The Trinity Doctrine

[Oxy]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,12:25)

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

I think these Scriptures clearly shown the origin and birth of Jesus.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,10:25)

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary?

Mandy..my friend…

answer me this:

If Jesus did not Pre-exist…who helped his father create the universe?…The bible says thru Jesus all things were created..so if he did not pre-exist..what do those verses mean?

[gollamudi]

Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 01 2008,05:09)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,10:25) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary? Mandy..my friend… answer me this: If Jesus did not Pre-exist…who helped his father create the universe?…The bible says thru Jesus all things were created..so if he did not pre-exist..what do those verses mean?

Hi brother DK, bible says One God created this whole universe and there was no one else besides Him at that time. How do you force texts to prove Jesus was there with God when He created this universe unless the scriptures controdict themselves?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Were the sons of God not rejoicing when the foundations of earth were laid?
[Jb38]

[Tiffany]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,22:23)

Hi GM, Were the sons of God not rejoicing when the foundations of earth were laid? [Jb38]

Yes Sir they were shouting for joy.
Question to you though, would anybody shout for an empty and void earth?
Something happend first. Right?

[david]

Quote

bible says One God created this whole universe and there was no one else besides Him at that time.

I'm wondering where it says this, Gollamudi?

In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.”

Who was he speaking to when he said this at the beginning of the creation of the universe?

“This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.”

And

“All things [besides himself of course] came into existence through him.”

Of course, the Bible does say God is king of eternity, and he existed by himself before anyone. But it seems that the Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of creation.”

[Not3in1]

But David,
We are not made in the image of Jesus, we are made in the image of God.

God himself said that he was ALONE when he laid the foundations of the world. ALONE! If Jesus was there, he sure didn't get any credit. God said that with his own hand he marked out and laid the foundations.

Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 31 2008,17:52)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,12:25) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary? Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2  He  was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. Joh 1:4  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5  And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. Joh 1:6  There was a man sent from God; his name was John. Joh 1:7  This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him. Joh 1:8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. Joh 1:9  He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him. Joh 1:11  He came to His own, and His own received Him not. Joh 1:12  But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, Joh 1:13  who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth. I think these Scriptures clearly shown the origin and birth of Jesus.

If the Word became flesh, what was he before that?

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 01 2008,05:09)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,10:25) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary? Mandy..my friend… answer me this: If Jesus did not Pre-exist…who helped his father create the universe?…The bible says thru Jesus all things were created..so if he did not pre-exist..what do those verses mean?

Did God need help? Where have you read that?

God marked-out and laid the foundations of the world WITH HIS OWN HAND. He has told us that HE WAS ALONE.

Thanks,
Mandy

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 02 2008,18:11)

Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 01 2008,05:09) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 31 2008,10:25) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:50) Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God.  Joh 1:1 Was “Jesus” the Word spoken of in John 1:1?  How do you know it was J E S U S? To my knowledge, J E S U S wasn't alive until he was born of Mary? Mandy..my friend… answer me this: If Jesus did not Pre-exist…who helped his father create the universe?…The bible says thru Jesus all things were created..so if he did not pre-exist..what do those verses mean? Did God need help?  Where have you read that? God marked-out and laid the foundations of the world WITH HIS OWN HAND.  He has told us that HE WAS ALONE. Thanks, Mandy

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

I know you don't believe in the trinity so who was God talking to in this scripture?

John 1:2-3..2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If GOD was not talking to Jesus in Genesis then explain the above verse?

John 3:17…17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Why use the word send? Does that not imply he came from somewhere? If what you say is true shouldn't this verse read more like…”For God did not have his son born into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him”

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 … 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Explain how they did this if Christ was not yet in physical existence?

Colossians 1:15-17… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I'm sure you have a good answer for the last question so what does verse 16 mean here?

Philippians 2:7… 7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Does not the phrase, “made himself nothing, taking the very nature”…imply that he had another nature before? If not, why the use of the words “made” and “taking”? Does not this verse clearly show a physical CHANGE took place?

Just for reference:

nature- 1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence b: disposition, temperament

Notice that word “constitution”..lets reference that

constitution- 2 a: the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body b: the structure, composition, physical makeup, or nature of something

Now think about this for a moment…Could this scripture at Phillipians be true if Jesus did not Pre-exist?

Hebrews 1:1-2…1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Same question as the last?

[Lightenup]

Hi all,

Here might be something else to chew on:

Isa 48:16
“Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

And this passage (notice the switch from you did this and he did that, sounds like two were involved):
Ps 104

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.
5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth.
10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works.
14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the LORD drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
18 The high mountains are for the wild goats; The cliffs are a refuge for the shephanim. 19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey And seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw And lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work And to his labor until evening.
24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; The earth is full of Your possessions. 25 There is the sea, great and broad, In which are swarms without number, Animals both small and great. 26 There the ships move along, And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.
27 They all wait for You To give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good. 29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.
31 Let the glory of the LORD endure forever; Let the LORD be glad in His works; 32 He looks at the earth, and it trembles; He touches the mountains, and they smoke. 33 I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. 34 Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD. 35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth And let the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul. Praise the LORD!
NASU

I particularly like this:
He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind;

I have 4 sons and if they were there during creation I can totally see them trying to ride the clouds and surfing the wind. It sounds so playful to me.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
A fascinating verse.
Isa 48:16
“Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

So the ME is not the Lord God.
There are two times mentioned, the FIRST and NOW.
The speaker has spoken openly, and been sent as well as God's Spirit.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
I know. I thought you might like this one.
LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2008,11:41)

Quote bible says One God created this whole universe and there was no one else besides Him at that time. I'm wondering where it says this, Gollamudi? In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.”  Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” Who was he speaking to when he said this at the beginning of the creation of the universe? “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.”   And “All things [besides himself of course] came into existence through him.” Of course, the Bible does say God is king of eternity, and he existed by himself before anyone.  But it seems that the Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of creation.”

