The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

scripture says “God is (NOT) a man that He should repent, nor the Son of Man that He should lie. Jesus also said God was Spirit, and said he was not a Spirit, but flesh and bone even after He was resurected. I know nothing is impossible with GOD but i beleve Jesus was defenetly not God Himself, There are other reasons also.

Gene,
I have already said that God was unchangeable in reference to a word or promise spoken. Are you affirming what I said?
You're right that God is spirit. But spirit has form and body too. Everything has body. Jesus said to the Jews,

Quote

You have neither heard His voice or seen His form John 5:27

Laurel wrote:

Quote

Laurel,
You left out the name “goel” which means “blood relative”. YHWH said to Israel,

Quote

“I am YHWH, your blood relative redeemer….”

Jesus' was the only blood relative that fits this bill. He came from the line of David. Therefore, He was Israel's blood relative. He redeemed them from their sins. Therefore, He was Israel's redeemer.

Therefore, He was YHWH because YHWH said, “I am your blood relative-redeemer. No rocket science degree needed to figure this out.

thinker

January 25, 2009 at 5:58 pm#119004

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2009,15:13)

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

GB,
Not quite
Numbers 23:19[ylt]
19God [is] not a man — and lieth, And a son of man — and repenteth! Hath He said — and doth He not do [it]? And spoken — and doth He not confirm it?

It does not speak of THE son of man, Jesus.
Of course MAN can also be read ADAM

January 25, 2009 at 6:16 pm#119006

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 25 2009,09:43)

Martian said:

Quote

According to the Ancient Hebrew Research Center and Strings the Word in Ex 4:3&4 is not YHWH but rather HWH Which means breath. To the Hebrew culture the breath represented the character of someone or something. A generic verb with a wide application meaning to exist or be.
Each Hebrew name is a word with meaning. The word HWH means to exist and when the prefix Y meaning “he” is added it means He exists.

Martian,
Please see the online Hebrew-English Interlinear at
http://www.scripture4all.org?/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

It literally reads thus: “I shall become who I am becoming“.

So I will need for you to provide the link to your source so I can see for myself all that is said in its context. I am NOT questioning your honesty by this request.

Martian said:

Quote

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and God became a man.
Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life?

This is simple. By God's becoming a man I know that He can really empathize with me in my temptations and my struggles because He Himself lived among us. Again, the Scripture indicates that God can become what He wants to become. I believe that those who think not presuppose that God is too transcendant to become like us.

Would you please provide a statement within its context that proves that God cannot change? As I have said already, the Scriptures do NOT say that God cannot change in all categories and in all ways conceivable. It simply says that He cannot change in reference to a word or promise that He has spoken.

thinker

Let me begin by addressing your concept of God appearing/becoming a human. Please read the following excerpt from The Ancient Hebrew Research Center found at http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html
Greek thought describes objects in relation to its appearance. Hebrew thought describes objects in relation to its function.
A deer and an oak are two very different objects and we would never describe them in the same way with our Greek form of descriptions. The Hebrew word for both of these objects is (ayil) because the functional description of these two objects are identical to the ancient Hebrews, therefore, the same Hebrew word is used for both. The Hebraic definition of is “a strong leader”.
A deer stag is one of the most powerful animals of the forest and is seen as “a strong leader” among the other animals of the forest. Also the oak tree's wood is very hard compared to other trees such as the pine which is soft and is seen as a “strong leader” among the trees of the forest.
Notice the two different translations of the Hebrew word in Psalms 29.9. The NASB and KJV translates it as “The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve” while the NIV translates it as “The voice of the LORD twists the oaks”. The literal translation of this verse in Hebrew thought would be; “The voice of the LORD makes the strong leaders turn”.
When translating the Hebrew into English, the translator must give a Greek description to this word which is why we have two different ways of translating this verse. This same word is also translated as a “ruler” in 2 Kings 24.15, who is a man who is a strong leader.
Another example of Greek thought would be the following description of a common pencil: “it is yellow and about 8 inches long”. A Hebrew description of the pencil would be related to its function such as “I write words with it”. Notice that the Hebrew description uses the verb “write” while the Greek description uses the adjectives “yellow” and “long”. Because of Hebrew's form of functional descriptions, verbs are used much more frequently then adjectives.

