The Trinity Doctrine

[Cindy]

God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. He has always existed and always will be the Almighty God. Jesus is His begotten Son, full of grace and honor worthy to be praised. He emptied Himself of the glory He had with the Father and became a man. To be crucified and died on the cross for us, so we can live. Jesus never sinned, while we fall short of the glory of God. All have sinned.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. .
verse 2 And He was in the beginning with God.
verse 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made.
verse 4 And in Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

verse 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory, as of His
only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.

John 17: 5 ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You
before the world was.”

John 18;27 “for the Father Himself loves you because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
The Holy Spirit is the essence of the Father and not a being. In order to understand the truth we should be Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is like the wind, you don't see it, but is there in you and everyone born from above.
We are under the new Covenant the Blood of Christ.
Luke 22:20 ….”This cup is the new covenant in My Blood which is shed for you.
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2009,09:57)

Martian, You seem to be completely hung up on the false concept that you cannot be like Christ if He had an advantage over you.  Many here have given you examples of how a leader is better for you if he had advantages whether it be more training, more education, better parents, the right friends, the better homelife, etc. the list could go on and on…those that say they can't do this or that because they didn't have this or that like so and so are just coming up with excuses.  Christ did what He did because He believed his Father and obeyed Him by the power of the Holy Spirit within Him from His beginning.  That is something we all have the opportunity to do which leads to unity in love and purpose. We can be united in Him no matter our background, no matter our advantages.  We are without excuse.   You sound like an adopted child that says, “I can't be like the good brother or ever feel like part of this family because I'm adopted and my brother is not.”  Adopted children will never be biological children of the family but that doesn't make them less than part of the family, does it.  Good parents still give them love and protection and the same inheritance, etc.  So, I believe that if you can't be like the biological Son in the way He believes the Father and obeys the Father because you are only adopted then you are letting excuses stand in your way instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to live and to work in you. You can never be like Him on your own strength, true, nobody will be.  He relied on what He was given from the Father and we need to also! God never said that you need to become a biological son, that would be unfair because that would be impossible.  He did say that we could be adopted sons though! Allelujah! LU

Let me use this example.
I am in a NAZI death camp. The camp commander issues orders that those prisoners who have had 15 years of instruction in engendering are to be released and saved. I did not have that training. How can I have hope of being saved within those parameters.

Jesus had an entire eternity of training, faith building experiences, and memories. These things helped him know and trust his Father, overcome sin, defeat sickness and be resurrected. These experiences taught him how to love and accept us and walk with God.
In fact you said “A pre-existent Christ is a fuller and richer teacher, mentor, example for you because He walked with the Master, served with the Master and had a Father/Son relationship with the Master from the beginning of time.” And “We can learn more from the pre-existent Christ because of His greater intimacy with the Father. The pre-existent Christ has a longer and more intimate relationship with the Father than a non-pre-existent Christ thus making the pre-existent Christ a better one to explain the Father to us so that we can become more like Christ and thus become more like the Father.”

I did not have that eternity of things. How can I have hope that I too can do these things in the same way he did?

1 John 2:6?the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

HOW CAN I WALK AS JESUS WALKED IF HIS WALK WAS DEPENDENT ON HIS PRE-EXISTENCE?

John 15
12″This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Was Jesus ability to love based (even in part) on his pre-existence?

Romans 15:7?Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

Did Jesus accept us because of something He learned in a prior life?

John 17
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Did Jesus say He was not if this world because He pre-existed? Then how are we not of this world?

18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

HOW CAN I BE SENT INTO THE WORLD AS JESUS WAS IF HE CAME FROM SOME PRE-EXISTENT STATE?

21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

HOW CAN I HAVE THE SAME ONENESS/INTIMACY WITH THE FATHER IF THAT INTIMACY IS BASED ON PRE-EXISTENCE?

Phil 2
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

Was Jesus blameless and innocent because of His pre-existence?

You or others have implied that we cannot be exactly like Christ.

Peter calls Christ spotless
1 Pet 1
18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

1 Pet 2
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
THIS IS SOMETHING WE ARE TO HAVE AS WE LOOK FOR THESE THINGS. IN OTHERWORDS BEFORE WE GET TO HEAVEN.

