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Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,15:17) Quote in my opinion, and in the opinion of literally millions of other Christians, trinity is found in the scriptures… there…. now that wasn't so difficult, was it? or was that really difficult for you to figure out…? And in my opinion, 96% of the people who believe that the trinity is found in scripture, believe this simply because they're told to believe it, whereas the people who believe in God, but reject the trinity, all seem to all have strong scriptural reasons.
Hi DavidI think your statement…
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,15:17)
believe this simply because they're told to believe it,
pretty much sums up the JWs who believe what “Watchtower” says rather than what the scriptures say.And your statement…
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,15:17) whereas the people who believe in God, but reject the trinity, all seem to all have strong scriptural reasons
is simply biased to what you believe for you have simply rejected strong evidence in the scriptures in support of the the Trinity.WJ
Quote I think your statement… Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,15:17)
believe this simply because they're told to believe it,
pretty much sums up the JWs who believe what “Watchtower” says rather than what the scriptures say.
WJ, I think you missed what I was saying. Most JW's will give a string of scriptures explaining why they don't believe God is a trinity. Most who believe in the trinity do so only because this is what they were told to believe.Quote whereas the people who believe in God, but reject the trinity, all seem to all have strong scriptural reasons is simply biased to what you believe for you have simply rejected strong evidence in the scriptures in support of the the Trinity.
What I say is simply based on what I experience with ordinary people while in the ministry. I used to live in a very Catholic Community. They believe in the trinity. But they don't want to discuss “why” they believe this, because they don't have or know any scriptural reasons.
Hi WJ,
What evidence?
Did Jesus teach it or or the apostles and prophets?Can you stand apart from them?
Hi Ken
Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,06:15) a response to the Trinity part 1… LOL… in response to the charge that Trinitarianism “borrowed” from pagan sources…. while this is a tired old false argument…. it needs to be addressed again it seems…
lets first point out that Virgin Birth occurs in Pagan myths…. Perseus was supposedly born of a virgin…… but the Bible says that Jesus was born of a virgin too….. according to those who would want to say that we should reject the Trinity because it is based on “pagan” myths…. so I guess we had better get rid of the virgin birth !!!!! Its pagan in origin!!!!
a worldwide flood occurs in numerous pagan mythologies….. but the bible has a flood story too!!! best get rid of the flood story!!!
Besides, other Pagan religions are strict monotheistic religions…. Islam and Ba'hai…. so I guess since belief in absolute monotheism is pagan, so we had better get rid of the belief in one God too!!! LOL…..
As Walter Martin said “In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word. Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve.” (the New Cults p.49, cited at Come Let Us Reason)
Excellent points. Burned that straw house down.
Blessings!
Keith
Since it's nowhere to be found in the Bible, the obvious next question is: where did the idea come from?
Upon close examination, we find a boatload of things that “Christians” borrowed or incorporated into “Christianity.”
It just so happens the trinity is one of them.No one is saying: “The trinity is false because pagan's believed in a trinity.”
We're saying: “The trinity isn't in the Bible. It came from paganism”
Creating imaginary arguments that you can knock down is fun, but doesn't do a lot.
Hi Ken
Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,06:15)
“Have you really looked at all the scriptures that say who God is and who Jesus really is?”
I would ask this same question to anti-Trinitarians. At any rate, yes, I believe I have, but the bible is an incredible book, I have many things to study and learn, the riches of God's word is so vast that I definitely do not claim to know all that the bible teaches about Jesus, but I feel I can see with some confidence that I have at least looked at the most important sections of Scripture regarding Jesus' nature, and have, as a result of this study, come to believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God.“If you have challenged the trinity doctrine, was your mind
already made-up before you took this challenge?”
As I mentioned above, but will not say a bit more about… I was not raised in a Christian home… I do not believe anything because my mom or dad or friends or uncles or aunts or extended family believed…. I was very open to the Scriptures teaching, and thus early on studied the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, as well as other pseudo-Christian groups. My mind is pretty well made up now, to the consternation of many anti-Trinitarians I know , but it wasn't when i first became a Christian. Ok… on to the last question…When Yahshua came into my life I began to pray “Lord Jesus” forgive me of my sins and help me to be what you want.
Without any biblical upbringing or knowledge of the Trinity, I knew that day that Yahshua was and is my God.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23
Tiffany, can you see the equality of the nature of Jesus in this verse…?
…but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9
To continue in Jesus teaching is to continue in God's teaching.
When I preach the Gospel of God I do not say this is my Gospel. However, to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of God.