End quote –

All of God’s names and titles depict a function or character trait. While it is true that YHWH can at times mean to become this is a matter of function not appearance. In other words it is not that YHWH would appear as a man, but that a man would function with the same character as YHWH. This is very clearly shown in Isa 9:6. In this passage the term “name” is the Hebrew word “shem” which literally means character or reputation. This understanding can be found at http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_name.html

6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His CHARACTER (name) will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness

Notice also the following –
John 10
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?

In the above verse Jesus uses what is called a remez. It is a common tactic among rabbis in which a portion of scripture is quoted and those that are listening will understand it in it’s complete context. The scripture is Psalm 82 in which YHWH is correcting the leaders of Israel for not acting/functioning as God’s toward the people. They were not acting within the character of God.
The Pharisees wanted to stone Christ because He was functioning as God, within the character of God. They were not, and for this reason they hated him.

I cannot just show you a miniscule paragraph from a reference work to explain these truths. You must have an understanding of the Hebrew culture and it’s effect on their language. You have spoken correctly (in part) that YHWH is unchanging in his promises. His promises are a direct reflection of his function and consequently a reflection of His character. For YHWH to change from who He is to a man, his function/character would have to be altered. He would need to change from immortal to mortal with all the attributes of mortal man, hunger fear, death ect. From untemptable to temptable. These changes are completely contrary to multitudes of scriptures.

AS I have posted previously, Your conclusions open up all kinds of questions about Jesus’ ability to be an example for us. With Jesus as a normal man born of a woman there is no question as to his perfect example for us. We can take great hope because our brother that is made just like us did it and is the forerunner for us. We can do it because he did it.
If Jesus had a pre-existence, there will always
be the question as to if (and how much) His pre-existence effected his ability to accomplish his walk with God.
Those that believe his pre-existence can say all they want that it had no effect, but those answers are based on speculation and not on fact/scripture. This belief always leads back to a mystery that cannot be answered. Who Jesus is and how he did what he did is paramount to the gospel. I cannot find it acceptable that the character of God would allow his most important message to be open to speculation and question.

Jesus was God in the sense that He functioned as God. This is the way in which the Hebrew people thought. In this same way we are to be as God in our character. For this reason Christ existed. To show us, by example, what it is to have the character of God in a human being.

January 25, 2009 at 7:01 pm#119012

Participant

Good friends,

I'll be back tomorrow energized. I'm too pooped to post today

Blessings,
thinker

January 25, 2009 at 7:57 pm#119028

Lightenup

Participant

Martian,
You asked:

Quote

How does a pre-existent Christ make him a more viable example for me?
How does a pre-existent Christ help me to fulfill the plan of God in my life?

Let me begin to answer you with a question. If you wanted to learn about person “A” from someone other than person “A” himself and you had two possible people to learn from, person “B” or person “C” which one could explain person “A” better:
Person “B” is just like you and has a relationship with person “A” but never lived with him or walked with him through his magnificent performances in history.
Person “C” has a relationship with person “A” and lived with him and walked with him side by side through his magnificence performances and even helped him perform some of those magnificent performances even if he was just a stage-hand.

Wouldn't you agree that person “C” would be a better choice of explaining who person “A” is to you?

Or how about this:
If you wanted to learn how to play piano and you had two choices of teachers, both great at teaching and playing piano but one trained with the masters over many decades and the other had one teacher that was a great piano player but wasn't much older than himself, which one could give you a fuller and richer understanding of the art of playing the piano. Wouldn't you pick the one that trained with the masters.

And your other question, “How does a pre-existent Christ help you fulfill the plan of God in your life?” A pre-existent Christ is a fuller and richer teacher, mentor, example for you because He walked with the Master, served with the Master and had a Father/Son relationship with the Master from the beginning of time. After that the Master sends him and he teaches you how to fulfill the plan of the Master in your life.

The pre-existent Christ knows the Father in a way that we will never know, as His firstborn from the beginning of all creation. We can learn more from the pre-existent Christ because of His greater intimacy with the Father. The pre-existent Christ has a longer and more intimate relationship with the Father than a non-pre-existent Christ thus making the pre-existent Christ a better one to explain the Father to us so that we can become more like Christ and thus become more like the Father.