DID CHRIST PRE-EXISTENCE HAVE ANY EFFECT ON HIS ABILITY TO BE SPOTLESS?

Eph 5
1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

WAS CHRIST LOVE BECAUSE OF SOME PER-EXISTENCE? HOW CAN WE THEN DO IT?

There are those who say we cannot really become like Christ this side of heaven because they lack the belief that God can complete the work he started. It is, at times, also used as an excuse to hold onto sin they are unwilling to give up.

Perhaps you can tell me to what percentage are we capable of becoming like Christ.
You cannot answer that either just like you cannot answer without speculating what happened to Christ’ memories and experiences of his pre-existence. Speculation upon mystery upon mystery. You do not know what you believe. It is a mystery even to you!

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2009,14:46)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 25 2009,05:17) Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life? I think this is a non-question. How does Jesus begin a Jew help me a Gentile be more like him? That too is a non-irrelevant question. The premise or foundation of your thinking shouldn't be “how does this help me”. It should me more like “how do I change to be more like him”. We are able to be like him, because he overcame death and the devil and now we can have the same Spirit that he had because we are cleansed of all our sin. Could you have done that if you lived pre-2000 years ago? If the answer is no, then Christ is obviously different in that aspect at least. Him coming in the flesh was to become a man. But he obviously was no ordinary man. For a start he had a mission that no other man had, and he had a conception that was different. Yes there are similarities, in that he was born of a woman like we are. But he was also different, and he has given us the power to be like him. Not in our own fleshly strength but by the same Spirit that indwelt him.

I think this is a non-question.

How does Jesus begin a Jew help me a Gentile be more like him?

That too is a non-irrelevant question. The premise or foundation of your thinking shouldn't be “how does this help me”. It should me more like “how do I change to be more like him”.

Reply –
The first thing that must be established before your question is to establish if it is even possible for me to be like Him. I must have clear hope that I can do this before I go off trying in any way to accomplish it. To whatever degree Jesus’ character (which is he character of God) is due to his pre-existence, to that same degree I cannot develop the character in the same way. Even though Jesus says he is the way and many scriptures say we are to imitate him.

You say –
We are able to be like him, because he overcame death and the devil and now we can have the same Spirit that he had because we are cleansed of all our sin. Could you have done that if you lived pre-2000 years ago? If the answer is no, then Christ is obviously different in that aspect at least.

Reply
You are comparing apples and oranges. I am talking about Jesus role as an example for how we are to walk with God and you are talking about His mission as the Messiah. These are two different things. Of course I do not expect to be another Messiah, however I am expected to develop the same character as the example given me by my father. That example is of course Jesus.

You say –
Him coming in the flesh was to become a man. But he obviously was no ordinary man. For a start he had a mission that no other man had,….

Reply –
Again that is apples and oranges. I am not talking about His mission.

You say-
and he had a conception that was different.

Reply –
By conception, are you speaking of His relationship with God?

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 26 2009,19:19)

Martian said: Quote While it is true that YHWH can at times mean to become this is a matter of function not appearance. At least you acknowledge that the name YHWH means more than just simple existence. You are now saying that the name necessarily carries with it the idea of God's “becoming” in some way. This is a good start. BUT THEN YOU SAID: Quote Jesus was God in the sense that He functioned as God. Please note the twist you've done here. First you give a partial concession saying that the name YHWH means that He can become in the sense of “function”. Then you say that Jesus was God in the sense that He “functioned as God”. This is double talk! You say first that it is YHWH that “functions”. Then you say that it is Jesus doing the “functioning”. You can't have it both ways Martian. And your assertion that YHWH cannot “become” in appearance is very problematic. First, there are several instances where YHWH took the outward form of a man in the old testament. Jacob's wrestling with God is one more notable instance. Jacob wrestled with one who “appeared” to be a man to him. Jacob then realized that the one he wrestled with was God for he said, Quote “FOR I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE“, Genesis32:24-34. This is an undisputable example that YHWH can become something in appearance! Then there is Paul's clear assertion that Jesus existed in the form of God prior to His birth. It says that He humbled Himself and took the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. This is appearance! You have conceded that the name YHWH means more than simple existence and that it carries with it the idea that that He “becomes” something though you say it is by “function” alone. But then you attribute the “functioning” to Jesus. You appear confused. And you still haven't produced one statement in Scripture in context that proves your theory that God cannot change. thinker

