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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 12 2008,19:21) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 12 2008,19:12) Man says God is a Trinity.
God doesn't say that HE is a Trinity.
The Trinity doesn't say anything because it is a figment of the imaginations of men.God is one, not triune.
God is a HE, not THEM.
Hi t8Nice creed you have there t8.
But your creed does not hold up against scripture that claims Jesus is God.
WJ
You are a product of your culture WJ. The fact is that nowhere is the Trinity taught except in a scripture that was inserted later on and is not actually a scripture. There is no Trinity, no scripture mentions it or teaches it. Not even John 1:1 mentions the Trinity, it only mentions God and the Logos, which makes 2 at most.To teach the Trinity is wrong and for anyone to say that it is the foundation of Christian faith or that those who do not believe it are not saved is false. Yet this teaching is very popular, just as evolution is popular which also happens to be a false doctrine.
God desires people who are not swayed by the philosophies of men. He wants to be your teacher and to renew your mind and he wants us to stay clear of the doctrines of demons that are only designed to take our eyes off the truth by enticing us away from what is revealed by God.
I am sure that if I was debating with Chinese communists that they would be just as adamant about their beliefs as you are about the Trinity.
If you stuck to scripture WJ, you might have some credibility, but you take a scripture here and there and you are not consistent (take your interpretations of 'theos' for example).
I really don't need to point this out as anyone can read your posts.
Remember it is written that some will kill us and think that they are doing God a favour. How much more then will people teach falsely and think they are doing the will of God?
It is pride that blinds a man, it is that simple. God reveals his precious truth to the humble and innocent. If a man cannot grasp what God has revealed, then what are we to conclude?
If a man cannot be filled with God's truth, then perhaps such a man is already full of something else, leaving no room for correction?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2008,04:25) Hi WJ,
Jesus did not tell you to believe in any trinity. That teaching is not in the bible.
So how can you accuse David?
Nick……Amen to that statement, Its like the pot calling the Kettle black.
T8………i wonder if WJ and EP ever thought why they have to go through such long explanations, to try to get their Trinitarian Doctrines understood, If it was so simple why such long and argues posts, and while they do that they completely ignore all the many simple Scripture that Show them wrong. Jesus plainly Said “THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. The word thou means someone (other) then the person speaking and the word (only) means no other. They cant even get over that hurdle much less the many others. Like “I am going to my Father and your Father, my GOD, and your GOD. And yet both present themselves as men of great “Scholarship”.
love and peace to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2008,04:28) T8………i wonder if WJ and EP ever thought why they have to go through such long explanations, to try to get their Trinitarian Doctrines understood, If it was so simple why such long and argues posts, and while they do that they completely ignore all the many simple Scripture that Show them wrong. Jesus plainly Said “THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. The word thou means someone (other) then the person speaking and the word (only) means no other. They cant even get over that hurdle much less the many others. Like “I am going to my Father and your Father, my GOD, and your GOD. And yet both present themselves as men of great “Scholarship”. love and peace to you and yours……………….gene
Agreed.Scholars can be prideful and as such God hides the truth from proud people and reveals it to the innocent and humble.
So are we just witnessing this?1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.This is the part when Isaiah called me a liar. At the time of this discussion I couldn't find the actual post so I couldn't give proof that he accused me of lying, but when tidying up the discussion to fit part 2 with Trinity Part 1, I came across this post and thought I should show the proof while it was there.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 11 2007,20:43) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2007,07:34) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 12 2007,01:39) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2007,06:30) Haven't you guys got better things to do with all the time you spend here accusing us and looking for weaknesses in our armour.
t8, can you show me where I have accused you of something that was unjustified?To my mind I ask you a lot of questions (that you summarily side step), but I don't recall railing accusations at you personally.
Your first accusation against me if I am remembering clearly, was that I was deceitful and a liar. You then also hold to the view that Nick and myself are preaching false doctrine.
