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Martian said:
Quote Rather then having a clear example with no loopholes a pre-existent Christ brings everything he did into speculation. It makes our possibility to follow him a matter of guesswork.
Did Jesus overcome sin because he had a pre-
existent life or not?
The temptation of Jesus' was real because He had a real human body and therefore His overcoming sin was real. God took the form of a man in old testament times without actually bcoming a man. Yet God was still able to be molested by homosexual men. God's pre-existence didn't exempt Him.Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. So the greater question is this: Is God so transcendant because He is pre-existent that He cannot take human form and be subjected to like passions as us?
Is God limited because He is pre-existent? Answer: Of course not.
“Glorify Me with the glory I HAD with thee before the world was” (John 17:`5).
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,17:13) Hi Marty,
The Son of God showed great humility, you are right Marty. Maybe one day we will all see just how much He has humbled himself and we will be truly broken before Him.
LU
Hi LU:We've already seen how much he humbled himself through the scriptures such as washing the disciples feet, for example, and let me just add that if the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and pointing to Jesus as the example for us to follow then it would mean that we would have had to seen this through the life that he lived on earth.
If in fact he pre-existed, you and I certainly did not witness any of his life prior to his being born into this world.
Marty
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2009,08:46) Hi Martian,
Of course all the prophets and apostles were only like to God by the anointing of His Spirit and the grace to enable the development of good fruit. Jesus was different as he was filled with the fulness of that spirit such as it could be said God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.
Reconciling us to himself was a product of his mantle as the Messiah.
Being filled with God hep him in that and his personal ability to walk with God In the same way we are filled with God to help us.14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.Hi:
Humility:
Quote Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 24 2009,09:10) Martian said: Quote Rather then having a clear example with no loopholes a pre-existent Christ brings everything he did into speculation. It makes our possibility to follow him a matter of guesswork.
Did Jesus overcome sin because he had a pre-
existent life or not?
The temptation of Jesus' was real because He had a real human body and therefore His overcoming sin was real. God took the form of a man in old testament times without actually bcoming a man. Yet God was still able to be molested by homosexual men. God's pre-existence didn't exempt Him.Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. So the greater question is this: Is God so transcendant because He is pre-existent that He cannot take human form and be subjected to like passions as us?
Is God limited because He is pre-existent? Answer: Of course not.
“Glorify Me with the glory I HAD with thee before the world was” (John 17:`5).
thinker
Actually God said YHWH which means He existsQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,14:16) Martian,
Good question! Here is some verses answering your question:2 Tim 3:14-4:5
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.2 Timothy 4
4:1 “Preach the Word”
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NASUCol 3:12-17
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
NASUThe scripture does many things for us as mentioned in the above verses. It also gives us hope, it is a light to our path, it is truth about God, when we hide it in our heart it helps keep us from sin, etc.
LU
Martian,
The post I have quoted above was in response to your question “what is the purpose of scripture.” I hadn't read your next two posts at the time I was busy writing the answer to that. Sorry, I should have quoted your question. I was not side stepping anything, look at the time of your posts and mine. I wasn't aware of your other questions.For now, I am calling in a night as well.
LUthinker said:
Quote Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. Marty replied:
Quote Actually God said YHWH which means He exists Greetings Marty,
It is unfortunate that our translations render “YHWH” as simple existence. It actually should be rendered “I shall become what I shall become”. The expression “YHWH” is used several times in Exodus and it is rendered to become. I offer two examples for you to consider:4:3, “And he cast it on the ground and it became a serpent”.
4:4, “And he reached out his hand and it became a rod again”.These examples of the word YHWH cannot mean simple existence. The rod did not “exist” when it was cast down. It became a serpent and vise versa. What comfort would it have been to the Israelites for God to say to them “I exist” after 400 years of hard bondage? It would have been altogether meaningless to them. But if God said “I shall become what I shall become” then that would have meant something.
Okay, if a rod can become a serpent and then become a rod again, then God can become a man. And if water can become blood (chap7), then God can become whatever He wants to become. He said, “I shall become what I shall become”.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2009,17:07) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,14:16) Martian,
Good question! Here is some verses answering your question:2 Tim 3:14-4:5
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.2 Timothy 4
4:1 “Preach the Word”
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NASUCol 3:12-17
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
NASUThe scripture does many things for us as mentioned in the above verses. It also gives us hope, it is a light to our path, it is truth about God, when we hide it in our heart it helps keep us from sin, etc.
LU
Martian,
The post I have quoted above was in response to your question “what is the purpose of scripture.” I hadn't read your next two posts at the time I was busy writing the answer to that. Sorry, I should have quoted your question. I was not side stepping anything, look at the time of your posts and mine. I wasn't aware of your other questions.For now, I am calling in a night as well.
LU
Apology excepted I await your next response to the curent questions.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 24 2009,20:33) thinker said: Quote Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. Marty replied:
Quote Actually God said YHWH which means He exists Greetings Marty,
It is unfortunate that our translations render “YHWH” as simple existence. It actually should be rendered “I shall become what I shall become”. The expression “YHWH” is used several times in Exodus and it is rendered to become. I offer two examples for you to consider:4:3, “And he cast it on the ground and it became a serpent”.
