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Hi WJ:
My initial E-mail to the pastor of which I spoke was:
Hi Randy:
I hope that you and your family are doing well.
Randy, if the Holy Spirit is the “third person” of the Godhead as the church teaches, how does the church reconcile the following scripture with that interpretation?
1 Co 2:9
“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
This scripture states that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
His response was:
Marty,
A further consideration is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Jesus calls the Spirit His Spirit.
God can both be the one from whom the Spirit comes and the Spirit is God Himself. See Acts 5:3-4. ‘you have lied to the Holy Spirit; you have lied to God.’
I then wrote to him saying:
Hi Randy:
Thanks for responding to my question. You say that Jesus says the Spirit is his Spirit. Can you give me scripture for this?
His response was:
See John 14:16-27; 16:7-15. While Jesus does not say ‘My Spirit, He says ‘take what is mine and give to you’
‘I will send him to you’; and the Father sends the Spirit in Jesus’ name.
See also, Spirit of Christ, Rom 8:9; Gal 4:6, the Spirit of His Son; the Spirit of Jesus, Phil 1:19I wrote to him saying:
My understanding is the the Holy Spirit is God, our Father's personal presence dwelling within us as our helper, and so when Peter states that Ananias and Sapphira lied to God, indeed they did.
His response was:
You are correct that when lying to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God. The the Lord is the Spirit, 2 Cor 3:17. Yet while you can have equality in the personhood of the Trinity, you can have differentiation of callings and roles.
Randy
My response to him was as follows:
Hi Randy:
Jesus is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him and he explains:
“All things the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you”. (John 16:15 KJV)
Christ, we know is the Anointed Son of the Living God. The spirit of Christ is then the spirit of the Son, and that spirit is the Word of God that God has spoken to humanity through him and the Word of God that Jesus obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross. By the works that Jesus did in obedience to God His and our Father, we see that he is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:1-3) So then in John 14:9 he states: “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”.
The Holy Spirit according to 1 Co. 2:10 is God's Spirit. The Spirit of our Father. The spirit of Christ is the spirit of the Son. Jesus in John 14:10 states: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works. And then in John 14:16-17 he states: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (I want to emphasize that he says here that he will pray and ask the Father to send us the another comforter because later he says that he will send the comforter) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth hm; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (the Comforter to whom he refers is then the Spirit of God the Father who is at the present dwelling with them in the body of Jesus).
And he says the same Spirit of God the Father will dwell in us, and He does when we are born again. Of course, no man can come to the Father except through Jesus. It is he who baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, and so, the says that he will send the Comforter, but as I have pointed out he has prayed that the Father send the Comforter. It is not as Jesus has authority over God. The authority has been given to him by God our Father.
And so then, how does God our Father dwell in heaven and at the same time dwell in his children?( because in fact He does as our helper and he leads us into all truths in the Word of God as He has already spoken through His Christ) In Genesis the first man Adam was made in his image in that he was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. And so, God is a living being whose throne is in heaven, and he dwells within his children by His Spirit. As he disciplines us and teaches the Word of God our spirit is formed to become like the perfected Son our Lord Jesus.
And so, there is no violation of the 1st of the ten commandments when we worship Jesus by obeying the commandments that have come to humanity from God through him. When we obey him we are obeying God. He states in John 14:24 He that loveth me no keepeth not my sayings; and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. He did not teach his own thoughts. Also, I want to point out the the same word “worship” is used in Rev. 3:9 relative to the churh of Philadelphia.
Ephesians 4:6 states: (There is) One God and Father of all (all who are born again), who is above all (including Jesus), and through all and in you all.
1 Co 11:3 states: “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”
It is the Word of God coming from God our Father through our Lord as the head of the church to the church that we as Christians are striving to obey.
Acknowledging that God has called his Son, God when He exalted Jesus to His right hand as head of the church, he is that in that he is the express image of God's person, and we who are born again Christians are subjected to God through him.
God Bless you and your family
And so as with him, I share my understanding with you.
God Bless
Hi 94,
COMFORTER is an unusual choice of words.
The same word is translated as ADVOCATE in 1 Jn21 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
We know the meaning of advocate -an expert with authority who stands up for us when we are accused as with a court lawyer-and comforter seems much more limited in meaning.
Jesus did not share the Spirit he had been given with his brothers till he returned to God and heaven.
Jn7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So while he was with them and was their Lord and advocate he had to refer to the Spirit as ANOTHER advocate [comforter].