Some quotes would be good t8. I just don't trust your self-proclaimed “famously bad” memory.Here is a quote that my famously bad memory remembered, but couldn't find at the time.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 25 2006,05:29) You are right, it is a very serious accusation, and I don’t make it lightly. I certainly wouldn't do it if there was an element of ambiguity involved, but there isn’t – it's clear cut. You teach that the noun 'theos' in John 1:1c is denotative of quality not identity because the article is missing. This is not true. It's a watchtower lie that you have perpetuated for quite a while now, even when the error has been explained to you – many times over, and in detail. You indeed have been lying to people t8, the evidence speaks for itself. These are your words: Quote (t8 @ Nov. 16 2008,19:25) This is the part when Isaiah called me a liar. At the time of this discussion I couldn't find the actual post so I couldn't give proof that he accused me of lying, but when tidying up the discussion to fit part 2 with Trinity Part 1, I came across this post and thought I should show the proof while it was there. Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 11 2007,20:43) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2007,07:34) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 12 2007,01:39) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2007,06:30) Haven't you guys got better things to do with all the time you spend here accusing us and looking for weaknesses in our armour.
t8, can you show me where I have accused you of something that was unjustified?To my mind I ask you a lot of questions (that you summarily side step), but I don't recall railing accusations at you personally.
Your first accusation against me if I am remembering clearly, was that I was deceitful and a liar. You then also hold to the view that Nick and myself are preaching false doctrine.
Some quotes would be good t8. I just don't trust your self-proclaimed “famously bad” memory.Here is a quote that my famously bad memory remembered, but couldn't find at the time.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 25 2006,05:29) You are right, it is a very serious accusation, and I don’t make it lightly. I certainly wouldn't do it if there was an element of ambiguity involved, but there isn’t – it's clear cut. You teach that the noun 'theos' in John 1:1c is denotative of quality not identity because the article is missing. This is not true. It's a watchtower lie that you have perpetuated for quite a while now, even when the error has been explained to you – many times over, and in detail. You indeed have been lying to people t8, the evidence speaks for itself. These are your words:
Hi t8How amazing it is that you would seek out dirt to throw at a believer from a year and a half ago. What purpose do you have in doing this? Is it to make you into a martyr? It seems you have a Martyr attitude lately, as if when someone adamantly disagrees with you then in your mind they would kill you. What happened to “turning the other cheek” or “loving your enemies” or “Love covers a multitude of sins”.
Maybe I should remind you of calling Isa 1:18 a liar.
This was your comment to him in the John 17:3 debate thread, emphasis mine….
t8 wrote…
If you look at what I wrote. I said that “if God inspired my writing”. It wasn't a statement to say that he absolutely did.Then you say if God inspired me do I think the opposite for Isaiah.
Well we know that truth comes from God and lies come from the Father of lies and there is no truth in him.
Now men can be inspired by either and in a lifetime both at different times. Peter is a good example of this.
I claim to speak the truth yes, but I do not claim to be perfect, all knowing, and beyond making mistakes. I have made plenty of mistakes in my life. I also do not believe that Isaiah (the member not the biblical writer) speaks the truth, rather he speaks the words of men. Rarely have I heard him speak the truth. Quoting a scripture is not what I am talking about. I am talking about his conclusions.
I use scripture to prove my words and he uses a mixture of scripture and creeds/philosophy as any cult does . He also likes big words as philosophers often do, I am not against them per se, but feel that the truth is important enough to make it as clear as possible to all and that using them for prides sake is not a good reason.
I believe that those who try and preserve the traditions of men do so because of pride. But a person who loves the truth will except truth even if the whole world is against it. And we know that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one.
I am not interested in trying to prove that I am better than Isaiah or he is better than me because that would be foolish pride talking. But you asked for my opinion, I gave it. It is what I believe. It has nothing to do with reputations or pride.
I believe that Isaiah doesn't speak the truth and pride is what stops him from seeing the simple truth from scripture.
It seems to me your reason in pointing the finger at him leaves you with 4 pointed back at you and is out of pride itself. Pot meets kettle! Incredible!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 17 2008,04:36) Hi t8 How amazing it is that you would seek out dirt to throw at a believer from a year and a half ago. What purpose do you have in doing this? Is it to make you into a martyr? It seems you have a Martyr attitude lately, as if when someone adamantly disagrees with you then in your mind they would kill you. What happened to “turning the other cheek” or “loving your enemies” or “Love covers a multitude of sins”.