You do know that one of Christ's functions was to explain the Father, don't you?

John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

January 25, 2009 at 8:03 pm#119029

Participant

Hi martian,
You do show us the influence of hebrew understandings on what is written but then demand scripture meets some sort of greek logic standard of practicality to be accepted as truth. The ways of God are greater than those of men. It never was all about us or all for us and so if it does all fit in our limited grasp of wisdom then patently our assumed concepts are shallow and untrue.

January 25, 2009 at 10:03 pm#119047

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2009,06:57)

Martian,
You asked:

Quote

How does a pre-existent Christ make him a more viable example for me?
How does a pre-existent Christ help me to fulfill the plan of God in my life?

Wouldn't you agree that person “C” would be a better choice of explaining who person “A” is to you?

You do know that one of Christ's functions was to explain the Father, don't you?

John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

Wouldn't you agree that person “C” would be a better choice of explaining who person “A” is to you?

Reply –
Except we are to learn from Christ by way of his example.
If what you say is true then Christ would have to retain his experiences of his pre-existence into his life on Earth. This would have TREMENDOUS effect on the manner in which he overcame and walked with God. He could never be tempted like other men because He has billions of years living with God and exercising God’s power. Nothing that He did on this Earth would be an example for us because everything He did would be influenced by the pre-existence. Your answer just thru out any possibility to use Christ as our example.

You say-
Or how about this:
If you wanted to learn how to play piano and you had two choices of teachers, both great at teaching and playing piano but one trained with the masters over many decades and the other had one teacher that was a great piano player but wasn't much older than himself, which one could give you a fuller and richer understanding of the art of playing the piano. Wouldn't you pick the one that trained with the masters.

Reply –
You leave out a very important part. I would want to be trained by the one who learned in the same way as I must learn. If He learned his craft in a way that is impossible for me to learn, how is he going to teach me?

Wrong again —
If what you say is true, Jesus had a father/son relationship in a way that we are not capable of having. How can that be an example for us?

Reply –
Again you deny the example of Christ. Everytime you point out an advantage that Christ has you point to a disadvantage given us.
Christ prayed that we would be one even as He and His Father are one. That we would be one with them. How can we do that if Christ oneness is predicated upon some prior life?

Obviously you believe that Christ prior life had effect on His Earthly life.
Was His ability to overcome temptation predicated on this prior life? How does that give me hope to overcome temptation. I did not have the prior life.
Was His ability to overcome sickness in himself and others predicated on this prior life? How does that help me overcome sickness? I did not have the prior life.
Was His faith that His father resurrect Him from the grave predicated on this prior life? How does that give me hope for my resurrection? I did not have billions of years in intimate contact with God to build my faith.

You have made every bit of the gospel dysfunctional.

Everything that you have said further denies Christ as our example. You do know Christ is our example don’t you?

You do know that Christ was to show forth what it is like to have the character of YHWH in a human do you not? This is done so that we might have an example to follow as to how to have the character of YHWH built in us. If the character of YHWH was built in Christ in any other way then what is possible and available for us then using Christ as an example is invalid.

In addition you bring into the question the character of YHWH. Our Father tells us to be like Christ and yet He makes being like Christ a completely unattainable goal. You conclusions do not depict the character of the Father as a righteous judge of all the Earth.

What you have, my friend, is a philosophy that you plug script
ure into instead of a living functional gospel. You do not have a gospel that actually works. You do not have a Christ that gives hope and is a viable example the rest of humanity can follow. Under your philosophy Christianity would have to be redefined. It could no longer be defined followers of Christ since the afore mentioned philosophy makes that impossible.

January 25, 2009 at 10:09 pm#119048

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2009,07:03)

So you do not believe that the gospel taught from scripture should be practical? If you do not want a gospel that actually does something then you fall into the category of the things that have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. i.e. a philosophy.

January 25, 2009 at 10:10 pm#119049

Participant

OK, I have been entertained enough for today. Catch you all later.

