- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi not3,
The baptism of John is of repentance and water.
But the Spirit came and rested on him at his baptism of the Spirit.Mark 12
32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Read carefully and the trinity doctrine will disappear, First we see for there is one God and then it says there is none other but He,
The key is the word He
The trinitarian doctrine is based upon a 3 in 1 concept
but to say none other than He who is He?
3 can never be described as a single He, can it?
Check the greek, hebrew or whatever language you want but can “He” be any other but “He”
Is God really He, He and He? The scripture says clearly “None other than “He”
We know it is easy to get around saying there is One God because you simply say One God 3 persons but how do you get around “He” being only One “He”?
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 13 2009,14:06) Mark 12 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Read carefully and the trinity doctrine will disappear, First we see for there is one God and then it says there is none other but He,
The key is the word He
The trinitarian doctrine is based upon a 3 in 1 concept
but to say none other than He who is He?
3 can never be described as a single He, can it?
Check the greek, hebrew or whatever language you want but can “He” be any other but “He”
Is God really He, He and He? The scripture says clearly “None other than “He”
We know it is easy to get around saying there is One God because you simply say One God 3 persons but how do you get around “He” being only One “He”?
Hi bd,This is not a new argument. Trinitarians have answered this on this board before. Please see the “Elohim” thread. Read Genesis 1:26-27,
Quote And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness…. Then it says,
Quote So God created man in HIS own image Moses referred to God as both “US” and “HIM.” He referred to the man and the woman together as “HIM” also,
Quote So God created man in His own image; in the image of God he created HIM; male and female He created THEM. So the trinity doctrine will disappear eh? Not quite. All you did was prove that the debate goes on. Anti-trinitarians do not comprehend the concept of plural unity. The man and the woman together constituted a plural unity which Moses called “him.” God has always existed as a community within Himself.
No “final blow” to Trinitarianism has happened. Come up with something new my good friend
thinker
thinker
Who was it that created all things?
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
That is God's son.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The Father and the son, that is who “US” is.
Quote
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God he created HIM; male and female He created THEM.Your wrong again, male and female he created “THEM”. God did not referred to both of them as “HIM”.
There is no scripture that speaks of God as a “plural unity”, or as a “community within himself”.
There are many scriptures that speak of God as “ONE”, period.Georg
Quote (thethinker @ June 13 2009,20:58)
No “final blow” to Trinitarianism has happened. Come up with something new my good friend How about something “OLD.”
TRINITY POSITION:(If I understand it correctly)
God is a solitary being who is three persons. The Lord our God is one (in nature,essence or being). He is the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit whom we refer to as the trinity or triune God. He is one being who is 3 in persons.REBUTTAL:
EGW EIMI SHADDAI EL
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, [Grk. egw, eimi o` Theos] I am [Heb = Shaddai El] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.I………egw…..nominative 1st person singular pronoun
am……..eimi….indicative present active 1st person singular verb = “to be”
the…….o`……nominative masculine definite article singular
God…….Theos…nominative masculine singular nounA “being” who used “first-person-singular” pronouns to describe himself in Exo 3:14 –
I…….. egw = nominative singular pronoun
am….. eimi = indicative present active 1st person singular
the….. o` = nominative masculine singular definite article
being..wn = participle nominative present active masculine singularGod asserts he is a single-person being.
And Jesus is the image of his what?
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, [upostasews] genitive feminine singularScripture establishes that God is a singular being and a singular person.
LXE Exodus 3:14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING;
and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE
BEING has sent me to you.Godtheos = nom masc s noun
Iegw = nom s. pronoun
ameimi = ind. pres. act. 1st pers s. v.
theo` = nom masc s. def art.
beingwn = v.part. nom. pres. act. masc. s.Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai [God Almighty], but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me MONON [alone]: and yet I am OUK MONOS [not alone], because the Father is with me.
2 Kings 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou MONOS [alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name MONOS [alone] is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art [Jehovah] LORD MONOS [alone]; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalm 86:10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God MONOS [alone].
Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou MONOS [alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith El Jehovah [God the LORD], he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one El [God] created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that EGW EIMI [I am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 EGW 'O THEOS [I, even I, am the LORD]; and beside me there is no saviour.Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS [alone]; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45: 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; EGW EIMI KURIOS [I the LORD] have created it.
12 EGW [I] have made the earth, and created man upon it: EGW [I], even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have EGW [I] commanded.
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: EGW EIMI [I am] the LORD; and there is none else.JEHOVAH IS ADONAY AND ELOHIYM
Isa 7:7 Thus saith Adonay Jehovih [the Lord GOD], It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. 11 Ask thee a sign of Jehovah Elohiym [the LORD thy God]; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 14 Therefore Adonay [the Lord] himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
[with us El]JEHOVAH IS EL
Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith El Jehovah [God the LORD], he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:Jesus is not El; he is son of El.
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no El [God] formed, neither shall there be after me.JEHOVAH IS EL
Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses saith Jehovah [the LORD], that I am El [God].BESIDE JEHOVAH THERE IS NO ELOHIYM
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith JEHOVAH [the LORD] the King of Israel, and his redeemer JEHOVAH [the LORD] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Elohiym [God].Isaiah 45:5 I am JEHOVAH [the LORD], and there is none else, there is no ELOHIYM [God] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith JEHOVAH [the LORD] that created the heavens; ELOHIYM [God] himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am JEHOVAH [the LORD]; and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I JEHOVAH [the LORD]? and there is no ELOHIYM [God] else beside me; a just EL [God] and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
THERE IS NONE EQUAL
Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Psalm 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto JEHOVAH [the LORD]? who among the sons of EL [the mighty] can be likened unto JEHOVAH [the LORD]?
WHO IS EQUAL TO THE SON?
PSALM 55:12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.MAN AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.MAN IN FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.TRINITARIAN: BUT SIR, WHAT ABOUT GENESIS 1:26? “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:”
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.Psalm 104:24 “O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.”
Psalm 136:5 “To him that by wisdom made the heavens…”
Wisdom was beside God in the creation.
TRINITARIAN: BUT SIR, WHAT ABOUT Col 1:16 AND JESUS IN CREATION?
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Look at what Paul actually SAYS –
[PAUL] “For by him (Jesus) were all things created….”
But you see, That does not end Paul's' statement, so why end it there? “…{PAUL] “that are in heaven and that are in earth…”
That still dosen't cover all that Paul said –
[PAUL] “…visible and invisible…”
keep going –
[PAUL] Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers…”
See that limiting parameter? WHETHER THEY BE….
Paul says Jesus created allthings WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers…NOTHING ELSE IS INCLUDED IN THE “ALL THINGS” OF JESUS' PART IN CREATION. It is a reference to the “new creation, because that is the ONLY creation in which Jesus was involved in scripture.
II Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Jesus laid the foundation for the new earth when he preached the sermon on the mount as recorded in Mat 5-7.
And he laid the foundation for the new heaven when he ascended to God's right hand, and all the thrones, and dominions, and principalities and powers in heavenly places, both visible and invisible, had to adjust downward one position to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom of God.
It became “all things new in heaven and earth,” which is what John referenced in John 1:3 concerning the logos or blueprint in the mind of God, “All things [egeneto] became by it; and without it nothing [egeneto] became that has [gegonen] become.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 13 2009,14:06) Mark 12 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Read carefully and the trinity doctrine will disappear, First we see for there is one God and then it says there is none other but He,
The key is the word He
The trinitarian doctrine is based upon a 3 in 1 concept
but to say none other than He who is He?
3 can never be described as a single He, can it?
Check the greek, hebrew or whatever language you want but can “He” be any other but “He”
Is God really He, He and He? The scripture says clearly “None other than “He”
We know it is easy to get around saying there is One God because you simply say One God 3 persons but how do you get around “He” being only One “He”?
Correctly argued.Trinitarians do not comprehend the significance of “first-person-singular” and “second-person-singular” and third-person-singular pronouns and nouns.
They argue God is not a person, he is a being comprised of three persons.