Jn14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;This is the abiding Spirit that stays with us and raises the sons of God at the sound of the archangel's voice in the first resurrection.
942767……….Excellent explanation of God the Fathers Spirit working in and through Jesus just as it does all who have it in them. You could not have said or explained it any better. The comforter was with the Apostles because it was in Jesus and Jesus prayed the Father and He sent that same comforter to be in us also. One God in (ALL) and through (ALL).
Peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2008,06:56) Hi 94,
COMFORTER is an unusual choice of words.
The same word is translated as ADVOCATE in 1 Jn21 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
We know the meaning of advocate -an expert with authority who stands up for us when we are accused as with a court lawyer-and comforter seems much more limited in meaning.
Jesus did not share the Spirit he had been given with his brothers till he returned to God and heaven.
Jn7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So while he was with them and was their Lord and advocate he had to refer to the Spirit as ANOTHER advocate [comforter].
Jn14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;This is the abiding Spirit that stays with us and raises the sons of God at the sound of the archangel's voice in the first resurrection.
Hi Nick:I agree with all that you have stated. And, as you say, the word comforter is an unusual choice of words. I was just quoting the scripture as the KJV stated. I personally like the translation “helper” with respect to the Holy Spirit because God as my Father is my helper by His Spirit.
The term “advocate” I believe is probably more suitable to Jesus since he is the mediator between God and man.
God Bless
Hi all. I've not read much of the debate, but I have a few verses that I would like to hear thoughts on:
in Matt 1:23 Jesus is called Immanuel, which means “God with us.”
in Matt 28:20 Jesus says I am with you always, even unto the end of the world —Christs is with us as is God and his spirit >>Trinity
in John 10:30 Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” and verse 38 the Father is in me and I am in the father.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him
Jesus prays to God John 17:21 just as you are in me and I am in you.
John 1:1 the word was God 1:14 the word was made flesh and dwelt among us —-This refers to Jesus
John 21: 17 Peter says Lord you know all things —suggesting Christs omnipotence
There is only one God and Christ is clearly diety, distinct from God yet one with God.
One futher note. What truth of the bible is compromised by the idea of the Trinity? If it is False it should be contradictory in some way. Not an interpretation of verses way but something more.
Quote (942767 @ June 16 2008,06:32) And so as with him, I share my understanding with you. Hi 94
You should listen to your Pastor. Is it true that you are waiting for God to remove your Pastor because you believe God is going to give you the Bishopprick?
I am curious. Does your denomination believe in the Trinity? If so, what will they do if they know you appose the Trinity?
Just curious, if I am wrong in my statements that I just made please correct me.
However, your explanation does not explain the verses in the Bible like John 16:13-15 and others that clearly show that the Holy Spirit is not the Father.
It seems to me that you would have to white out those scriptures or claim error or tampering of the scriptures to hold the view Yeshua is sending the Father to us.
If that is the case, then that would be very weak in my opinion.
So I guess we will have to just agree to disagree.
Blessings! WJ
Hi all. Just a note to my post. I have found discussion on those verses in another thread so feel free to ignore my post. I'll read through that.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 16 2008,07:21) 942767……….Excellent explanation of God the Fathers Spirit working in and through Jesus just as it does all who have it in them. You could not have said or explained it any better. The comforter was with the Apostles because it was in Jesus and Jesus prayed the Father and He sent that same comforter to be in us also. One God in (ALL) and through (ALL). Peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
GBI am curious. When you say…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 16 2008,07:21) Jesus prayed the Father and He sent that same comforter to be in us also. One God in (ALL) and through (ALL). Do you mean the Father sent the “Comforter” or Yeshua sent the “Comforter”?
If it is the Father then the Father would be sending himself?
If it is Yeshua then Yeshua would be sending the Father?
Hi and welcome TP,
Jesus is the son of God.
not the God of whom he is the Son.
Indeed God came to his people in the vessel of Christ.
but Christ was not the contents as well as the vessel for God.Hi WJ,
God is in heaven.
He manifests in creation by His own Spirit.
He pours of that Spirit as He will into Christ and the prophets and now His sons.
Yes He pours of Himself that all may be one in Him.Eph3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,06:02) Hi WJ,
God is in heaven.
He manifests in creation by His own Spirit.
He pours of that Spirit as He will into Christ and the prophets and now His sons.
Yes He pours of Himself that all may be one in Him.Eph3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
NHOk. If you say “He pours of Himself”, then that would mean that God “Himself” lives in me, which would mean that the Holy Spirit is God.