I do not have the time nor patience to teach you the influince of Hebrew culture on the writers of scripture. If you are interested I would suggest you start with this web page. You might want to do some exploring throughout the entire web site as I have found it to be a good one.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2009,14:46)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 25 2009,05:17) Tell me this, How does that make Christ a more viable example for me? and How does that help to fulfill God's plan for my life? I think this is a non-question. How does Jesus begin a Jew help me a Gentile be more like him? That too is a non-irrelevant question. The premise or foundation of your thinking shouldn't be “how does this help me”. It should me more like “how do I change to be more like him”. We are able to be like him, because he overcame death and the devil and now we can have the same Spirit that he had because we are cleansed of all our sin. Could you have done that if you lived pre-2000 years ago? If the answer is no, then Christ is obviously different in that aspect at least. Him coming in the flesh was to become a man. But he obviously was no ordinary man. For a start he had a mission that no other man had, and he had a conception that was different. Yes there are similarities, in that he was born of a woman like we are. But he was also different, and he has given us the power to be like him. Not in our own fleshly strength but by the same Spirit that indwelt him.

Let me add some more concerning this statement of yours —

We are able to be like him, because he overcame death and the devil and now we can have the same Spirit that he had because we are cleansed of all our sin. Could you have done that if you lived pre-2000 years ago? If the answer is no, then Christ is obviously different in that aspect at least.

The Hebrews of pre-Christ time were also cleansed of their sins via the sacrifices in the Tabernacle and Temple. As far back as Cain and Able did man make sacrifice to cleanse themselves from sin. God always made a way for man to walk on a righteous path with Him.
Men of pre-Christ time also had examples of Godly men to imitate. The great men of faith of the OT, Abraham, Isaaic, David, Ruth ect. Need I list more? Though they had great relationship with God, none were exact representations of the character of God in a human being. These walked by the Torah and no man is perfected by the Torah. They will be judged by the light they were given. We too will be judged by the light we are given. In our case it is the perfect example of God’s character in a human being. Jesus Christ.

[martian]

I am done for the day.

Blessings to all

[david]

Quote

Quote “FOR I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE”, Genesis32:24-34. This is an undisputable example that YHWH can become something in appearance!

Was he a man?

Quote

EXODUS 33:20 “And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.””

If he literally did see God's face, being a man, then there is a contradiction. But, there is no contradiction when we consider the many uses of the word “face” as used in Hebrew (or even English.)

The Hebrew and Greek words for “face” (Heb., pa·neh′; Gr., pro′so·pon) are used in varied senses, even as is true of the English word.

“Face to face” may denote intimate association or communication. Thus, Moses was privileged to have such a close relationship with God and be used so powerfully by God that he is referred to as a prophet “whom Jehovah knew face to face.” (De 34:10-12) While it is said that Moses beheld “the appearance of Jehovah” and that Jehovah spoke to him “mouth to mouth,” yet Moses never saw Jehovah’s face literally. Rather, as the context shows, it was God’s speaking through angelic spokesmen to Moses in open, verbal communication (instead of by visions or dreams) that gave the basis for such expression. (Nu 12:6-8; Ex 33:20; Ac 7:35, 38; Ga 3:19; compare Ge 32:24-30; Ho 12:3, 4.) Moses recalled to Israel that God spoke “face to face” with them, since they heard the loud voice at Sinai, though none of them actually saw Jehovah.—De 5:4; 4:11-15; Heb 12:19.