The trouble with that is there is no reference in the Hebrew or the Greek to a first-being-singular, because it is a nonsense argument. God shows he is a singular being, and a singular person. “I am the being” is in the singular Greek form and cannot be alterred by doctrines and creeds, because it is still there in the Greek. That leaves them with the only argument available to them, attack the Greek scholarship and degrees of the messenger.
Paladin said:
Quote Trinitarians do not comprehend the significance of “first-person-singular” and “second-person-singular” and third-person-singular pronouns and nouns. Paladin,
You have no right to talk. You translate personal pronouns as “it.” You're the pot calling the kettle “black.”Paladin said:
Quote God shows he is a singular being, and a singular person. No! God has revealed Himself as a plural unity.
Quote Let US make man in OUR image Paladin wrote:
Quote “I am the being” is in the singular Greek form and cannot be alterred by doctrines and creeds, because it is still there in the Greek. That leaves them with the only argument available to them, attack the Greek scholarship and degrees of the messenger. No one here attacks Greek scholarship. There is one here who tries to pass himself off as a Greek scholar though (I am referring to you).
Jesus also said “I am the being” as you put it,
John 8:23: “If you do not believe that I am [the being], you shall die in your sins.”
verse 28: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the being].”
verse 58: Truly I say you, before Abraham was I am [the being].
Who is going to “attack” the Geek scholarship now? You have dug a hole for yourself.
thinker
Paladin……….Amen brother, good Post, it amazes me how TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES, can't get it no matter how clear it is.
There is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD> Right out of Jesus' own mouth “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD.” . They preach Jesus as a GOD but don't really believe what He said. HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD., not two or three anythings. Your a breath of fresh air here brother. Please don't get discouraged here, have patience with us it will produce fruit, continue to let the Spirit have its perfect works, brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Paladin said:
Quote BESIDE JEHOVAH THERE IS NO ELOHIYM
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith JEHOVAH [the LORD] the King of Israel, and his redeemer JEHOVAH [the LORD] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Elohiym [God].Isaiah 44:6 is about Christ. Paladin failed to see that YHWH called Himself Israel's “goel” which means blood-relative redeemer. The Father was NOT Israel's blood relative. Therefore, Isaiah 44:6 is about Christ. Furthermore, YHWH said that He is the “First and the Last.” Jesus claimed that He Himself is the “First and the Last (Rev. 1:8, 17; 22:13).
Paladin said:
Quote TRINITARIAN: BUT SIR, WHAT ABOUT GENESIS 1:26? “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:”
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.Proverbs is personification for the wisdom of God. Please note that God's wisdom is identified as a “she.”
Quote Does not wisdom cry out and understanding lift up her voice?
Wisdom is spoken about in the feminine gender several times in Proverbs 8. It is merely poetic for the wisdom of God. Paladin attempts to read poetry into the a narrative which is written in prose. Okay Paladie, try exegeting Genesis 1:26, 27 within its own context. Here it is again,Quote And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness…. Then it says,
Quote So God created man in HIS own image Moses referred to God as both “US” and “HIM.” He also referred to the man and the woman as “THEM” and “HIM”,
Quote So God created man in His own image; in the image of God he created HIM; male and female He created THEM. Are not the man and the woman being viewed as a plural unity which God called by the singular “him” and also by the plural “them”? Yet bodhitharta said this is not possible. Bodhitharta has not made trinitarianism “disappear.” Neither has Paladin changed anything with his long winded treatise.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 14 2009,04:10) Paladin said: Quote Trinitarians do not comprehend the significance of “first-person-singular” and “second-person-singular” and third-person-singular pronouns and nouns. Paladin,
You have no right to talk. You translate personal pronouns as “it.” You're the pot calling the kettle “black.”Paladin said:
Quote God shows he is a singular being, and a singular person. No! God has revealed Himself as a plural unity.
Quote Let US make man in OUR image Paladin wrote:
Quote “I am the being” is in the singular Greek form and cannot be alterred by doctrines and creeds, because it is still there in the Greek. That leaves them with the only argument available to them, attack the Greek scholarship and degrees of the messenger. No one here attacks Greek scholarship. There is one here who tries to pass himself off as a Greek scholar though (I am referring to you).