January 25, 2009 at 10:11 pm#119050

Participant

Hi Martian,
I grew up with a catholic book called “The imitation of Christ” extolling our need to walk in his steps.

I now know it was a futile exercise to consider attempting in my strength to do what he did in his Father's anointing.

He revealed the nature of God and did the works of God because God was in him.

We too are to produce fruit and that fruit is not of ourselves but fruit of the Spirit.[gal5]

January 25, 2009 at 10:26 pm#119051

Lightenup

Participant

Nick,
So true! AMEN
LU

January 25, 2009 at 10:31 pm#119052

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2009,09:11)

Hi Martian,
I grew up with a catholic book called “The imitation of Christ” extolling our need to walk in his steps.

I now know it was a futile exercise to consider attempting in my strength to do what he did in his Father's anointing.

He revealed the nature of God and did the works of God because God was in him.

We too are to produce fruit and that fruit is not of ourselves but fruit of the Spirit.[gal5]

I never said in our own strength and U wish you would stop accusing me of that belief. It is getting a bit old.

Even as Christ continually yielded to the anointing and leading of His Father so must we. We must cooperate with God. Christ as our complete example shows us the results of that cooperation. That result gives us hope that we too can accomplish what he did.

January 25, 2009 at 10:38 pm#119054

Participant

Thank you Martian,
So having been washed we must seek that anointing[lk11] and let that anointing lead us[gal5]

January 25, 2009 at 10:57 pm#119056

Lightenup

Participant

Martian,
You seem to be completely hung up on the false concept that you cannot be like Christ if He had an advantage over you. Many here have given you examples of how a leader is better for you if he had advantages whether it be more training, more education, better parents, the right friends, the better homelife, etc. the list could go on and on…those that say they can't do this or that because they didn't have this or that like so and so are just coming up with excuses. Christ did what He did because He believed his Father and obeyed Him by the power of the Holy Spirit within Him from His beginning. That is something we all have the opportunity to do which leads to unity in love and purpose.

We can be united in Him no matter our background, no matter our advantages. We are without excuse.

You sound like an adopted child that says, “I can't be like the good brother or ever feel like part of this family because I'm adopted and my brother is not.” Adopted children will never be biological children of the family but that doesn't make them less than part of the family, does it. Good parents still give them love and protection and the same inheritance, etc. So, I believe that if you can't be like the biological Son in the way He believes the Father and obeys the Father because you are only adopted then you are letting excuses stand in your way instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to live and to work in you.

You can never be like Him on your own strength, true, nobody will be. He relied on what He was given from the Father and we need to also!

God never said that you need to become a biological son, that would be unfair because that would be impossible. He did say that we could be adopted sons though! Allelujah!

January 26, 2009 at 3:46 am#119116

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (martian @ Jan. 25 2009,05:17)

Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life?

I think this is a non-question.

How does Jesus begin a Jew help me a Gentile be more like him?

That too is a non-irrelevant question. The premise or foundation of your thinking shouldn't be “how does this help me”. It should me more like “how do I change to be more like him”.

We are able to be like him, because he overcame death and the devil and now we can have the same Spirit that he had because we are cleansed of all our sin. Could you have done that if you lived pre-2000 years ago? If the answer is no, then Christ is obviously different in that aspect at least.

Him coming in the flesh was to become a man. But he obviously was no ordinary man. For a start he had a mission that no other man had, and he had a conception that was different. Yes there are similarities, in that he was born of a woman like we are. But he was also different, and he has given us the power to be like him. Not in our own fleshly strength but by the same Spirit that indwelt him.

January 26, 2009 at 7:17 am#119127

david

Participant

Quote

Please see the online Hebrew-English Interlinear at
http://www.scripture4all.org?/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

It literally reads thus: “I shall become who I am becoming”.

True, Gr., E·go′ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Lat., e′go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.” ’Eh·yeh′ comes from the Heb. verb ha·yah′, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh·yeh′ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others.

January 26, 2009 at 7:32 am#119131

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2009,18:17)

Quote

Please see the online Hebrew-English Interlinear at
http://www.scripture4all.org?/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

It literally reads thus: “I shall become who I am becoming”.

AMEN!!

thinker

January 26, 2009 at 8:19 am#119134