A definition for “self” is…
Main Entry: 3self
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural selves \ˈselvz, Southern also ˈsevz\
Date: 13th century
1 a: the entire person of an individual b: the realization or embodiment of an abstraction
2 a (1): an individual's typical character or behavior (2): an individual's temporary behavior or character b: a person in prime condition
3: the union of elements (as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person
4: personal interest or advantage
5: material that is part of an individual organismSo this would mean that if God himself lives in us, then a person lives in us correct?
Hi WJ,
It is scripture that says God lives in us.
Eph2
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
You should believe what is written
even if your mind cannot encompass it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,07:37) Hi WJ,
It is scripture that says God lives in us.
Eph2
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
You should believe what is written
even if your mind cannot encompass it.
NHQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,07:37)
You should believe what is written
even if your mind cannot encompass it.Seriously. You know what I believe, so why do you make contentious remarks like this?
This is not at all becoming of someone who claims to be a Christian.
In fact it is quite disgusting that you make comments like this to many on this sight.
Hi WJ:
You say and ask:
Quote You should listen to your Pastor. Is it true that you are waiting for God to remove your Pastor because you believe God is going to give you the Bishopprick? First of all, the church where I currently worship is not the church where I expect to be ordained as a Bishop, and no, I am not waiting for God to remove anyone from their position as pastor. I am waiting for God to exalt me to the position of Bishop as he has shown me that He wants to use me. There is some information relative to this in my personal testimony if you are interested at https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=942767
Then you ask:
Quote I am curious. Does your denomination believe in the Trinity? If so, what will they do if they know you appose the Trinity? The church where I currently worship is a non-denominational church, and I have discussed with the pastors that I have some differences in understanding on some of the doctrines that they include as their statement of faith, including the “trinity”. I have also discussed with them that my salvation is not dependant upon my believing that doctrine. The “Trinity” is a doctrine based on intepretation of scripture not a statement of fact. I happen to believe that it is a misinterpretation of scripture. I support the works that the church does with a tithe of my income because I agree with their many good works. They have told me that I was welcome there but we would just have to agree to disagree.
WJ, I am a Christian. I do not fear what man can do to me. If they ask me to leave, I'll leave. What am I supposed to do tell them that I agree with their doctrines so that I can be a member? The scriptures tell me where all liars are to end up. I do listen to the pastor, but a pastor as well as I can make mistakes. I agree with much of what is taught in the church.
You say:
Quote However, your explanation does not explain the verses in the Bible like John 16:13-15 and others that clearly show that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Apostle Paul has specifically stated that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. Other scriptures relative to the Holy Spirit are not going tell us something different than this. The Holy Spirit is our Heavenly Father's personal presence dwelling within us, His children, as our helper. The soul, the mind, the will, and the emotions, of the Spirit is in heaven. His throne is in heaven, but He can be every where by His Spirit. And so, yes the Holy Spirit is Our Heavenly Father(His personal presence) dwelling within us in the role of our Father.
You say:
Quote It seems to me that you would have to white out those scriptures or claim error or tampering of the scriptures to hold the view Yeshua is sending the Father to us. I have shown you that Jesus prayed that God would send us His Holy Spirit. Jesus does not have authority over God, but no man can come to the Father but through him. And so, the Holy Spirit comes from God through Him to us. He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. By One Spirit we are all baptized into one body.
I have done my best to answer your questions. I get frustrated by the never ending debate over this topic, and I am beginning to believe that the only thing that will bring us into unity is if God confirms either your teaching or mine.
We can disagree and still love one another as Jesus has commanded. And I love you and want the very best for you and your family.
God Bless
Hi brother, you are right it is never ending untill we all give up our limited understanding to accept the whloe truth of God through His Holy Spirit.
Peace to you
AdamI was believing the Trinity and still I feel it is better than any Arian view of making Jesus a god or demi-god or an angel etc. Here is the interpretation
Rev 1:1
1 “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John”
God gave the revelation to Jesus and he inturn made known to John his servant through his angel.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 20 2008,06:46) I was believing the Trinity and still I feel it is better than any Arian view of making Jesus a god or demi-god or an angel etc. Here is the interpretation Rev 1:1
1 “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John”
God gave the revelation to Jesus and he inturn made known to John his servant through his angel.
you are free to believe that..but I still would like someone who believes in the trinity to explain how this scripture is possible in light of the trinity
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