Jesus also said “I am the being” as you put it,
John 8:23: “If you do not believe that I am [the being], you shall die in your sins.”
verse 28: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the being].”
verse 58: Truly I say you, before Abraham was I am [the being].
Who is going to “attack” the Geek scholarship now? You have dug a hole for yourself.
thinker
Reference please!Show me one post in which I translated a personal pronoun as “it.”
[quote=Paladin,June 14 2009,07:00][quote=thethinker,June 14 2009,04:10]Paladin said:
Quote Trinitarians do not comprehend the significance of “first-person-singular” and “second-person-singular” and third-person-singular pronouns and nouns. (thinker)
Paladin,
You have no right to talk. You translate personal pronouns as “it.” You're the pot calling the kettle “black.”(P) Reference please!
Show me one post in which I translated a personal pronoun as “it.”
Quote
(thinker)
Paladin said:[quote]God shows he is a singular being, and a singular person.(thinker)
No! God has revealed Himself as a plural unity.Let US make man in OUR image
(P) There is only one entity in the world that can possibly be described as a plural unity, and that entity is “contradiction.”
“Plural” MEANS more than one. “Unity” MEANS “a whole or totallity combining its parts into one.” Are you saying that trinity doctrine now teaches God is a combination of “PARTS?”
That would make Jehovah, his son Jesus Christ, and his Holy Spirit, PARTS of the one true God. Hmmmmm!!!! Don't remember reading THAT in scripture. Give me a moment here…….hhhmmmmm!!! Nope! The ONLY place I find THAT is in YOUR POST.
(thinker) Paladin wrote:
Quote “I am the being” is in the singular Greek form and cannot be alterred by doctrines and creeds, because it is still there in the Greek. That leaves them with the only argument available to them, attack the Greek scholarship and degrees of the messenger. (thinker) No one here attacks Greek scholarship. There is one here who tries to pass himself off as a Greek scholar though (I am referring to you).
(P) Nope! missed it again. Please show me the post in which I claimed scholarship about ANYTHING. ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A SCHOLAR TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE. It was written by ignorant and unlearned earthen vessels, for humble souls. The proud, the arrogant, and the scholar can only understand it by changing it. I have changed nothing. I only tried to go back to the original understanding of the earlier translators.
Want t'a see an attack on Greek scholarship?
Watch –(thinker)
Quote
Jesus also said “I am the being” as you put it,John 8:23: “If you do not believe that I am [the being], you shall die in your sins.”
verse 28: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the being].”
verse 58: Truly I say you, before Abraham was I am [the being].
Do you see it? That little “[the being]” that you see added to each verse. THAT's missing in the New testament. Wonder why “thinker” THINKS it should be there? Oh, right! He's a Greek scholar, and can tell us what SHOULD HAVE BEEN there.
(thinker)
Quote Jesus also said “I am the being” as you put it, John 8:23: “If you do not believe that I am [the being], you shall die in your sins.”
(P)John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not [oti egw eimi] that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
But you see thinker, “I” did not “put it” any way at all. I found it.
It is what is commonly known as “The SEPTUAGINT Old Testament.Exodus 3:14
And God spoke to Moses, saying, [EGW EIMI 'O WN] I AM THE BEING: and he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, THE BEING hath sent me to you.[Sept](thinker)
Quote
verse 28: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the being].”(P) John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know [oti egw eimi] that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Exodus 3:14
And God spoke to Moses, saying, [EGW EIMI 'O WN] I AM THE BEING: and he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, THE BEING hath sent me to you.[Sept](thinker)
Quote
verse 58: Truly I say you, before Abraham was I am [the being].(P)
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [egw eimi] I am.Exodus 3:14
And God spoke to Moses, saying, [EGW EIMI 'O WN] I AM THE BEING: and he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, THE BEING hath sent me to you.[Sept]So you think that the old testament “EGW EIMI 'O WN,” when reproduced in the New Testament, is “EGW EIMI?” Hmmmm!!!
