His teachings by elevating your traditions above them?
The same question may be asked of you because you perpetuate the Arian traditions.thinker
Hi Thinker,Speaking of Arian traditions, don't you think it is funny that they claim Constantine FORCED the world to accept the Trinity…yet a simple reading of history and we find that he (Constantine) most probably died an Arian.
And their claim of “force” is unfounded since the edict of Milan was a degree of toleration. Christians (Trinitarians) were being butchered for centuries for their beliefs. Constantine merely said STOP the killing.
CA,
You are correct that Constantine is responsible for the freedom of all religions to worship God as they saw fit. But his Son Constantius forced anti-trinitarian creeds on the people.CONSTANTINE AND THE EDICT OF MILAN:
Persecution did not cease completely until Licinius and Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313. This edict brought freedom of worship, not only to Christianity but to all religions. Because Constantine believed that the “worship of God” should be the “first and chiefest care” of the ruler, he thought that there should be no alternative to freedom of religion as the “policy of the empire”, Christianity Through the Centuries, Earl E. Cairns, Zondervan, p. 93.
CONSTANTINE'S SON CONSTANTIUS FORCES ANTI-TRINIARIAN CREED:
The empire was now united under Constantius, who was increasingly inclined towards Arianism. Constantius' efforts to unite the church under the anti-Nicene banner are seen in the series of councils held in various parts of the empire from 354 to 360. Through these he finally succeeded in forcing an anti-Nicene creed on reluctant bishops, and secured the condemnation of Athanasius, leader of the Nicene party, Eerdman's Handbook on the History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, Guideposts, p. 135.
So much for the revisionist history that Arians here present. Seems the anti-trinitarians have some bad history too.
thinker
Hi Jack and CATrue, but this has been said before and as usual it is just ignored!
WJ
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