4:4, “And he reached out his hand and it became a rod again”.These examples of the word YHWH cannot mean simple existence. The rod did not “exist” when it was cast down. It became a serpent and vise versa. What comfort would it have been to the Israelites for God to say to them “I exist” after 400 years of hard bondage? It would have been altogether meaningless to them. But if God said “I shall become what I shall become” then that would have meant something.
Okay, if a rod can become a serpent and then become a rod again, then God can become a man. And if water can become blood (chap7), then God can become whatever He wants to become. He said, “I shall become what I shall become”.
thinker
Actually there is one thing God cannot do. That is stop being God. He is unchangable.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2009,17:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,17:13) Hi Marty,
The Son of God showed great humility, you are right Marty. Maybe one day we will all see just how much He has humbled himself and we will be truly broken before Him.
LU
Hi LU:We've already seen how much he humbled himself through the scriptures such as washing the disciples feet, for example, and let me just add that if the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and pointing to Jesus as the example for us to follow then it would mean that we would have had to seen this through the life that he lived on earth.
If in fact he pre-existed, you and I certainly did not witness any of his life prior to his being born into this world.
Marty
Hi Marty,
Do we need to witness His life for it to have existed? No. If we did not witness His life, that does not mean that it didn't exist.This is an intriguing passage in Isaiah:
Isa 48:12-16
12 Deliverance Promised
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUIt appears that the Lord GOD has sent someone that founded the earth and the Lord GOD also sent His Spirit. That same someone was there from the beginning, from the first and that same someone spoke and not in secret either.
No who could that someone be? Let's look at Hebrews for some insight:
Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Marty said:
Quote Actually there is one thing God cannot do. That is stop being God. He is unchangable. Greetings Marty,
Please give a Scripture reference that says that God is unchangeable. I have found none whatsoever. The Scriptures declare that His PROMISES are unchangeable.I noticed that you did not reply to my treatment of “YHWH” as meaning “shall become”. Why?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 25 2009,04:04) Marty said: Quote Actually there is one thing God cannot do. That is stop being God. He is unchangable. Greetings Marty,
Please give a Scripture reference that says that God is unchangeable. I have found none whatsoever. The Scriptures declare that His PROMISES are unchangeable.I noticed that you did not reply to my treatment of “YHWH” as meaning “shall become”. Why?
thinker
Mal 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not.I will get to the name YHWH in a bit. Believe me you have not stumped me in the least.
thinker said:
Quote Greetings Marty,
Please give a Scripture reference that says that God is unchangeable. I have found none whatsoever. The Scriptures declare that His PROMISES are unchangeable.I noticed that you did not reply to my treatment of “YHWH” as meaning “shall become”. Why?
Marty replied:
Quote Mal 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not. I will get to the name YHWH in a bit. Believe me you have not stumped me in the least.
Greetings again Marty,
Please look at Mal. 3:6 in it context,Quote “For I am the Lord, I change not: Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob”. God said “I change not” in reply to the sin of His people. So the expression “you are not consumed” defines what God meant by His statement “I change not”. Therefore, it is specifically His promises are unchangeable. God did not consume them because He was unchangeable in reference to the promises He spoke.
I will re-state my question: Please provide a statement by God within its context that asserts that He is unchangeable in the sense you say. God said, “I shall become what I shall become”. God fulfilled this in keeping with the unchangeable PROMISE He spoke. Thus, He became a man.
Blessings, thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 24 2009,20:33) thinker said: Quote Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. Marty replied:
Quote Actually God said YHWH which means He exists Greetings Marty,
It is unfortunate that our translations render “YHWH” as simple existence. It actually should be rendered “I shall become what I shall become”. The expression “YHWH” is used several times in Exodus and it is rendered to become. I offer two examples for you to consider:4:3, “And he cast it on the ground and it became a serpent”.
4:4, “And he reached out his hand and it became a rod again”.These examples of the word YHWH cannot mean simple existence. The rod did not “exist” when it was cast down. It became a serpent and vise versa. What comfort would it have been to the Israelites for God to say to them “I exist” after 400 years of hard bondage? It would have been altogether meaningless to them. But if God said “I shall become what I shall become” then that would have meant something.
Okay, if a rod can become a serpent and then become a rod again, then God can become a man. And if water can become blood (chap7), then God can become whatever He wants to become. He said, “I shall become what I shall become”.
thinker
According to the Ancient Hebrew Research Center and Strings the Word in Ex 4:3&4 is not YHWH but rather HWH Which means breath. To the Hebrew culture the breath represented the character of someone or something. A generic verb with a wide application meaning to exist or be.