[martian]

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2009,07:53)

Quote Quote “FOR I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE”, Genesis32:24-34. This is an undisputable example that YHWH can become something in appearance! Was he a man? Quote EXODUS 33:20 “And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”” If he literally did see God's face, being a man, then there is a contradiction.  But, there is no contradiction when we consider the many uses of the word “face” as used in Hebrew (or even English.) The Hebrew and Greek words for “face” (Heb., pa·neh?; Gr., pro?so·pon) are used in varied senses, even as is true of the English word. “Face to face” may denote intimate association or communication. Thus, Moses was privileged to have such a close relationship with God and be used so powerfully by God that he is referred to as a prophet “whom Jehovah knew face to face.” (De 34:10-12) While it is said that Moses beheld “the appearance of Jehovah” and that Jehovah spoke to him “mouth to mouth,” yet Moses never saw Jehovah’s face literally. Rather, as the context shows, it was God’s speaking through angelic spokesmen to Moses in open, verbal communication (instead of by visions or dreams) that gave the basis for such expression. (Nu 12:6-8; Ex 33:20; Ac 7:35, 38; Ga 3:19; compare Ge 32:24-30; Ho 12:3, 4.) Moses recalled to Israel that God spoke “face to face” with them, since they heard the loud voice at Sinai, though none of them actually saw Jehovah.—De 5:4; 4:11-15; Heb 12:19.

The Hebrew word paniym means face, but has a deeper meaning then the appearance of the front of the head. Hebrew nouns denote objects of action. The action behind paniym is the expression of emotion and personality in the face, and since we have an infinite number of “faces” (emotions/personality traits) the word is plural. You can be confronted with the personality or emotions of another without actually seeing their literal physical face.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,07:14)

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Exactly.

If he existed in the form of theos and came in the flesh/walked as a man, humbled himself, then we can be like him. Not so much because he came in the flesh because that doesn't affect us in the slightest. It is what he did while in the flesh, and in the power of God, that makes us accomplish so much and to be like him.

Remember, he came as one of us, and now we are becoming like him.

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

I do not have the time nor patience to teach you the influince of Hebrew culture on the writers of scripture. If you are interested I would suggest you start with this web page. You might want to do some exploring throughout the entire web site as I have found it to be a good one.

Martian,
Your lack of time and patience really means that you don't have the answers. If you have the time and patience to spout off then you have the time and patience to back it up.

I have requested of you several times to give Scriptural proof for your presupposition that God cannot change. But you keep failing to reply.

One more time: Please provide a Biblical statement  in context that verifies your presupposition that God cannot change. If you don't have the time and patience to answer this then don't post at all. It's that simple!

thinker

[942767]

Hi LU:

You say:

Quote

Hi Marty, Do we need to witness His life for it to have existed?  No.  If we did not witness His life, that does not mean that it didn't exist.

Paul was instructing the church about humility and pointing to the life of Jesus as the example for us to follow.  We do have to witness his life in order to follow that example, and we do that through the scriptures that are given us relative to his obedience to God.

You then you quote the following verses out of Isaiah 48.  

This is an intriguing passage in Isaiah:

Isa 48:12-16

12 Deliverance Promised
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASU[/quote]

And say relative to the fore-going scriptures:

QUOTE]It appears that the Lord GOD has sent someone that founded the earth and the Lord GOD also sent His Spirit.  That same someone was there from the beginning, from the first and that same someone spoke and not in secret either[/QUOTE]

I believe that these scriptures are speaking prohetically about Cyrus whom God would use to deliver the Nation of Israel from the Babylon Captivity. Because of the following:

Quote

14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.

You then refer me to the following scriptues in the book of Hebrews:

Quote

8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

God said this to His Son after he had obeyed Him even unto death on the cross and had been resurrected from the dead, and so I fail to see anything here that would indicate that he pre-existed.

Quote

r 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Quote

9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

And the following verse which I admit is a little difficult to understand:

Quote

10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU

But I believe that they refer to the following scriptures:

Quote

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

Quote

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.   Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Quote

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

God Bless

[942767]

Hi LU:

I just wanted to quote the following scripture to show when God spoke those things we dicussed out of the book of Hebrews:

The scriptures state:

Quote

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

When: “WHEN HE BRINGETH IN THE FIRSTBEGOTTEN INTO THE WORLD”.

And of those things pertaining to his throne. It was after his resurrection.

