- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hmmmm. I don't agree totally with your idea that the reason scripture says the second Adam was from heaven was because God was indwelling him. I think it speaks to origins and where they two came from.
I do not believe in preexistence as you well know. However I do believe that Jesus came from God (and in fact is “of” God), and God is in heaven. So it only stands to reason that Jesus came from there as well. HOW he came from there is the hot debate.
Mandy….. we all came from God everyone , even the people Jesus said you are from you father the devil, they came from God also, what Jesus was referencing was the minds they were carnal minded, to be carnal minded is death, but true Christians are born from above because God's seed abides in them, they are in that sense born from above they are spiritually minded.
The First Adam was made of flesh blood and had a carnal mind, the second Adam was flesh and blood had a carnal mind and a spiritual mind also which was from above and the second Adam put His carnal mind to death by the power of the spiritual mind in him. Just like we are to do if we are born from above. To him who overcomes even as I have, The second Adam Jesus overcame by the Holy Spirit in Him and became a life giving spirit.
IMO……..gene
Hi GB,
Were the apostles true believers born from above?
Then why do you call them carnal in their works?
Their place is far more secure than ours surely?Nick……….they sure were, did Jesus say Fathers they were yours and through divest them to me, and again i am not of this word neither are they of this world.
when did i say they were carnal in their works. Did they do some carnal things Yes scripture bares that out . But Paul said if we sow to the flesh we will reap death but if we sow to the spirit we will reap life, then also said the good he would do he didn't do but that which he wouldn't do that he didn't or wretched man that I am he said, so do you think they weren't at time carnal minded.
I don't think there place is far more secure than ours at all. Because i believe in the absolute (SOVEREIGNTY) of God. And where it says He who began a work in you will complete it I just believe that.you are welcome to you opinions i have my also.
IMO……..gene
Hi GB,
You used water baptism as an example of ignorant, wrong and carnal behaviour.
You suggested that this phase was temporary and they stopped doing so-proof?.
You offered baptism in the Spirit as the only baptism required in the ways of God.I suggest you have wandered off the path of truth into a false gospel.
What they did at the beginning is the enduring pattern of God.
You have no right to accuse these soldiers of wrong.Their words and teachings and behaviors have shown all men for all time the same gospel.
Your gospel is new and deserves the same rebuke Paul gave the Galatians. Wake up.Hi GM,
To accept such a doctrine is to deny the truth of scripture and the inspiration of God's Spirit.
We should not treat the Spirit of God so lightly.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2008,05:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2008,14:57) You as well as i know Jesus was a true exact copy of the first Adam, thats why he is referenced as a (SECOND) ADAM . there was no difference between Him and the first Adam or Paul couldn't have used that example< he would have been lying, to say he was when in reality he wasn't'.
Hi Gene,I agree with Nick here in that the first Adam was from the earth, while the second Adam was from heaven. This is a huge difference, bro. It appears that their origins are different or something? What is your take on those scriptures? Thanks.
Hi MandyPaul's reference here to the “Last Adam”,
is the post-resurrection JesusThis is the “only Jesus” Paul knows.
(i.e. he never met him before his death & resurrection)He is contrasting the earthly man with the now heavenly man, whose arrival we await from heaven.
As we have borne the image of the earthy man (our current mortal state), we look forward to bear the image of the second man who is the Lord [who will arrive] from heaven
(hence we will be immortalized like the Lord Jesus).So, “from heaven” here is not a ref. to the origin of Jesus of Nazareth; rather it is a ref. to where he is now from whence he will arrive, in the future.
Thus, the second man is the Lord [coming] from heaven.Hope that makes sense.
Here are some quotes:-
A Dictionary of the Bible (one vol.), Heading: Person of Christ, ,
James Hastings, :-p. 706
The main reason for Paul's comparitive silence as to Jesus' earthly career is that the person with whom he was directly in relation, habitually and from the first, was the risen Lord of glory. This is the starting-point of his Christology, and it determines it to the last.
p. 707
… 'the second man is from heaven,' is referred by many of the best exegetes to the glorified Lord, the sense being that at his resurrection Christ became the life-giving head of a new race.
Christology in the Making, 2nd Edition, James D.G.Dunn, 1989 :-
p. 124
Paul makes it abundantly clear that Christ is second. Christ is not prior to Adam, either temporally or logically – he comes after Adam, he is the last Adam. … Paul's … Adam christology focused not on some original man who had descended from heaven but on the second man whom he expected to return from heaven shortly, whose image as the resurrected one Christians would share (vv. 47-9).Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 06 2008,22:07) This is the “only Jesus” Paul knows.
(i.e. he never met him before his death & resurrection)
I don't know about that. Paul seemed to know a little about Yeshua's pre-earthly origins. For instance he wrote about Him when He existed in the “form of God”.Philippians 2;5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Endure sound teaching:
http://bibletools.org/index.c….s
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc…..57.2.2
http://bibletools.org/index.c….NT
Hi Isaiah,
See my explanation on Phil 2:6 above. You can not believe in two Gods I think, if you compare this verse with 1 Cori 8:6 and Jn 17:3 wherein Father is only called one (true) God. Don't misinterpret scriptures in pieces and fragments. You can never get the truth.
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 07 2008,04:09) Because I have already seen yours.
GMForgive me. I forgot that you and GB are the only ones with the Spirit and the truth here.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 06 2008,22:32) Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 06 2008,22:07) This is the “only Jesus” Paul knows.