Let me have a moment here.Nope! I don't think so. Is there a not-trinitarian scholar in the house? No wonder trinitarians think Jesus claimed to be God.
I certainly understand your position a little better now. Thank you for taking your precious time to make it clear for me.
(thinker)
Quote Who is going to “attack” the Geek scholarship now? You have dug a hole for yourself. You know, I think for once I agree with you? You most certainly have demonstrated your ability as a GEEK Scholar.
And talk about “digging a “hole” for yourself….”What we need however, is a GREEK scholar.
TRINITY POSITION
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God ['o wn] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 1:18 Theon oudeis ewraken pwpote monogenees theos o` wn eis ton kolpon tou patros ekeino exeegeesato
The same words ” 'o wn,” “the being” is used of Jesus, in John 1:18.REBUTTAL:
Did no one tell you? Did you not know? “I am the being” does not carry the same meaning as “God who is” because “I am the being” completes a thought, while “God who is” only begins an incomplete thought. The two uses of terminology are not equivalent.Did you know that there is one error common to all trinitarians, regarding the language of scripture? Should I tell you what it is? No? Well I'm going to post it, whether you ever see it or not.
God identifies himself using an expression in the Greek ['o wn] which is also applied to Jesus in John 1:18. Trinitarians see that and jump through hoops to make them mean “same identity,” i.e. ” = God.”
Did you know that makes several others “God” if that is the standard?
Did you know “o wn” is applied to “he that is of the earth, earthy?”
John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all:
he ['o wn] that is of the earth (Adam) is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven (Jesus) is above all.Did you know “o wn” is applied to “he that heareth God's words?” Will Trinitarians now try to make themselves God, claiming they are the only one's “hearing God's words?”
John 8:47 He ['o wn] that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Did you know that the witnesses to Lazarus' being raised from the dead were “o wn?” Are they God?
John 12:17 The people therefore ['o wn] that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.Did you know that “every one that is of the truth” is “o wn?”
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one ['o wn] that is of the truth heareth my voice.Now I shall try to help you see that just because similar language is used of God and Jesus does not make Jesus God.
Moses quotes God saying “I am” and Malachi prophesies of one, “Lord whom ye seek.” So if I find in scripture anyone saying “I am whom ye seek,” I should find God, right? It is quoting two famous old testament passages, which is the trinitarian standard for identification in the new testament.
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THE BEING: and he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, THE BEING hath sent me to you.[Sept]
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, WHOM YE SEEK, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Acts 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I AM HE WHOM YE SEEK: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
Now, applying the standard laid down on every trinitarian board in captivity, this should make Peter God. Is Peter God? Do you see an error in the standard? I thought not.
Oh, BTW, I make NO claims of “scholarship” whatsoever, English, Greek, Hebrew, Dutch, Tatalog, NOTHING! Not even GEEK! Does this mean I am no scholar? No! Does this mean I have no degree in languages? No! It means I make no claims of “scholarship.”
Paladin said:
Quote Show me one post in which I translated a personal pronoun as “it.” You're kidding right?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 14 2009,11:09) Paladin said: Quote Show me one post in which I translated a personal pronoun as “it.” You're kidding right?
thinker
Thought so.Can't do it.
Paladin said:
Quote Plural” MEANS more than one. “Unity” MEANS “a whole or totallity combining its parts into one.” Are you saying that trinity doctrine now teaches God is a combination of “PARTS?” That would make Jehovah, his son Jesus Christ, and his Holy Spirit, PARTS of the one true God. Hmmmmm!!!! Don't remember reading THAT in scripture. Give me a moment here…….hhhmmmmm!!! Nope! The ONLY place I find THAT is in YOUR POST.