Each Hebrew name is a word with meaning. The word HWH means to exist and when the prefix Y meaning “he” is added it means He exists.In the interaction between Moses and YHWH, Moses made a most human request. Picture the situation. Moses is told by God to return to the land where he will be in great danger from Pharaoh. He is ask to speak to people who have no reason to trust him. He needed proof that it was the God of Israel that sent him. Moses ask for God’s name. In Hebrew the word for name is “shem” and means character or reputation. God gave Moses both. For character God told him that He is He who exists. In reputation he said that He is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. This is a name that the Hebrew slaves would understand.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 25 2009,04:51) thinker said: Quote Greetings Marty,
Please give a Scripture reference that says that God is unchangeable. I have found none whatsoever. The Scriptures declare that His PROMISES are unchangeable.I noticed that you did not reply to my treatment of “YHWH” as meaning “shall become”. Why?
Marty replied:
Quote Mal 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not. I will get to the name YHWH in a bit. Believe me you have not stumped me in the least.
Greetings again Marty,
Please look at Mal. 3:6 in it context,Quote “For I am the Lord, I change not: Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob”. God said “I change not” in reply to the sin of His people. So the expression “you are not consumed” defines what God meant by His statement “I change not”. Therefore, it is specifically His promises are unchangeable. God did not consume them because He was unchangeable in reference to the promises He spoke.
I will re-state my question: Please provide a statement by God within its context that asserts that He is unchangeable in the sense you say. God said, “I shall become what I shall become”. God fulfilled this in keeping with the unchangeable PROMISE He spoke. Thus, He became a man.
Blessings, thinker
Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and God became a man.
Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life?You interpret scripture via your doctrine and I interpret scripture via the purposes of God. I insist that my interpretations fulfill the purpose of scripture which is to build hope that we can follow in the steps of Jesus.
In the last few pages of this subject I hae gone into more detail with lightenup on this subject. I refer you to that.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2009,02:51) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2009,17:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,17:13) Hi Marty,
The Son of God showed great humility, you are right Marty. Maybe one day we will all see just how much He has humbled himself and we will be truly broken before Him.
LU
Hi LU:We've already seen how much he humbled himself through the scriptures such as washing the disciples feet, for example, and let me just add that if the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and pointing to Jesus as the example for us to follow then it would mean that we would have had to seen this through the life that he lived on earth.
If in fact he pre-existed, you and I certainly did not witness any of his life prior to his being born into this world.
Marty
Hi Marty,
Do we need to witness His life for it to have existed? No. If we did not witness His life, that does not mean that it didn't exist.This is an intriguing passage in Isaiah:
Isa 48:12-16
12 Deliverance Promised
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUIt appears that the Lord GOD has sent someone that founded the earth and the Lord GOD also sent His Spirit. That same someone was there from the beginning, from the first and that same someone spoke and not in secret either.
No who could that someone be? Let's look at Hebrews for some insight:
Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Since we have not established an agreed upon method for interpretation scripture, I will not throw them back and forth. I will simply ask you to answer the questions I posed.
How does a pre-existent Christ make him a more viable example for me?
How does a pre-existent Christ help me to fulfill the plan of God in my life?thethinker and lightenup,
I am outta hee for a while. I leave you to contemplat the question I asked.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 24 2009,20:33) thinker said: Quote Again, God said to Moses on the Mount, “I shall become what I shall become”. Marty replied:
Quote Actually God said YHWH which means He exists Greetings Marty,
It is unfortunate that our translations render “YHWH” as simple existence. It actually should be rendered “I shall become what I shall become”. The expression “YHWH” is used several times in Exodus and it is rendered to become. I offer two examples for you to consider:4:3, “And he cast it on the ground and it became a serpent”.
4:4, “And he reached out his hand and it became a rod again”.These examples of the word YHWH cannot mean simple existence. The rod did not “exist” when it was cast down. It became a serpent and vise versa. What comfort would it have been to the Israelites for God to say to them “I exist” after 400 years of hard bondage? It would have been altogether meaningless to them. But if God said “I shall become what I shall become” then that would have meant something.
Okay, if a rod can become a serpent and then become a rod again, then God can become a man. And if water can become blood (chap7), then God can become whatever He wants to become. He said, “I shall become what I shall become”.
thinker
Seems to be some confussion on here. I am martian. There is another on here whose real name is Marty.Martian said:
Quote According to the Ancient Hebrew Research Center and Strings the Word in Ex 4:3&4 is not YHWH but rather HWH Which means breath. To the Hebrew culture the breath represented the character of someone or something. A generic verb with a wide application meaning to exist or be.
Each Hebrew name is a word with meaning. The word HWH means to exist and when the prefix Y meaning “he” is added it means He exists.
Martian,
Please see the online Hebrew-English Interlinear at
http://www.scripture4all.org?/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htmIt literally reads thus: “I shall become who I am becoming“.
So I will need for you to provide the link to your source so I can see for myself all that is said in its context. I am NOT questioning your honesty by this request.
Martian said:
Quote Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and God became a man.
Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life?This is simple. By God's becoming a man I know that He can really empathize with me in my temptations and my struggles because He Himself lived among us. Again, the Scripture indicates that God can become what He wants to become. I believe that those who think not presuppose that God is too transcendant to become like us.
Would you please provide a statement within its context that proves that God cannot change? As I have said already, the Scriptures do NOT say that God cannot change in all categories and in all ways conceivable. It simply says that He cannot change in reference to a word or promise that He has spoken.
thinker
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