Not.I was answering a post with the proof that was asked for.
I only noticed when tidying up, that is all.
Better late than never.I gave what was asked.
Thanks for listening.
It is true WJ, that I haven't seen much of his teaching as truth. Scripture is a witness to that.
I haven't passed judgment on him by calling him a liar or whatever. I have made a comment about his words. It is up to God to pass judgement on what sort of people we are.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,16:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
No because you guys say that you believe in the Trinity Doctrine and openly confess that you are Trinitarians so we are calling you by what you say you are. Unless of course you are willing to make an admission that you and Is are not TrinitariansBut we do not claim to be Polytheists as has been suggested by you or Is or both.
If I claimed to be a polytheist and you called me one, then there would be no problem.
Can you see that?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 17 2008,04:36) Hi t8 How amazing it is that you would seek out dirt to throw at a believer from a year and a half ago.
Was that an admission that this was dirt?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2007,10:42) t8 As I said it is the confusion on “this” forum and the fruit of it, and its not all trinitarian debate.
So I am compelled to come here and let the light of the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to shine in this darkness through the truth of his word.
The Trinity Doctrine is not the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. He never taught the Trinity or preached the Trinity. The Trinity is not the gospel WJ. The Trinity is the result of men who claim to be wise, turning God into an image or formula.What did Thomas mean when he said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God”?
This scripture comes up a lot.
On the occasion of Jesus’ appearance to Thomas and the other apostles, which had removed Thomas’ doubts of Jesus’ resurrection, the now-convinced Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: “My Lord and my God! [literally, “The Lord of me and the God (ho The·os′) of me!”].” (Joh 20:24-29) Some scholars have viewed this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. However, others claim the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the expression “My Lord and my God” would still have to harmonize with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. Since the record shows that Jesus had previously sent his disciples the message, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God,” there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. (Joh 20:17) John himself, after recounting Thomas’ encounter with the resurrected Jesus, says of this and similar accounts: “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.”—Joh 20:30, 31.
So, Thomas may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in the sense of Jesus’ being “a god” though not the Almighty God, not “the only true God,” to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray. (Joh 17:1-3) Or he may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. (Compare Ge 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-33; 32:24-30; Jg 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, “I am the true God.” (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as “my God” in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas’ words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, “The Father is greater than I am.”—Joh 14:28.
–Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.
Does Thomas’ exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God?
John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”
There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT).
The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).
–Reasoning from the ScripturesQuote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,14:47) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,08:38)
1. The Heavenly Father of Jesus is true God
2. The Son (Jesus) is true God
3. The Holy Spirit is true God
4. There is only one true GodNick, Not3, Kenrch, Tim….which one is untrue? and why?
I'm not on the list, but I'm gonna throw my two cents in anyways (sorry)1. The Heavenly Father is THE true God – John 17:3
2. The Son is God in the sense that the judges of Israel were said to be gods. The judges were appointed of God to represent His judgment on earth. That is why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34. Jesus is the ultimate representative of God on earth, but this does not make him God the Father or equal with God. He is God by representation of the nature and character of God the Father, the Almighty God, God of gods. And he has the nature of God through his conception — has there been another who was born of God? And while Jesus may share the title of Lord of lords by his inheritance, he does not share the honor and position of God of gods (Deuteronomy 10:17).
3. The Holy Spirit is inseparable from God. It indwells us as an extension of Him, as it fully indwelled the Son. The Holy Spirit has never been worshiped and has always done the Will of God. There is no indication of it being apart and separate from God. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God continues to teach us, communicate with us, and comfort us. It is not God but of God — God the Father.
4. There is only one true Yahweh God. His Son Yeshua was a “true God” in the sense that, like the judges of Israel, he represented the one True God, Yahweh, God the Father. Yet Jesus could earn the title of “God” with a capital “G” because he is the only to fully be able to represent God to us, in perfection, while taking the form of Man. He is the only begotten Son of God, yet Son of Man. None other has been — or will be — able to represent God the Father to Man in a manner which we can see and understand. The judges were merely imperfect humans and were only called “gods” — Jesus is the only one of humanity worthy of the title of “God” because of his Father.Thanks for the list.