It’s quite simple. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of God because Jesus is God.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
The Bible is the Biography of God, and Jesus takes claim to it.
Keith
Quote (chosenone @ Nov. 12 2008,17:55) Mathmatics? Trinity should be 1×3=3
or
1+1+1=3 But God is one (1), not 3.
COThe plurality of oneness is in all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing that is, that is not plural in some sence. I challenge you to name one thing.
Even your equasion proves this.
1+1+1=3
The number three is “One Number”.
Get it?
Quote (music4two @ Feb. 11 2007,03:35) There are beliefs in some pagan cultures that to pick or cut flower from a field and give them to someone is a wish for them getting the plague. I have given my wife flowers many times, however I do not wish for my wife to get the plague. Should I stop giving flowers because some hold this as a pagan rite?
God judges by the heart. Your personal heart and not choices that other's try to put on you. God says to judge them by their fruits. I believe this is applicable to doctrines and practices as well as people.
If I do not associate the pagan rites as practiced 1000 years ago with the Christmas I share with my family today. What are the fruits of Christmas with my family?
A special and dedicated day in which to break bread, fellowship, laugh, bless others (with gifts) and remember together the fullfillment of God's promise of the coming of the messiah. If I do this on the 25 of December or on april fools day is of no consequence.
Those who say I cannot do this on 12/25 are actually giving power to the pagans that used that date of other purposes. They use say we cannot have celebration on certain days because of their association with pagan rites. The truth is — those who celebrate Christmas do not associate it with pagan rites. In fact the ones who institute rules about certain days reserved for pagan rites 1000 years ago are giving more thoughts to those pagan rites then the rest of us. They allow the pagan rites of 1000 years ago to controll what they do today.God desire for us to remember him and his great promises. He has great desire to see our families share loving times of giving and fellowship together. It is not reasonable to think that God is bothered by the fact that some foolish people, 1000 years ago, used that date for pagan rites.
Everyone wants to make God petty in his judgements. He is much bigger then that.Look at it this way —
One one hand — You have pagan rites of the winter soltace that were actively pursued 100s and 1000s of years ago but are rarely observed today. Most people do not even know that particular date was used for pagan rites. These rites practiced have no more power then carving an Idol out of a tree and making sacrifice to it.
So — 800 years ago you have a pagan man or culture who uses December 25 to clebrate some useless pagan rite.On the other hand — You have a man aware of the fact that Christ was not born on 12/25. He is also aware of the pagan rites once observe on that date.This man does not give honor to those pagan rites or run in fear of them, but uses December 25 to honor the precious gift of Christ’s birth and fullfillment of the messiah. He does so by gathering his friends and family together. Perhaps reading the story of Christ’s birth in scripture. Sharing fellowship and breaking bread together. Exchanging love gifts and well wishes. Even the members of the family that do not get along set asside their dissagreements and attempt to display the fruits of the Spirit toward one another. For some it may be the only day they do this in the whole year, but at least that day they do it. For others it may be one of the few days per year when they think about Christ and the gift of the messiah. This man uses this day to minister to his family about Christ and tells the wonderfull story of the messiah born 2000 years ago.
God’s response —- You evil man!!!! How dare you worship me, honor me, bless your famiily or witness for me on a day when others have honored pagan gods. Don’t you know you are giving power to these pagan gods when you honor me on that day?It does not matter what is happening in your heart or the hearts of your family.It does not matter that you have no conscious ihntention of honoring pagan gods. It does not matter that in your heart you are worshipping me. I do not judge by the heart, I judge by the law.
WOW!!! That certainly sounds like the God of the Bible! NOT!!!!!
A nice post Music4two, even if it is not about the Trinity.If all things that pagans do becomes unacceptable to God, then what happens if the pagans celebrate every day? The pagans could eat meat and we would have to abstain. The pagans could use the Internet and then we would have to stop using the Internet.
I think it is just silly to let pagans dictate what you can and can't do.
Are you listening david? You might learn something here.
Hi David
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,17:19) WJ, I think you missed what I was saying. Most JW's will give a string of scriptures explaining why they don't believe God is a trinity. Most who believe in the trinity do so only because this is what they were told to believe.
And just how do you know what is in the hearts of millions of believers?Millions of believers believe Jesus died for their sins but know nothing about the details of Jesus being the fulfillment of the Mosaic feast. Your statement is weak and your accusation is untrue and not based on facts for there is no way you can know why millions of believers believe what they do.