Paladin,
You have disproven nothing! I have given you the man and the woman as an example. Moses called the man and the woman him and them. You cannot explain this away with all your fake knowledge.Moses said,
Quote And God made man in His own image. In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them Another example can be seen from the man who was possessed with an unclean spirit. The unclean spirit is plural and simply referred to as “him“,
Quote Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the gadarenes. And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit….For He [Jesus] said to him,”Come out of the man unclean spirit!” Then he asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered saying, “My name is Legion: for we are MANY.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country….So all the demons begged Him saying, “Send us into the herd of swine” (Mark 5:19) This is a clear example that a company of demons may be referred to simply as “him.” Jesus said to him, “Come out of the man.” Jesus asked him, “What is your name.” The pronoun “your” is singular. The evil spirit answered saying “My name is Legion for we are many.”
Okay, I have given Genesis 1:26 where God said, “Let us make man in our image. Then it says that God made man in his own image. I have also given the man and the woman. Together they made up one entity and Moses referred to them as “them” and “him.” Now I have given an evil spirit (singular) that was named “Legion” for he was many. And I have shown that the many are referred to simply as “him.” Yet bodhitharta says that this is not possible. What Bible are you guys reading?
There is more too. I have just started. It is very evident that bodhitharta has failed to deal trinitarianism a “death blow.” These arguments were going on long before bodhitharta came and trinitarianism has yet to “disappear.” Trinitarianism remains the dominating Theology today because it is in accord to Hebrew thought and culture.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 14 2009,12:03) Paladin said: Quote Plural” MEANS more than one. “Unity” MEANS “a whole or totallity combining its parts into one.” Are you saying that trinity doctrine now teaches God is a combination of “PARTS?” That would make Jehovah, his son Jesus Christ, and his Holy Spirit, PARTS of the one true God. Hmmmmm!!!! Don't remember reading THAT in scripture. Give me a moment here…….hhhmmmmm!!! Nope! The ONLY place I find THAT is in YOUR POST.
Moses said,
Quote And God made man in His own image. In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them Another example can be seen from the man who was possessed with an unclean spirit. The unclean spirit is plural and simply referred to as “him“,
Quote Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the gadarenes. And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit….For He [Jesus] said to him,”Come out of the man unclean spirit!” Then he asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered saying, “My name is Legion: for we are MANY.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country….So all the demons begged Him saying, “Send us into the herd of swine” (Mark 5:19) This is a clear example that a company of demons may be referred to simply as “him.” Jesus said to him, “Come out of the man.” Jesus asked him, “What is your name.” The pronoun “your” is singular. The evil spirit answered saying “My name is Legion for we are many.”
Okay, I have given Genesis 1:26 where God said, “Let us make man in our image. Then it says that God made man in his own image. I have also given the man and the woman. Together they made up one entity and Moses referred to them as “them” and “him.” Now I have given an evil spirit (singular) that was named “Legion” for he was many. And I have shown that the many are referred to simply as “him.” Yet bodhitharta says that this is not possible. What Bible are you guys reading?
There is more too. I have just started. It is very evident that bodhitharta has failed to deal trinitarianism a “death blow.” These arguments were going on long before bodhitharta came and trinitarianism has yet to “disappear.” Trinitarianism remains the dominating Theology today because it is in accord to Hebrew thought and culture.
thinker
Quote Moses called the man and the woman him and them. You cannot explain this away with all your fake knowledge. oooohhh!!! Getting testy? If it is “knowledge” how is it “fake?”
God called Adam and Eve “MAN” because it is a reference to their species. I do not explain anything “away.” I might upon occasion give an explanation for why something is the way it is, but I do not “explain away” anything.
Male and female created he THEM, is correct.
Your argument is with the Hebrew “echad” which is 538 times, and without exception, references “one,” with uses rangeing from cardinal, Ordinal, selection (either,or) singular/plural differentian, and ALWAYS limits the thing under consideration, to being understood as singular in nature.
The controversy heats up when Adams rib, “echad” in number, becomes “echad” flesh, which is comprised of TWO persons. But the controversy could easily be deflated by understanding the “one flesh” to be speaking of a particular circumstance; i.e. the UNION of the two into a single unit of marriage. No “three-way” for instance.
