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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,16:50) Hi E,
Is this trinity taught in scripture or is it your own deduction?
topicalQuote (david @ Oct. 31 2008,18:35) WJ, I'm looking for those “apostolic fathers” threads you gave a while back, supposedly showing that they believed Jesus is God Almighty. I can't find them. Could you help? Or do you have the links somewhere? 
[edit… just saw the copyright so I will erase my earlier post and just leave you with the link to the site and not give any portion of the information as I had originally done… so david, this is a response to your question concerning the early church fathers and how they believed Jesus was God]
however…. since Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians is not copyrighted I will be able to include the portion you would be interested in seeing….
Quote who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who “raised Him from the dead”. The above is from a direct refutation of the Watchtower organization's tract “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” and can be read in it's entirety at http://www.risenjesus.com/index.p….mid=109
hope this helps
blessings,
KenHello E Coming out of the Catholic Church I find that I am well qualified what the trinity doctrine is. However it is not scriptural. Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I. Trinity doctrine says they are all equal.
Ephesians 4:6 states that the Father is above all.
IreneQUINTUS SEPTIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN
Who was Tertullian? And why is he so important to these studies? Tertullian
was born to pagan parents, in Carthage North Africa, in the year 155 A.D. He was educated in philosophy, and in Greek and Latin Literature; he also studied law. He became greatly interested in Christianity, because he admired those Christians that were willing to die for their faith, something he had not witnessed before in any other religion. In 193 A.D. he became a Christian himself, and devoted his time to the study of scripture. And by using his knowledge of Law, Literature and Philosophy, he became the great defender of the Christians, against the pagan State, the Jews and several heretic sects. He is credited with becoming one of the greatest early Christian writers. It is said, that his doctrine of the trinity, finds its best expression in his late work “Adversus Praxean”. His doctrine of the trinity? Absolutely! He was a very educated and intelligent man, at a time when most people didn’t know how to read or write. He would have known about other religion just as we do today. He would have known about the triad god of the Egyptians, as he would have known about the triad god’s of the Babylonians and others; and there were others. The Romans themselves had dozens of god’s, and in India today are as many gods as there are people. To make the Christian God a trinity, came almost natural, it made this religion more popular. That is why it is said of him, that in his doctrine of the trinity and Christology, he made his greatest contribution to theology. What is theology and Christology? It is mans study and interpretation of God and his Son, in short, the doctrines of men. You have to ask yourself, why did the Church forbid the reading of the bible, under penalty of death? One reason is for sure, it was easier to fool and control people. But what is our excuse? Do we not have a bible? Do we not know how to read? Do we face execution for reading the bible? Just who is it that is telling us God is a trinity? It is not Christ in his gospel. Does the word of God count for nothing?
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he isGod; there is none else beside him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel; The LORD our God is one LORD.”
1 Cor. 8:4 “… and that there is none other God but one.”
Why is it so hard to believe the truth, and so easy to believe a lie?
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Paul gives a warning too.
Gal. 1:9 “As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”Those are strong words, and should not be taken lightly.
Tertullian also writes a book for widows in which he explains why they should not remarry. Then he writes a second book in which he explains why it is all right to remarry. Then he writes yet a third book in which he claims, to remarry is against the will of God and is adulterous to do so. In his later years he left the Christian Church. And this is the man that tells us there is a trinity??? This is also the man of whom it is said that “ his doctrine of the Holy Eucharist “, the Mass sacrifices, the abomination that makes desolate, has been much discussed. His doctrine; I’m shaking my head. Why is it that men of such questionable character receive so much credibility? Tertullian died around 230 A. D., whether we realize it or not, tradition is a powerful enemy. We can be so entrenched in it, that we are willing to fight for it, even kill for it; and we make ourselves believe we worship God.
Mat. 15:9 “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
Growing in grace and knowledge requires an open mind, but not necessarily an all believing one. It is every ones responsibility to make sure, you were told the truth. The Bereans were taught by the Apostles, and they checked them out. Shouldn’t we be doing the same?
Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
This is not just a simple suggestion.An Article that my Husband wrote
Peace and Love Irenealso david… for your reading pleasure… and hey.. btw… doesn't the Watchtower organization frown on you reading non-Watchtower literature…? anyways… Ignatius, John's disciple, writing only 10 years after John died…. wrote:
““We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ …” (The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)
and
“…God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)
and
“For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.” ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)
and
“For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father”. ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)and
“Nor less alienated from the true confession are those who hold not the doctrine of the Trinity according to truth,” (A Sectional Confession of the Faith, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus, AD 262)etc etc
Hi E,
Why not rely on what is written in scripture?
Do these men you quote have equal veracity to you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,18:34) Hi E,
Why not rely on what is written in scripture?
Do these men you quote have equal veracity to you?
Nick, don't you carefully read anything..?. these posts were not for you… they were for DAVID, who SPECIFICALLY asked for evidence from the Early Church that Jesus was God, he asked for proof that Jesus was the “Almighty God” and I am still looking for that exact phrase…he wrote on Oct. 31 2008,18:35
Quote WJ, I'm looking for those “apostolic fathers” threads you gave a while back, supposedly showing that they believed Jesus is God Almighty. I can't find them. Could you help? Or do you have the links somewhere? …… but in the meantime, even if I never found that exact phrase, I am already satisfied in that I think I have already shown enough to prove that at least some of the early church fathers believed that Jesus was God, and they believed in a Trinity … of course, ultimately it only matters what the Scriptures say, that is my final authority, but it is interesting to me, and apparently to david, what the earliest Christians believed about Jesus' deity and the Trinity.
Now if you do not care what the early church fathers believed, that is perfectly fine, but don't go complaining about historical information I provided to someone who asked for it, that is just absurd…. you may be a mod here, but this does not give you the power to dictate to others what theirs interests must be….
and since I never said directly or indirectly that the early church fathers have equal authority to the Scriptures, please do not presume I do, do not put words in my mouth that I do, please don't erect more straw men to fight suggesting I do with your pet method of asking questions…. etc etc…. we have enough to argue about without you creating issues where there are none…
blessings,
KenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,18:10) Hi E,
So if you cannot find this trinity written why do you uphold those who promote it?
topicalQuote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 09 2008,18:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,18:10) Hi E,
So if you cannot find this trinity written why do you uphold those who promote it?
topical
You are the one who does not read right, and are ignoring too. There are plenty of articles besides what my Husband wrote about the trinity.Hi E,
So if scripture is the final authority and no trinity is found there
why would you give any credence to the implied thoughts of any men of any age that there is one?They are not the final authority are they?
Quote (Tiffany @ Nov. 09 2008,18:14) Hello E Coming out of the Catholic Church I find that I am well qualified what the trinity doctrine is. However it is not scriptural. Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I. Trinity doctrine says they are all equal.
Ephesians 4:6 states that the Father is above all.
Irene
topicalIn 1 Cor 11:3 man is called the “head” of woman.. the Greek word there is “kephale” and according to The Exegetical Dictionary to the New testament it means “leader, chief, master”, or, in other words, man is “greater” than woman….. are you in agreement with that? But, what this means is that in terms of the roles within the family, the man is greater than the woman, she is to be submissive to him in a godly fashion… but… BUT… this in no way means that somehow men are inherently better than women, now does it? Of course not. So too as far as the Son and the Father are concerned… Jesus, the Scripture tells us quite clearly, willingly took on the form of a servant and became submissive to the Father in terms of His role in redemption.
Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV) 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
The Father is not “greater” than the Son in some inherent way any more than a man is greater than a woman in some inherent way.
“JOHN 14:28—Did Jesus think of himself as less than God?
MISINTERPRETATION: Jesus said in John 14:28, “The Father is greater than I.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses say this verse proves that Jesus is a lesser god than the Father. Because Jehovah is “greater” than Jesus, Jesus cannot be God Almighty (Let God Be True, 1946, 110).
According to Christian Science, this verse proves that “Christ is not God, but an impartation of Him,” just as “one ray of light is light, and it is one with light, but it is not the full-orbed sun” (Eddy, 1901, 8).