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,17:19) What I say is simply based on what I experience with ordinary people while in the ministry. I used to live in a very Catholic Community. They believe in the trinity. But they don't want to discuss “why” they believe this, because they don't have or know any scriptural reasons. Yes, and I have talked to many JWs who won't talk to me very long because my knowledge of the scripture goes beyond their “watchtower” teachings.
WJ
Hi WJ,
But your so called knowledge includes the unscriptural trinity.
Does adding to truth not cause you to rethink your boasting?Quote And just how do you know what is in the hearts of millions of believers? I have been under the belief that “believers” believe the Bible, and believe Jesus. If Jesus said to “Go and make disciples” yet these are reluctant to even discuss Jesus or the Bible, how am I to take that?
Quote Millions of believers believe Jesus died for their sins but know nothing about the details of Jesus being the fulfillment of the Mosaic feast. Your statement is weak and your accusation is untrue and not based on facts for there is no way you can know why millions of believers believe what they do.
Perhaps I can't know why they believe what they do. But I do know “the Bible” isn't the reason for the vast vast vast majority. (Which leaves “tradition” “easy road” “my parents did” “majority is right” etc)Quote Yes, and I have talked to many JWs who won't talk to me very long because my knowledge of the scripture goes beyond their “watchtower” teachings.
Listen, in the ministry, our commission is to preach the good news of the kingdom, and to make disciples. It's not to win arguments against people such as yourself, although that is fun too.You may have talked to a couple JW's who didn't feel like having one of those days, but I've talked to hundreds or thousands of people. I feel very confident in the number 96% and stand by it.
Man says God is a Trinity.
God doesn't say that HE is a Trinity.
The Trinity doesn't say anything because it is a figment of the imaginations of men.God is one, not triune.
God is a HE, not THEM.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 12 2008,19:12) Man says God is a Trinity.
God doesn't say that HE is a Trinity.
The Trinity doesn't say anything because it is a figment of the imaginations of men.God is one, not triune.
God is a HE, not THEM.
Hi t8Nice creed you have there t8.
But your creed does not hold up against scripture that claims Jesus is God.
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,18:56) Quote And just how do you know what is in the hearts of millions of believers? I have been under the belief that “believers” believe the Bible, and believe Jesus. If Jesus said to “Go and make disciples” yet these are reluctant to even discuss Jesus or the Bible, how am I to take that?
Quote Millions of believers believe Jesus died for their sins but know nothing about the details of Jesus being the fulfillment of the Mosaic feast. Your statement is weak and your accusation is untrue and not based on facts for there is no way you can know why millions of believers believe what they do.
Perhaps I can't know why they believe what they do. But I do know “the Bible” isn't the reason for the vast vast vast majority. (Which leaves “tradition” “easy road” “my parents did” “majority is right” etc)Quote Yes, and I have talked to many JWs who won't talk to me very long because my knowledge of the scripture goes beyond their “watchtower” teachings.
Listen, in the ministry, our commission is to preach the good news of the kingdom, and to make disciples. It's not to win arguments against people such as yourself, although that is fun too.You may have talked to a couple JW's who didn't feel like having one of those days, but I've talked to hundreds or thousands of people. I feel very confident in the number 96% and stand by it.
Hi DavidI would say that 100% of the JWs believe what “Watchtower” says over the Bible.
This is what they are taught David. In fact they are not allowed to use their own mind to interpret the scriptures but must let Watchtower do it for them.
Isn't that true David? So get off your high horse in accusing Trinitarians of only following what some one tells them when this is exactly what your organization does.
Laughable!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus did not tell you to believe in any trinity. That teaching is not in the bible.
So how can you accuse David?Quote So get off your high horse in accusing Trinitarians of only following what some one tells them when this is exactly what your organization does. –WJ
IT IS SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT……
That most trinitarians have no clue in the least, whatsoever to any degree, how to back up their beliefs in the trinity, using scripture.
SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
JW's do know that scripturally the trinity is not in there. They've checked.
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2008,16:21) Quote So get off your high horse in accusing Trinitarians of only following what some one tells them when this is exactly what your organization does. –WJ
IT IS SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT……
That most trinitarians have no clue in the least, whatsoever to any degree, how to back up their beliefs in the trinity, using scripture.
SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
JW's do know that scripturally the trinity is not in there. They've checked.
Hi DavidThe fact is the JWs are blinded by the god of this world (who is no god at all to a true Monotheistic believer), in reducing Jesus to simply being another mere man or prophet or an incarnate angel, when in fact Jesus is the visible image of God, and to see him or know him as less than God is to have a false understanding and image of who God is.
WJ
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