The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2008,06:58)

Hi Adam:

What about the following scripture in light of your comments?

Quote

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Also, the following scripture:

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1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Jesus was perfected here on earth through obedience to God's Word, and we are a work in process, not yet complete.

Quote

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God Bless

Hi 942767,
Paul's words in 2 Cor 5:17 are about the beginning of God's work for His new creation in our hearts but it has not been completed yet. It will be fulfilled literally when we gothrough resurrection. See “flesh and blood can not inherit God's kingdom” you people completely are forgetting about it and also “…Unless one is born of the Spirit can not enter the kingdom of God (future not the invisible kingdom existing now among us)”.
Please understand this.
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 2:12 am#108508

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,13:52)

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2008,06:58)

Hi Adam:

What about the following scripture in light of your comments?

Quote

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Also, the following scripture:

Quote

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Jesus was perfected here on earth through obedience to God's Word, and we are a work in process, not yet complete.

Quote

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God Bless

Hi Brother:

There is a difference between inheriting the Kingdom of God and entering the kingdom of God and true “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”, but I am in the Kingdom of God now as a result of being born again. God is the Father of my spirit, and I am subjected to Him through our Lord and His and my King Jesus.

June 8, 2008 at 2:50 am#108509

Participant

Hi 942767,
Yes I agree with you that we have got the entrance to God's kingdom which is invisible now. But it has not yet happened to us that we have entered His Kindomdom literally because His kingdom has not established on this earth literally. You people are not understanding Jesus words on “born again” in Jn 3:5-6. Jesus is talking about the literal entrance to the kingdom of God with Nicodemus. See his words “that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” do you think he is talikg about only our conversion alone? No my brother, he is talkng about our literal spiritual birth in resurrection. Also refer Paul's words on resurrection in 1 Cor 15:42-50, “natural body is first and Spiritual body follows that” based on this also there is no pre-existence of Jesus prior to his natural birth. Jesus became life giving spirit not on his natural birth but after his resurrection. Now he is literally God's life giving Spirit. Here only Paul goes on to say “flesh and blood can not inherit kingdom of God”. His words are real you can not enter literally into kingdom God unless you are born literally of the Spirit not at conversion as Nick and others belive but in resurrection.
peace to you
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 3:27 am#108510

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,14:50)

Hi Brother:

My understanding is that we when we were born again God became the Father of our spirit. The commandments that have come to us from God through our Lord Jesus is that “life giving spirit”. It is because we are obeying the Word of God that our soul is alive to the Father. The spiritual body we will not receive until the Lord comes for the church.

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Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

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Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

June 8, 2008 at 3:36 am#108511

Participant

Come on 942767,
God is Father of spirits not only on our conversion but He is the Father of spirits for ever. I don't know why you quote that only when you accepted the Lord? Jesus was not ''life giving Spirit'' when he was human like you and me but after his resurrection. Even the glory that he had to share with the Father in Jn 17:5 came to him after his resurrection only. How can he be a ''life giving spirit'' when he was flesh and blood? Otherwise he could not be like one of us humans? Why don't you see the difference? Whatever the verses you quoted about Jesus are in line with this and they are in figurative sense.
Peace to you
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 4:32 am#108512

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,15:36)

Hi Brother:

It is the Word of God that Jesus was obeying that gave him life. If he had sinned, then he would be dead to the Father.
He obeyed without sin, and was declared to be the Son of God according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead (Romans 1).

We overcome sin by learning to apply the same commandments that he taught and obeyed and by the blood that he shed for us. It is walking in that spirit that gives life to our soul.

I am alive to God in that spirit. What about you?

God Bless

June 8, 2008 at 5:22 am#108513

Participant

yes, Jesus was given the Spirit of Father in full and we also have received the same Spirit according to our ability (what we can bear). Infact as human Jesus died and rose again as Spirit literally but that has not happened to us yet. We also will die one day but will be risen with the Spirit body (glorious) similar to that of Jesus on the day of resurrection. We are overcoming by the same Spirit of God that is given us on our conversion (what you say born again).
Yes I am also alive in Spirit in a figurative way not literally because that has not happened to us yet which can happen to us only on resurrection.
That is the difference between your understanding and mine.
Hope this will end our arguements on this.
Thanks
Adam

June 8, 2008 at 6:33 am#108514

Participant

Hi GM,
As Spirit? He showed his flesh and bones to his disciples.

June 8, 2008 at 9:50 am#108515

Participant

Yes Nick,
He is having Spirit body with flesh and bones as you rightly told (Lk 24:39).

June 8, 2008 at 9:53 am#108516

Participant

Hi GM,
Where does scripture speak of this SPIRIT BODY?

June 8, 2008 at 9:55 am#108517

Participant

You search in 1 Cor 15:42-50 by yourself

June 8, 2008 at 9:59 am#108518

Participant

Hi GM,
Did you mean SPIRITUAL?
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Still a BODY and not a SPIRIT.

June 8, 2008 at 10:44 am#108519

Participant

I meant that only, Nick a spiritual body why so confused?