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: The Father is greater than the Son by office, but not by nature, since both are God (see John 1:1; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28). Just as an earthly father is equally human with but holds a higher office than his son, even so the Father and the Son in the Trinity are equal in essence, but different in function. There is no contradiction in affirming ontological equality and functional hierarchy. In like manner, we speak of the President of our country as being greater, not by virtue of his character or nature, but by virtue of his position. Jesus cannot ever be said to say that he considered himself anything less than God by nature. The following summary helps to crystallize the differences:Jesus Equal to the Father Jesus Is Less Than the Father
In essence In function
In nature In office
In character In position
As God As manGeisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. (1997). When cultists ask : A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (184). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
“John 14:28
“ … If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (kjv)
This is a favorite verse for Jehovah’s Witnesses arguing against the deity of Christ. They begin by quoting from the Athanasian Creed: “And in this Trinity none is afore, or after an other; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.” Then they will read Jesus’ words about the Father being greater than the Son, rather than “equal,” as that creed says.
Don’t let JWs lure you into this trap. Remind them that Jesus was speaking at a time when he had done as stated at Philippians 2:6–7: “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (kjv). Naturally, then, Christ could speak of the Father as being “greater than I.” The Son had even become “lower than the angels,” in order to act as the Savior of mankind (Heb. 2:9).
See also the discussions of Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1; John 20:28; and Revelation 1:7–8.Reed, D. A. (1997, c1986). Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered verse by verse. Includes indexes. (79). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
I hope this clears up and puts to rest the whole “the father is greater” type of argument, for it nowhere comes near proving that Jesus is not God…
blessings,
KenTiffany, you wrote
Quote Who was Tertullian? And why is he so important to these studies? I just wrote to Nick the following:
Quote Nick, don't you carefully read anything..?. these posts were not for you… they were for DAVID, who SPECIFICALLY asked for evidence from the Early Church that Jesus was God, he asked for proof that Jesus was the “Almighty God” and I am still looking for that exact phrase… ….. but in the meantime, even if I never found that exact phrase, I am already satisfied in that I think I have already shown enough to prove that at least some of the early church fathers believed that Jesus was God, and they believed in a Trinity … of course, ultimately it only matters what the Scriptures say, that is my final authority, but it is interesting to me, and apparently to david, what the earliest Christians believed about Jesus' deity and the Trinity. So… did you get that Tiffany…? The early church fathers are not…. NOT… equal in authority to the apostles/disciples…. sola scriptura!!! Scripture is my final authority in all matters pertaining to life, doctrine and conduct…. the members of the early church were fallible sinners who's words must be measured against the scriptures….. the ONLY reason I posted the info I did was because david asked for it….
blessings,
KenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,18:59) Hi E,
So if scripture is the final authority and no trinity is found there
why would you give any credence to the implied thoughts of any men of any age that there is one?They are not the final authority are they?
deerrrrrr because, in my opinion, and in the opinion of literally millions of other Christians, trinity is found in the scriptures… there…. now that wasn't so difficult, was it? or was that really difficult for you to figure out…? Remember now, I am not asking for your agreement, I don't need it and for the moment, do not care what you think about the trinity… this is really a matter of simple deduction N, if I say
1) sola scriptura
and
2) trinity
then
3) ought to be really simple for you to figure out, namely
3) trinity is found in the scripturesand again you show your lack of ability to read well… you said
Quote They are not the final authority are they? but I said in the earlier post
“of course, ultimately it only matters what the Scriptures say, that is my final authority,”
and
“and since I never said directly or indirectly that the early church fathers have equal authority to the Scriptures, please do not presume I do, do not put words in my mouth that I do, please don't erect more straw men to fight suggesting I do with your pet method of asking questions…. etc etc…. we have enough to argue about without you creating issues where there are none…”please actually read posts before you begin writing your questions… this would save us both a lot of time and certainly raise your credibility level somewhat, as it is, you look rather foolish asking a question I had just directly answered….
blessings,
KenQuote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 09 2008,19:46) deerrrrrr because, in my opinion, and in the opinion of literally millions of other Christians, trinity is found in the scriptures… there…. now that wasn't so difficult, was it? or was that really difficult for you to figure out…?
And your point is what?
That millions makes it right?What about scientists whom many are taken in by another doctrine called evolution?
Are they right too?Do you not know that the world is under the sway of the evil one? Surely trusting in mens philosophies is only going to appease the god of this age.
Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 09 2008,19:19) Quote (Tiffany @ Nov. 09 2008,18:14) Hello E Coming out of the Catholic Church I find that I am well qualified what the trinity doctrine is. However it is not scriptural. Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I. Trinity doctrine says they are all equal.