I thought this was a good post.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2008,08:11) It is true WJ, that I haven't seen much of his teaching as truth. Scripture is a witness to that. I haven't passed judgment on him by calling him a liar or whatever. I have made a comment about his words. It is up to God to pass judgement on what sort of people we are.
spin doctoring at its best…. have you ever worked for the Clinton administration? Telling someone “you rarely speak the truth” is the same as saying “most of the time, you lie”, for what is the opposite of truth but lies? Invoking “scripture” does not change the fact that it is in YOUR opinion that what he says does not line with scripture, and if scripture is truth, and what he says does not line up scripture/truth, then manifestly, you are calling him a liar. Pretty simple really, despite your spin on your words….. making yourself out to be the innocent martyr, while others are despicable liars.blessings,
kenHi E,
So scripture is truth.
Trinity is not written in scripture.
So where did this strange new teaching come from?Quote (epistemaniac @ Dec. 30 2008,04:58) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2008,08:11) It is true WJ, that I haven't seen much of his teaching as truth. Scripture is a witness to that. I haven't passed judgment on him by calling him a liar or whatever. I have made a comment about his words. It is up to God to pass judgement on what sort of people we are.
spin doctoring at its best…. have you ever worked for the Clinton administration? Telling someone “you rarely speak the truth” is the same as saying “most of the time, you lie”, for what is the opposite of truth but lies? Invoking “scripture” does not change the fact that it is in YOUR opinion that what he says does not line with scripture, and if scripture is truth, and what he says does not line up scripture/truth, then manifestly, you are calling him a liar. Pretty simple really, despite your spin on your words….. making yourself out to be the innocent martyr, while others are despicable liars.blessings,
ken
E, I disagree with you.Do I run?
Yes.Am I a runner?
No.Do I lie?
YesAm I a liar?
No. I hope not at least.Do I do gardening sometimes?
Yes.Am I a gardner?
No.The difference is the practice of something.
If I prophecy, am I a prophet?
Not necessarily.For not all who prophecy are prophets. Some are exercising the gift and others have a ministry.
So if Isaiah doesn't speak truth in a certain matter, then that doesn't grant him a place in the lake of fire with the liars. That is up to God to judge, not me. But if he speaks non-truth or against scripture then I am able to show that.
So E, I think you need to re-evaluate your stance about spin doctoring. I believe it is not true what you have said regarding that.
I read in “Trinity Doctrine” that Jesus is NOT God. In another
UCG publication I read that He IS God and that those who say
we believe He is not misunderstand us. Can anyone clarify please.Hi and welcome S,
Jesus said he is the son of God.
He never said he is God.
He is our teacher.He told the Jews the Father is their God.
Jn8.54
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:Nick – Thanks for responding. Below are several (of many) quotes from a UCB publication, “WHO IS JESUS.” that strongly imply His claim to be God. Do you see the two concepys I am trying to unify?
“Who, really, was Jesus of Nazareth? Where did He really
come from? If we understand that,it explains everything He did andsaid. Most see Jesus as a teacher…”“What this entails is the understanding that Jesus was not simply an extraordinary human being, but that Jesus was actually God inhuman flesh. But if He was God in the flesh, how was He God? This is the part that is often neglected in many explanations—and, as a result, many have difficulty
grasping how this could be.”“Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement,“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” (John8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing.But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, Hewas making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him
for blasphemy.What was going on here? Jesus was revealing His identity as theactual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He wassaying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was thesame Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses inExodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. “I AM WHOI AM,” was the awesome reply. “Thus you shall say to the children ofIsrael, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the “I AM” of Exodus3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).
“I AM” is related to the personal name for God in the Old Testament,the Hebrew name YHWH. When this name appears in our EnglishBibles, it is commonly rendered using small capital letters as Lord. It istransliterated as “Jehovah” in some Bible versions.When Jesus made this startling statement, the Jews knew exactly whatHe meant. They picked up stones to kill Him because they thought He
was guilty of blasphemy.“I AM” and the related YHWH are the names of God that infer absolutetimeless self-existence.ld be.”
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