(i.e. he never met him before his death & resurrection)
I don't know about that. Paul seemed to know a little about Yeshua's pre-earthly origins. For instance he wrote about Him when He existed in the “form of God”.Philippians 2;5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Endure sound teaching:
http://bibletools.org/index.c….s
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc…..57.2.2
http://bibletools.org/index.c….NT
Hi Is 1:18Excellent point.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 06 2008,22:07) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2008,05:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2008,14:57) You as well as i know Jesus was a true exact copy of the first Adam, thats why he is referenced as a (SECOND) ADAM . there was no difference between Him and the first Adam or Paul couldn't have used that example< he would have been lying, to say he was when in reality he wasn't'.
Hi Gene,I agree with Nick here in that the first Adam was from the earth, while the second Adam was from heaven. This is a huge difference, bro. It appears that their origins are different or something? What is your take on those scriptures? Thanks.
Hi MandyPaul's reference here to the “Last Adam”,
is the post-resurrection JesusThis is the “only Jesus” Paul knows.
(i.e. he never met him before his death & resurrection)He is contrasting the earthly man with the now heavenly man, whose arrival we await from heaven.
As we have borne the image of the earthy man (our current mortal state), we look forward to bear the image of the second man who is the Lord [who will arrive] from heaven
(hence we will be immortalized like the Lord Jesus).So, “from heaven” here is not a ref. to the origin of Jesus of Nazareth; rather it is a ref. to where he is now from whence he will arrive, in the future.
Thus, the second man is the Lord [coming] from heaven.Hope that makes sense.
Here are some quotes:-
A Dictionary of the Bible (one vol.), Heading: Person of Christ, ,
James Hastings, :-p. 706
The main reason for Paul's comparitive silence as to Jesus' earthly career is that the person with whom he was directly in relation, habitually and from the first, was the risen Lord of glory. This is the starting-point of his Christology, and it determines it to the last.
p. 707
… 'the second man is from heaven,' is referred by many of the best exegetes to the glorified Lord, the sense being that at his resurrection Christ became the life-giving head of a new race.
Christology in the Making, 2nd Edition, James D.G.Dunn, 1989 :-
p. 124
Paul makes it abundantly clear that Christ is second. Christ is not prior to Adam, either temporally or logically – he comes after Adam, he is the last Adam. … Paul's … Adam christology focused not on some original man who had descended from heaven but on the second man whom he expected to return from heaven shortly, whose image as the resurrected one Christians would share (vv. 47-9).
Adam,Thanks so much! I hadn't thought of it this way at all!! I just assumed it had something to do with his conception/birth – who he is. Wow, this is an eye-opener. I'm going to head back into the scriptures today and put on these new glasses of interpretation. I wonder what else I will see through them?
Thanks, bro!
MandyAdam Pastor……….good point Paul referencing Jesus as a second Adam shows he was not the first either. So it excludes preexistence. Good Point.
Very good point…………….gene
Hi Brothers WJ and Isaiah:
I found the following comments on this website http://catholic-resources.org/John/Outlines-Prologue.htm interesting:
Quote Note on the Translation of 1:1-2: My translation here is an attempt (maybe not completely successful?) to point out a curiosity and difficulty in the original Greek of John 1:1c, where the Evangelist writes, “KAI ThEOS HN hO LOGOS.”
If the evangelist meant, “and the Word was God” (as it is often translated, capital 'God', in the full Trinitarian sense of later Christianity), he probably would have written “KAI hO LOGOS HN hO ThEOS” (or “KAI hO ThEOS HN hO LOGOS” – essentially saying A=B or B=A). Instead, he wrote “KAI ThEOS HN hO LOGOS,” omitting the expected article “hO” in front of “ThEOS
God Bless
Hi Mandy,
I also agree with AP in saying that “second Adam is the Lord from heaven”. You also repeatedly quote this one ” Jesus is the first in the new creation” also has to be applied to the risen Lord not to the human Jesus on earth. New creation happens only when we are born again of the Spirit not at our conversion but at our resurrection when we take the immortal spirit nature as mentioned in 1 Cor 15:43-46. Therefore natural is first not the spiritual. It also disproves the pre-existence of Jesus as some spirit being as many in this forum are believing.
Love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 07 2008,14:01) Hi Mandy,
I also agree with AP in saying that “second Adam is the Lord from heaven”. You also repeatedly quote this one ” Jesus is the first in the new creation” also has to be applied to the risen Lord not to the human Jesus on earth. New creation happens only when we are born again of the Spirit not at our conversion but at our resurrection when we take the immortal spirit nature as mentioned in 1 Cor 15:43-46. Therefore natural is first not the spiritual. It also disproves the pre-existence of Jesus as some spirit being as many in this forum are believing.
Love to you
Adam
Hi Adam:What about the following scripture in light of your comments?
Quote 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Also, the following scripture:
Quote 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Jesus was perfected here on earth through obedience to God's Word, and we are a work in process, not yet complete.
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;God Bless
Quote (gollamudi @ June 07 2008,14:01) Hi Mandy,
I also agree with AP in saying that “second Adam is the Lord from heaven”. You also repeatedly quote this one ” Jesus is the first in the new creation” also has to be applied to the risen Lord not to the human Jesus on earth. New creation happens only when we are born again of the Spirit not at our conversion but at our resurrection when we take the immortal spirit nature as mentioned in 1 Cor 15:43-46. Therefore natural is first not the spiritual. It also disproves the pre-existence of Jesus as some spirit being as many in this forum are believing.
Love to you
Adam
Hi GM,
The imperishable body we receive as in 1 Cor 15 is still just a body.
Our Spirit rebirth occurs while we live and is essential to be raised.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