And much like Abraham's ONLY son Isaac (the younger of two) so also the “oneness” of flesh of the married couple DOES NOT relate to the number of persons, but the number of relationships. And that is precisely where it gets lost. Some fail to differentiate between “persons” and
“relationships.”Enter yet another source of “discovery;” When spies returned from the land of Canaan, [Num 13] carrying “echad” cluster, supported upon a pole, carried between two men, because of the enormity of the cluster; some have argued that this is representative of a “multiple personality of God.” “One cluster, many grapes” is the thinking.
Of course, it would have to be limited to one cluster “three” grapes to hold any validity. But that is not the case. and the argument is faulted anyway. For God has already told us he is “one” in number. so this “figurative” misunderstanding” won't change that.
Echad is proof that God is singular, and “one,” but for further “proof” I would suggest going into the Greek of the Septuagint. “ego hiemi” – “I” – (first-person-singular) Am. Any “multiplicity” in the numerical value applied to God, is an interpolation from the New Testament, and extrapolated into doctrine, from a different age that that in which it was written.
Now, Let's see YOU explain why all these “spirits” are neuter, and all are called “he” by the translators. Pronouns have to agree with their antecedents in GENDER and number.
Matthew 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Paladin said:
Quote God called Adam and Eve “MAN” because it is a reference to their species. But the man and woman together were still called “him” by Moses. The two persons were still called “him.” So Bodhitharta must fine another line of reasoning because he said that God cannot be referred to as “him” if He exists as more than one person. Bodhitharta's argument does no damage at all to trinitarianism much less a “death blow.”
Paladin said:
Quote Your argument is with the Hebrew “echad” which is 538 times, and without exception, references “one,” with uses rangeing from cardinal, Ordinal, selection (either,or) singular/plural differentian, and ALWAYS limits the thing under consideration, to being understood as singular in nature. Please note that part of your statement I highlighted in bold. You said that “echad…ALWAYS limits the thing under consideration, to being understood as singular in nature.” Trinitarians believe that the three Persons of the Godhead are ssingular in nature. The man and the woman were two distinct persons but one humanity singular in nature.
Paladin said:
Quote Echad is proof that God is singular, and “one,” but for further “proof” I would suggest going into the Greek of the Septuagint. “ego hiemi” – “I” – (first-person-singular) Am. Any “multiplicity” in the numerical value applied to God, is an interpolation from the New Testament, and extrapolated into doctrine, from a different age that that in which it was written. My reply is two-fold:
1. I have already shown that Jesus claimed to be the “I Am” (ego Eimi),
*John 8:24: “For if you do not believe that I am (ego eimi) you shall die in your sins.”
*verse 28: “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am (ego eimi).”
*verse 58: “Truly I say to you, before Abraham was I am (ego eimi).
2. Your narrow view of “echad” makes Christ a liar when He claimed to be the “good shepherd.”
*Psalm 23:1 “YHWH is my shepherd….”
*Exekiel 37:24: “And there shall be one (echad) shepherd over them….”
*John 10:11: “I am the good shepherd….”
There it is! David said that YHWH is the shepherd, Ezekiel says that there is one (echad) shepherd, and Christ claimed that He was the good shepherd.
WAS CHRIST A LIAR?
According to James Strong the Hebrew “echad” means “united.” Therefore, YHWH and Christ are one united shepherd or else Christ is a liar. And if they may be one united shepherd then they may be one united God.
More on “echad” below,
Quote This word occurs 960 times as a noun, adjective or adverb, as a cardinal or ordinal number, often used in a distributive sense, It is closely identified with yahad “to be united and with rosh “first head”….It stresses unity while RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Moody Press, p., 30) Note that “echad” is closely identified with two words which stress unity while recognizing diversity. Why do you not present all the information on “echad”? Your failure to recognize this makes Christ a liar as I said for Christ said that He Himself is the good shepherd. But Ezekiel says that there is only one shepherd.
These facts contradict your assertion that echad “ALWAYS limits the thing under consideration, to being understood as singular in nature.” It often stresses unity in diversity or else Christ had no business claiming to be the good shepherd.