Hi brother David,
So you don't believe these wonderful scriptures you want to choose to ignore them ?

1. Is 44:24
“Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?”

2. Is 45:

5 “I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me. It is I who arm you, though you know me not,
6 so that toward the rising and the setting of the sun men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other;
7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things”.

3. Is 45:
12 “It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it; It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host”.

4. Is 45:
18 “For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other”.

5.Is 45:
21 “Come here and declare in counsel together: Who announced this from the beginning and foretold it from of old? Was it not I, the LORD, besides whom there is no other God? There is no just and saving God but me.
22 Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!
23 By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear”

6. Mk 12:
29 Jesus replied, “The first is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!
30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 The scribe said to him, “Well said, teacher. You are right in saying, 'He is One and there is no other than he.'
33 And 'to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself' is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 And when Jesus saw that (he) answered with understanding, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to ask him any more questions.

7. Mk 10:6
“But God made them male and female in the beginning, at creation”.

So you are not agreeing with all these scriptures which voice themselves that God alone created this universe without anyone's help. But you want to prove that Jesus was pre-existing and helped God in creation. Let bible controdict itself then to prove such dogma.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi DK,

You had a lot going on in that one post to me. Let me make mention of the NIV Study Bible and one of it's explainations of the “Let's make man in our image…” passage. Take a look at it and see what you think.

Thanks,
Mandy

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 03 2008,17:23)

Hi DK, You had a lot going on in that one post to me.  Let me make mention of the NIV Study Bible and one of it's explainations of the “Let's make man in our image…” passage.  Take a look at it and see what you think. Thanks, Mandy

I am familiar with the NIV study bible..the problem I have is that you don't see any other case of GOD speaking in some “kingly third person” anywhere else in scripture

[david]

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:13)

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2008,11:41) Quote bible says One God created this whole universe and there was no one else besides Him at that time. I'm wondering where it says this, Gollamudi? In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” Who was he speaking to when he said this at the beginning of the creation of the universe? “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things [besides himself of course] came into existence through him.” Of course, the Bible does say God is king of eternity, and he existed by himself before anyone. But it seems that the Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of creation.” Hi brother David, So you don't believe these wonderful scriptures you want to choose to ignore them ? 1. Is 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?” 2. Is 45: 5 “I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me. It is I who arm you, though you know me not, 6 so that toward the rising and the setting of the sun men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other; 7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things”. 3. Is 45: 12 “It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it; It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host”. 4. Is 45: 18 “For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other”. 5.Is 45: 21 “Come here and declare in counsel together: Who announced this from the beginning and foretold it from of old? Was it not I, the LORD, besides whom there is no other God? There is no just and saving God but me. 22 Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other! 23 By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear” 6. Mk 12: 29 Jesus replied, “The first is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! 30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to him, “Well said, teacher. You are right in saying, 'He is One and there is no other than he.' 33 And 'to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself' is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that (he) answered with understanding, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to ask him any more questions. 7. Mk 10:6 “But God made them male and female in the beginning, at creation”. So you are not agreeing with all these scriptures which voice themselves that God alone created this universe without anyone's help. But you want to prove that Jesus was pre-existing and helped God in creation. Let bible controdict itself then to prove such dogma. Thanks and peace to you Adam

Hi Gollamudi.

Of course, you didn't make reference to the scriptures I quoted. I understand.
As for your scriptures, the ones you quoted, I agree that God is the Creator and that he is responsible for creation. But none of these scriptures disagree with what I was saying. The only one that would even seem to disagree is the first one of course. The rest, in no way disagree to the slightest with what I said. In Isaiah 44:24, does it say that no one at all was with him? Or does it ask: Who was with me?
Of course, if we look at the context of that scripture, it is explaining the absurdity of man-made idols and comparing them with Jehovah, the true God.

Now, can you address the scriptures I gave, Gollundi?

[david]

Quote

If the Word became flesh, what was he before that?

A spirit.

[david]

Quote

God himself said that he was ALONE when he laid the foundations of the world. ALONE! If Jesus was there, he sure didn't get any credit.

Mandy, Of course there is a scripture that says something like this. I'm wondering which one it is. Could you please name it?

[david]

Quote

God said that with his own hand he marked out and laid the foundations.

Again, I'd like to actually see the scripture. What I do know is that Jehovah's “arm” and “finger” are his spirit. And I know that Jesus would ask for God's spirit when performing miracles.

Question:
If a bazillionaire decides to build a building, and he has someone else do the actual work, but has that one use the bazillionaires resources, could it not be said that it was built by the bazillionaire? (even though he didn't do the work)

Donald Trump builtd that building. We talk like that all the time.
Of course, we know donald didn't touch a hammer.
But he was the power behind it.
He could easily say: “I built this building.”

If you want a scriptural equivalent, there's many scriptures that say Solomon built the temple. Well, he was behind it, but he didn't build it of course.

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