Ephesians 4:6 states that the Father is above all.
Irene
topicalIn 1 Cor 11:3 man is called the “head” of woman.. the Greek word there is “kephale” and according to The Exegetical Dictionary to the New testament it means “leader, chief, master”, or, in other words, man is “greater” than woman….. are you in agreement with that? But, what this means is that in terms of the roles within the family, the man is greater than the woman, she is to be submissive to him in a godly fashion… but… BUT… this in no way means that somehow men are inherently better than women, now does it? Of course not. So too as far as the Son and the Father are concerned… Jesus, the Scripture tells us quite clearly, willingly took on the form of a servant and became submissive to the Father in terms of His role in redemption.
Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV) 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
The Father is not “greater” than the Son in some inherent way any more than a man is greater than a woman in some inherent way.
“JOHN 14:28—Did Jesus think of himself as less than God?
MISINTERPRETATION: Jesus said in John 14:28, “The Father is greater than I.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses say this verse proves that Jesus is a lesser god than the Father. Because Jehovah is “greater” than Jesus, Jesus cannot be God Almighty (Let God Be True, 1946, 110).
According to Christian Science, this verse proves that “Christ is not God, but an impartation of Him,” just as “one ray of light is light, and it is one with light, but it is not the full-orbed sun” (Eddy, 1901, 8).
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: The Father is greater than the Son by office, but not by nature, since both are God (see John 1:1; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28). Just as an earthly father is equally human with but holds a higher office than his son, even so the Father and the Son in the Trinity are equal in essence, but different in function. There is no contradiction in affirming ontological equality and functional hierarchy. In like manner, we speak of the President of our country as being greater, not by virtue of his character or nature, but by virtue of his position. Jesus cannot ever be said to say that he considered himself anything less than God by nature. The following summary helps to crystallize the differences:Jesus Equal to the Father Jesus Is Less Than the Father
In essence In function
In nature In office
In character In position
As God As manGeisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. (1997). When cultists ask : A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (184). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
“John 14:28
“ … If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (kjv)
This is a favorite verse for Jehovah’s Witnesses arguing against the deity of Christ. They begin by quoting from the Athanasian Creed: “And in this Trinity none is afore, or after an other; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.” Then they will read Jesus’ words about the Father being greater than the Son, rather than “equal,” as that creed says.
Don’t let JWs lure you into this trap. Remind them that Jesus was speaking at a time when he had done as stated at Philippians 2:6–7: “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (kjv). Naturally, then, Christ could speak of the Father as being “greater than I.” The Son had even become “lower than the angels,” in order to act as the Savior of mankind (Heb. 2:9).
See also the discussions of Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1; John 20:28; and Revelation 1:7–8.Reed, D. A. (1997, c1986). Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered verse by verse. Includes indexes. (79). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
I hope this clears up and puts to rest the whole “the father is greater” type of argument, for it nowhere comes near proving that Jesus is not God…
blessings,
Ken
Let me just take one thing. You ask if I am in agreement that the man is greater the the woman. Yes He is. The Head of woman is man and head of the man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God.
1Corinth. 11:3 I take scripture the way it is written not like some man might interpet to be.
Not only that Jesus gives the Kingdom back to God in the end.
IreneHi E,
So your beliefs are founded only on what scripture teaches?
Where is this bizarre trinity taught?Hi E,
You said in another thread
“Lastly, I know very well that the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Scriptures, but the teaching and principle does.”
Where?” Show me anywhere in the Bible that it says we will have only 66 books and the only books we will have are those listed in today's Protestant bibles, in the table of contents. Since you can't do that, since no such scripture exists, I'll not worry too deeply about accepting principles that may be found in the Scriptures (cessation of new revelation) such as those who prove that God is triune, which means 3 in person, but one in being, you can see an example of this in this complicated mathematical problem:
1x1x1=1″
So you have PROOF but not from what is taught?
Your maths is meant to support such proof?
Does Jesus agree with your approach?
Quote in my opinion, and in the opinion of literally millions of other Christians, trinity is found in the scriptures… there…. now that wasn't so difficult, was it? or was that really difficult for you to figure out…? And in my opinion, 96% of the people who believe that the trinity is found in scripture, believe this simply because they're told to believe it, whereas the people who believe in God, but reject the trinity, all seem to all have strong scriptural reasons.
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