WAS CHRIST CLAIMING TO BE A SHEPHERD IN ADDITION TO GOD?
Paladin said:
Quote Now, Let's see YOU explain why all these “spirits” are neuter, and all are called “he” by the translators. Pronouns have to agree with their antecedents in GENDER and number. Matthew 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
The pronouns should agree with the noun in gender as you say. This rule applies to all the verses you give above. But in the Mark passage Jesus is speaking to the man himself. Therefore, the rendering of “him” is appropriate. The Geneva Bible which you trust translates the same way in the Mark passage. You said that it was a “credible” translation in itS own generation.
Now answer my original point before giving me another question. Bodhitharta says that God cannot be called by “him” if He is more than one person. Yet the many are called “him” in Mark 9. Answer please.
thinker
Hi TT,
You cannot add man's trinity ideas to resolve scriptures that are confusing to you.
God is not a man and His words are precious.
Those of men are folly.Quote (thethinker @ June 13 2009,20:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 13 2009,14:06) Mark 12 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Read carefully and the trinity doctrine will disappear, First we see for there is one God and then it says there is none other but He,
The key is the word He
The trinitarian doctrine is based upon a 3 in 1 concept
but to say none other than He who is He?
3 can never be described as a single He, can it?
Check the greek, hebrew or whatever language you want but can “He” be any other but “He”
Is God really He, He and He? The scripture says clearly “None other than “He”
We know it is easy to get around saying there is One God because you simply say One God 3 persons but how do you get around “He” being only One “He”?
Hi bd,This is not a new argument. Trinitarians have answered this on this board before. Please see the “Elohim” thread. Read Genesis 1:26-27,
Quote And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness…. Then it says,
Quote So God created man in HIS own image Moses referred to God as both “US” and “HIM.” He referred to the man and the woman together as “HIM” also,
Quote So God created man in His own image; in the image of God he created HIM; male and female He created THEM. So the trinity doctrine will disappear eh? Not quite. All you did was prove that the debate goes on. Anti-trinitarians do not comprehend the concept of plural unity. The man and the woman together constituted a plural unity which Moses called “him.” God has always existed as a community within Himself.
No “final blow” to Trinitarianism has happened. Come up with something new my good friend
thinker
You are incorrect the scripture saysGenesis 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.He referred to the man and woman together as them.
I see the problem here you were not sure how the semicolon is used.
That is one of the problem people have when studying the bible, they will often overlook conjunctions such as “and” “but” or “or” and such things like colons and semicolons.
Really it is the Final Blow.
bodhitharta said:
Quote You are incorrect the scripture says Genesis 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.He referred to the man and woman together as them.
I see the problem here you were not sure how the semicolon is used.
No sir. The online Hebrew-English Interlinear establishes my view. There are no semi-colons or such punctuations in the original. In verse 26 it literally says ,
Quote We shall make Adam in the image of us and THEY shall sway in the fish of the sea. Note that verse 26 refers to Adam in the singular and then says “they” shall sway over the fish of the sea.
Then verse 27,
Quote And he is creating Elohim Adam in the image of Him in the image of Elohim he created him male and female he created them http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen1.pdf
So in verse 26 the man and the woman together were called “Adam” (singular). And God said “Let them have dominion….” Then in verse 27 Moses said that God created Adam (him) and male and female He created them.
bodhitharta said:
Quote That is one of the problem people have when studying the bible, they will often overlook conjunctions such as “and” “but” or “or” and such things like colons and semicolons. I don't have that problem. I go right to the original languages which have no punctuations.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Really it is the Final Blow. Then visit the Hebrew-English Interlinear on verse 26,
Quote We shall make Adam in the image of us and THEY shall sway in the fish of the sea…. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen1.pdf
Can't you see it? God referred to Himself both in the singular and the plural. Then He referred to man (Adam) both in the singular and the plural. So we are a plurality of persons that constitute ONE entity just as God is. We are in His image.
No death blow yet. In fact, the online Interlinear causes you to suffer a set back. I have shown that a plurality of persons may be referred to as “him.” The time has past for you to cast off your western presuppositions.
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