Quote

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 26 2009,20:09)

Hi LU: You say: Quote Hi Marty, Do we need to witness His life for it to have existed?  No.  If we did not witness His life, that does not mean that it didn't exist. Paul was instructing the church about humility and pointing to the life of Jesus as the example for us to follow.  We do have to witness his life in order to follow that example, and we do that through the scriptures that are given us relative to his obedience to God. You then you quote the following verses out of Isaiah 48.   This is an intriguing passage in Isaiah: Isa 48:12-16 12 Deliverance Promised “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU[/quote] And say relative to the fore-going scriptures: QUOTE]It appears that the Lord GOD has sent someone that founded the earth and the Lord GOD also sent His Spirit.  That same someone was there from the beginning, from the first and that same someone spoke and not in secret either[/QUOTE] I believe that these scriptures are speaking prohetically about Cyrus whom God would use to deliver the Nation of Israel from the Babylon Captivity. Because of the following: Quote 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. You then refer me to the following scriptues in the book of Hebrews: Quote 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” God said this to His Son after he had obeyed Him even unto death on the cross and had been resurrected from the dead, and so I fail to see anything here that would indicate that he pre-existed. Quote r 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Quote 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” And the following verse which I admit is a little difficult to understand: Quote 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU But I believe that they refer to the following scriptures: Quote Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth Quote Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.   Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.   Quote Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. God Bless

Hi Marty,
Thank you for your response and your time.

We have the scriptures to tell us about Christ and that helps us be like Him, I agree. I also believe that if it were required by the Father to be like Him in His pre-existent heavenly state then we would have scriptures that would clearly speak of that so, since we don't, then we aren't required to be like the pre-existent Christ, we are told to imitate Christ as He walked in the flesh. That however doesn't mean that He didn't pre-exist. His pre-existent state perhaps wasn't meant to be our example, his earthly state was meant to be our example among other things. His pre-existent state had another function and I believe that He was used in the beginning to lay the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens for starters.

Your claiming that the verse in Hebrews referred to a new heavens and a new earth is unfounded because it is referring to the heavens and the earth that will perish. The new heavens and the new earth do not perish from what I understand.

Also, the passage in Isaiah refers to Cyrus very likely as the “him” but not the “me” or the “I” in that passage. I believe that the “me” and the “I” refers to the one who Hebrews says laid the foundation of the earth, the earth that will become old and perish, our present heaven and earth-the Son is who did that according to God, His Father.

God bless!
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 26 2009,21:49)

Hi LU: I just wanted to quote the following scripture to show when God spoke those things we dicussed out of the book of Hebrews: The scriptures state: Quote Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. When:  “WHEN HE BRINGETH IN THE FIRSTBEGOTTEN INTO THE WORLD”. And of those things pertaining to his throne.  It was after his resurrection. Quote Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Marty

Hi again Marty,
I agree that God spoke those things after the resurrection. It was then when the Son was given all authority over all things except the Father. That doesn't mean that the Son wasn't around during creation, it just shows that He wasn't given the authority over all things back then.

LU

[Lightenup]

Hi Martian,
You asked:

Quote

HOW CAN I WALK AS JESUS WALKED IF HIS WALK WAS DEPENDENT ON HIS PRE-EXISTENCE?

Jesus's walk while in the flesh wasn't dependent on His pre-existence. His walk whether pre-existent or in the earthy body was always dependent on the Father. In that way we imitate the Son, by depending on the Father in all things.

LU

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,11:27)

Likewise, there is one God and Father of all. Even though there are gods and fathers. Is your earthly father a false father? Was Abraham a false father? Was Christ a false father for that matter? [/quote] t8 Thats the point!!! The Father and Yeshua is the only one that the words “True Theos” can be said of in the NT.

So that makes 2 who are THEOS. But for US there is one GOd the Father.

I believe as Paul, that there is one God the Father. You do not believe this WJ.

Angels are called elohim, and to be consistant, you must beleive that they are all false elohims.

WJ, you are out of your depth. Your doctrine falters in the light and study of scripture. Scripture shows your teaching of the Trinity as false.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,11:30)

I disagree. And the word Father should be no different. For there is ONE Father of all. So is Abraham a false father? Is Christ a false father? Is you dad a false father? Is every man who has ever had a son or daughter a false father? I eagerly await your answer because no matter what your answer is, you have a contradiction according to your way of thinking. Yes means that you are wrong because Abraham is called a father and Jesus is the everlasting father. No means that your own understanding is wrong, i.e., that there is one and all others are false. Not even luck can save you on this one.