June 8, 2008 at 7:18 pm#108520

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,17:22)

Hi Brother:

No arguement. A servant of the Lord must not strive, but must be gentle apt to teach. Yes, we do have a different understanding. You want to end the converstation relative to this on that note then that is fine by me. Praying that God will give us revelation knowledge in His truth.

God Bless

June 9, 2008 at 6:03 am#108521

david

Participant

Just wondering what others think of Habakkuk 1:12.

Most Bible's render it “we shall not die,” but some render it “you [God] do not die.”
And of course, if God doesn't die, then this has implications for the trinity belief.

In copying Biblical manuscripts, early Jewish scribes, or sopherim, endeavored to be scrupulously accurate. But later these copyists took certain liberties. For instance, they made eighteen emendations in the Hebrew text of the Scriptures. Such changes were assumed corrections. However, the Masoretes, scribal successors of the sopherim, noted these alterations, making a record of them in the margin of the Hebrew text. These notes are known as the Masorah. One of the Eighteen Emendations of the Sopherim, or tiqqunei sopherim, is to be found in Habakkuk 1:12.

Some translations, such as the King James Version, render Habakkuk 1:12 in accord with the Masoretic Hebrew text as changed by the sopherim. Thus, they read, “we shall not die.” But the New World Bible Translation Committee conscientiously restored the original reading, which states in address to Jehovah, “you do not die.” This rendition is also consistent with the rest of the verse.

According to the King James Version, Habakkuk 1:12 reads: “Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.” Repeated reference is made to God, but with this fact the words “we shall not die,” a reference to the people, seem inconsistent. The rendering in the New World Translation poses no such problem, however. It presents a parallelism in phrases, reading: “Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.”

Other translations of recent times agree with the New World Translation at Habakkuk 1:12. For instance, An American Translation says: “Art not thou from of old, O LORD, my holy God? Thou diest not!” The Emphasised Bible, by J. B. Rotherham, reads there: “Art not thou from of old, O Yahweh my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not!”

Scholar C. D. Ginsburg made the following significant comments regarding Habakkuk 1:12: “All the ancient records emphatically state that this exhibits the corrected text by the Sopherim and that the original reading was: ‘Art thou not from everlasting? O Lord my God, mine Holy One, thou diest not.’ The parallelism plainly shows that this is the correct reading. The address in both clauses is to the Lord who is described in the first clause as being from everlasting and in the second clause as never dying or enduring for ever. The introduction, therefore, of a new subject in the plural with the predicate ‘we shall not die’ thus ascribing immortality to the people is contrary to the scope of the passage . . . The reason for the alteration is not far to seek. It was considered offensive to predicate of the Lord ‘thou diest not.’ Hence ‘we shall not die’ was substituted.”—Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, 1897, p. 358.

The Jewish sopherim evidently made their emendation in Habakkuk 1:12 because they thought it blasphemous to associate the idea of mortality with God in any way. However, it is by no means irreverent to say in addressing Jehovah God: “You do not die.” In fact, these words strike a Scriptural blow at the modern-day attitude that God is dead and they harmonize with Moses’ inspired psalm wherein it is said to Jehovah: “Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.”—Ps. 90:1, 2.
–Watchtower, Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom.

June 9, 2008 at 6:18 am#108522

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 09 2008,07:18)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,17:22)

Hi Brother:

God Bless

Thanks 942767,
You might have thought I was striving or without gentleness. May be because of your repeated questions to me. Any how I am not any preacher or evangilist as you may be thinking I am an ordinary believer in the Lord and understand scriptures in the light God's Spirit.
Blessings
Adam

June 12, 2008 at 6:08 pm#108523

Participant

Hi everybody,
'Trinity' topic is four days old now. Don't you contribute?

June 12, 2008 at 6:56 pm#108524

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All………. The Trinity doctrine is the biggest lie ever preached in the name of Christ Jesus, it is found no where in the scriptures. We are told there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD By Jesus himself, God Himself said “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. and again “THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD.” That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. So ask yourself whats behind trinitarian Ideology of making more than (ONE) God then.

It got it start from other pagan religions that were in the area of its conceptions Mainly the Greek and Egyptians. who believed in such things as Man God's.These Pagan crept into the true Church and there ideologies along with them, and at the council of Macia they were put into effect by the Pagan emperor Constantine , and the word HOMNOUSIOUS was introduced into the churches religion a pure creation of Pagan origins, as history plainly shown.

And if that weren't enough Just look at the History of Trinitarians, they murdered millions of people and even in our time they Kill each other Just look at Ireland for example where trinitarians were killing trinitarians and there church leaders encouraged it also.

What fruits of the spirit did they produce with there leaders condoning these murders
The trinitarian belief system is the mother of all false Christianity. And is as far from the truth of God as you can Get.

Please don't take my word for it check it out for yourself, it all there for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

IMO……………gene

June 13, 2008 at 10:33 am#108525

Participant

Amen to that post my brother Gene.
Christians created many persons in so called Godhead that they have disproved Biblical Monotheism by their alleged doctrines. Any outsider will laugh when you say God is three-in-One or one_in _three. For example I am giving a link how an outsider will understand our beliefs.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/scb/scb00.htm
Instead of answering such people we are fighting with our dogmas like this.
Peace to all
Adam

June 14, 2008 at 2:28 am#108526