The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi WJ,
Two so far then but you tell us there is one with three persons??

August 18, 2008 at 11:19 pm#108700

Participant

Nick I think you do have a good point here.

Keith, if God is indeed three persons why didn't John 1:1 include the third person as being “with” God in the beginning?

I've never thought of that! Could it be we have an original question being asked on the Trinity thread?

Mandy

August 18, 2008 at 11:33 pm#108701

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,11:19)

Nick I think you do have a good point here.

Keith, if God is indeed three persons why didn't John 1:1 include the third person as being “with” God in the beginning?

I've never thought of that! Could it be we have an original question being asked on the Trinity thread?

Mandy

John tells a story. Starting with the Word being with God then later the Word/God comes in the flesh, then later Yeshua mentions the Spirit as being “another”.

John 1:1 In the beginning , I believe John is calling on the Genesis account in which the Spirit moved upon the face of the Waters.

There is no one scripture that can prove the Trinity, just like there is no one scripture that can show all the attributes of God, yet the concept is found in scriptures and confirmed with Yeshua's own words when he mentions the three in Matt 28:19 and the Apostles words when they call Yeshua God as Paul when he says….

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

With the definite article and the Grandville Sharp rule, this scripture as well as 1 Peter 1:1 is unambiguous.

The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

Source

August 18, 2008 at 11:35 pm#108702

Participant

Hi WJ,
So you cannot prove the trinity with three verses or even one.
But you rely on it?

August 18, 2008 at 11:38 pm#108703

Participant

Hi WJ,
Should your devotion to the unproveable theory rate alongside the proven scriptural truths we all can share?

Or should you let what you cannot prove divide us from you?

August 18, 2008 at 11:51 pm#108704

Participant

Thanks Keith,

But there are cases to be made against the GSR and the definite article.

What I would like to know is why John left out the third person of God “in the beginning”? If in the beginning the “Spirit” hovered the water's and you believe this to be the third person of God, why didn't John say, “In the beginning the Spirit was there along with the Word and they are God.” Something along those lines would have included the whole gang and left no room for questions.

August 19, 2008 at 4:00 am#108705

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,11:01)

Hi WJ,
Mine reads rather
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It does not say GOD was with GOD
that would make two GODS and we know your anxieties about that.

So what of a “trinity member” anointing another, with a third while only one is called God?[acts 10.38]

Nick………it does not say in the beginning Jesus was with GOD either which is what you believe.

in my opinion both preexistences and trinitarians are wrong, and are constructing the text to meat their own personal theologies.

peace ………….gene

August 19, 2008 at 4:10 am#108706

Participant

Hi GB,
No it does not.
But John spoke of the Word he met in 1 Jn1
and the Word comes again in might in Rev19

August 19, 2008 at 4:20 am#108707

Participant

Nick……..so John could not have Just said Jesus, but in your opinion had to hid it in Rev 19.

I think your stretching it Nick. I my opinion John said exactly what he meant to say and i have no problem with it just as it is stated, So why do trinitarians and preexistences do then. Face it you need to do that to support both your theologies. Interesting to me and Adam and some others it is perfectly clear just as it is written but to you and other you have to reconstruct the text to fit you beliefs, interesting.

August 19, 2008 at 4:35 am#108708

Participant

Hi GB,
1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

August 19, 2008 at 4:44 am#108709

Participant

Nick……yes, so whats that got to do with what we are talking about.

August 19, 2008 at 10:30 am#108710

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,02:58)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 18 2008,19:38)

Hey how about some posts, I am waiting for the 12000 one so I can close this topic and start the sequel.

Maybe there should be a prize for the 12000 post?

Or maybe WJ could call all those who believe that the Father is the one true God a bunch of Polytheists as he has done in the past. That would surely ignite a few posts.

Maybe you can cite where I made such a statement.

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 18 2008,19:38)

…call all those who believe that the Father is the one true God a bunch of Polytheists as he has done in the past.

If you can't then your statement would be considered bearing false witness.

That would mean that you are a liar!

OK.

Quote

Hi All!

In their attempt to explain away the NT scriptures and Apostles calling Yeshua “True God”, t8 as well as others on this sight insist that there is more than “One True God”, and that there are other smaller true gods.

This is blatant Polytheism or Henotheism at best, and is contrary to the Hebrew scriptures!

Here you said that I am saying that there is more than one true God. That I have never said. I have said that the Father is the one true God and that there are those who have the quality of theos or are indeed theos such as the Theos of this Age. But in all the uses of Theos, there is still one true God, the Father. He is the one who is above all, even above the Lord Jesus Christ.

Similarly, in sentence construct there is one Devil but many devils. The devils have the nature or character of the Devil.

There is also one Adam and his nature is shared by all adams (men).

Yet even though I have always taught blatantly that there is one God the Father, and also taught that there is one Spirit, even one Devil and one Adam (and a second Adam) you call me a polytheist, when all I am doing is explaining what is written.

The quote above is one of your examples.

August 19, 2008 at 3:19 pm#108711

Participant

Jesus called his FATHER God.

Jesus never called himself God.
Jesus never called the Spirit God.

Why believe the Trinity?

August 19, 2008 at 3:46 pm#108712

Irene

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,03:19)

Jesus called his FATHER God.

Jesus never called himself God.
Jesus never called the Spirit God.

Why believe the Trinity?

Good question, which I have asked our Son in so many words, but the God of this world has blinded them.
When one sees all it seems so clear, but to them it is not.
t8 is right in His assessment. The Father is above all Ephesians 4:6.
Peace and Love Irene

August 30, 2008 at 7:50 am#108713

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,05:19)

Jesus called his FATHER God.

Jesus never called himself God.
Jesus never called the Spirit God.

Why believe the Trinity?

Interesting to note that Jesus WAS God. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Then then Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.

But the question I have is, did the Father answer His Son's prayer?Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

August 30, 2008 at 6:55 pm#108714

Participant

Oxy……the Glory Jesus had with the Father was the foreordained Glory He would recieve not something He actually had before he was ever born on earth, as some would want you to believe. Jesus was foreordained as Peter said that means he did not preexist as a being until he was born on earth.

peace brother…….gene

August 30, 2008 at 9:30 pm#108715

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,08:55)

peace brother…….gene

Hi Gene,

That's not what Jesus asked for. His glory in the beginning was that He was with God and was God. In the prayer He asked that He have the Glory that He had in the beginning before the world was.

How clear does it have to be?

August 30, 2008 at 10:25 pm#108716