WJ, did you answer this post?

If not, now is your chance.

[martian]

Just to lighten things up a bit, I offer this —

You might be a pentescostel if —
1): The amount of money you spend on hairspray exceeds your gas bill.
2): Your pastor announces midweek services EVERY Sunday night, and
Sunday service[s] EVERY Wednesday night.
3): You [or the ladies you know] can swim in a denim skirt and still
have fun.
4): It takes longer to TAKE prayer requests than it does to pray for
them.
5): You run into more than half of the church members on one trip to
Wal-Mart.
6): The musicians at your church can tear it up, but none of them can
read sheet music.
7): You have 50 pairs of church shoes.
8): You're adept at stopping runs in stockings with just about
anything.
9): The ushers double as crossing guards when people run the aisles.
10): Running the aisles and jumping up and down is your exercise.
11): You could be an Olympic volleyball player with all the practice
you have had from church functions.
12): A birthday party is a night on the town.
13): Your white choir moves like Kirk Franklin's group.
14): The pastor says, “With this thought I close,” more than three
times each service.
15): You have adequate respect for the power of flying hairpins.
16): Your feet have been stomped on at least 3 times during a service.
17): A run in your last pair of stockings is a national disaster.
1: You judge a church service by swollen eyes, rumpled clothes, and
disheveled hair.
19): Your kids know how to eat any crunchy thing quietly and could
sleep on a hard bench through a tornado.
20): When shopping for shirts, you always run it through the “Praise
the Lord,” test.
21): Sunday and Wednesday mean no cooking or dishes.
22): You can maneuver into a vehicle without messing up your hairdo.
23): Celebrating your 21st birthday doesn't mean much.
24): The employees at Subway, Dairy Queen and Pizza Hut know you by name.
25): You can always find hairpins on the floor after a good service.
26): You can pronounce, “Habakkuk”.
27): Mondays and Thursdays are the hardest days to wake up in the
morning.
2: Your day of rest includes 2 church services, choir practice, and
hte nearest buffet restaurant.
29): The kids you know think shot glasses are for playing communion.
30): Growing up you baptized your cousins and siblings several times
in the swimming pool.
31): Your 2 year-old runs through Wal-Mart shouting, “Praise the
Lord! Eb shamma dabba yamma yabba dooba! *clap *clap* clap* Yes,
Lord! Yes, Lord! Thank You Jesus! Hallelujah!”
32): The only thing longer than your prayer list is the hair of the
ladies you know.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2009,11:28)

Martian said: Quote I do not have the time nor patience to teach you the influince of Hebrew culture on the writers of scripture. If you are interested I would suggest you start with this web page. You might want to do some exploring throughout the entire web site as I have found it to be a good one. Martian, Your lack of time and patience really means that you don't have the answers. If you have the time and patience to spout off then you have the time and patience to back it up. I have requested of you several times to give Scriptural proof for your presupposition that God cannot change. But you keep failing to reply. One more time: Please provide a Biblical statement  in context that verifies your presupposition that God cannot change. If you don't have the time and patience to answer this then don't post at all. It's that simple! thinker

Just exactly who died and made you God. What arogance to think you can judge my motives. I thought that was God's job.
Tell me is usurping the position exclusive to God something you do often.

Get over yourself dude!

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2009,16:32)

Hi Martian, You asked: Quote HOW CAN I WALK AS JESUS WALKED IF HIS WALK WAS DEPENDENT ON HIS PRE-EXISTENCE? Jesus's walk while in the flesh wasn't dependent on His pre-existence.  His walk whether pre-existent or in the earthy body was always dependent on the Father.  In that way we imitate the Son, by depending on the Father in all things. LU

But there is the crux of the matter. Others on hee have said that Christ maintained memories and experiances from his pre-existence into his life on earth. It is memories, knowledge and experiances that mold our character and motivate our decission making. This would give Christ a trememdous advantage over the rest of us and yet we are required to make the same choices.

It would be like you or me suddenly being transported to heven for a few weeks. There we enjoy intimate fellowship with our father and freedom from all tribulation on the Earth. If we were to be placed back on Earth again, it would be much easier to walk with God.

[Author]

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