The Trinity Doctrine

[Not3in1]

t8,

I suppose it is time for me to go. After all, you are right t8, I have lost faith in the scriptures…..so many of them. Listening to the long, never-ending debates only makes me doubt further. I have felt for some time that I am not helping myself by being here. But I have grown to love the people and I've always loved the topics! I have served God faithfully since I was a very little girl. And the ministries that I have been involved with have produced much fruit. I have been a good contender for the faith, perhaps as good as you at one time in my life.

But now I am filled with doubt and wonder. I guess I should leave this forum. It is the right thing to do. I do not want to cause anyone to stumble, and I just may do that in the process of my searching. God forbid that I turn anyone away from Him! God forbid! God forgive me if I already have. Yes, I should go.

Thanks brother's and sister's. I have received so much encouragement by being here, and I have learned so much. It has also filled the lonely times in my life when I needed support of those who love God. I needed this tremendously when I was learning to stand on my new non-trinitarian legs. But now I suppose I have enough information and I should find support elsewhere as to not offend those who here who completely trust the scriptures.

I truly do love you all, you have filled many of my days with hope and new understanding. Thanks for the grace extended to me during my searching. My light will be out now, but I will continue to shine my light for our Creator. His blessings overflow in my life. I must worship him more and live my life for him. I'm starting a-new today. No hard feelings – only a grateful heart for everything you have brought to my life. God be with you all family.

See you in Paradise!
Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,10:32)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 14 2008,02:00) gsilva72………….Yes Jesus is lord, but don't stop there, because scripture shows that we should confess Jesus as lord, to the (GLORY OF GOD), lets not leave that part out. Where Thomas said my lord (AND) my God, it finely downed on Thomas the God the Father was in Jesus and was present there also, God was indwelling Jesus through His Spirit, the same Spirit He can indwell all with. The Greek in this passage reads as follows, ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou Which when transliterated from Greek to English reads thusly: “Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me“ This was a statement directed TO YESHUA, as the nominative was used for the vocative in the verse. Yeshua was the recipient and to my mind there is nothing in the context of the John 20:28 passage to indicate that Thomas' exclamation was made to an identity outside (or inside!) of Him. Furthermore, if it were true that Thomas was merely addressing the God inside of Yeshua, and this was some kind of accepted protocol in those days (if it was not accepted Thomas would surely have been rebuked by Yeshua), we should have numerous example of disciples addressing other Holy Spirit-indwelt men as “God”. Or at the very least one other. But do we find this in the NT? Was there a record of Paul or Peter or JTB being addressed as “God”? No, not one. Only Yeshua is called “God” by His followers. How curious. Gene, I think your theory is flimsy and requires some substantiation above and beyond what you have provided in your post.

IS 1:18……> I could give you many scriptures that show God the Father was in Jesus and Jesus was not him self the father .

” the son of man (JESUS) can do nothing of himself, but the Father who is (IN) him doth the works.”

and again, “but if i do, through ye believe not me, believe the works, that you may (KNOW) and (BELIEVE) that the FATHER is (IN) me (and) I in Him”.

In other words God was (INDWELLING) Jesus, Jesus (AND) God the Father were co-habiting that one body, but that doesn't make them the same being because there existed two operate (WILLS)

Know you not you are the temple of God Lest you be a reprobate.

“let this Mind be (IN) you which was (ALSO) in Christ Jesus, our lord”,

“that God may (IN ALL) and through all”

The father loves me, (BECAUSE) i always do (his) pleasure”, Does (his) mean mine or someone else's.

the son of man came not to do (HIS) (WILL) but the will of HIM who sent Me.

Isa 1:18, You and T8 don't take all the scriptures into consideration that disprove without a doubt your false teachings of the trinity. Then you give these long discourses to twist the simple meanings that are easily understood. To you if I said Joe and Frank were there, you would say Joe (IS) Frank and if I said Joe and Frank were separate people and had separate WILLS , you would say that doesn't matter there still the same person, and if I said that doesn't make sense you would go into this long discourse of how there both flesh and blood and therefore have some similarities an could be seen as one, Pure Hog wash> You both don't have a clue what your saying, and if the scriptures backed it up you wouldn't have to give these long and argueous discourses either. It's like your trying to convince yourself''s of these false teachings.

anyway I could bring a long list of scriptures that show Jesus and God the Father are not the same person and the Father was indwelling Jesus (NOT) Being Him I have seen people here give you countless scripture showing these things but with out avail . If God has opened your eyes to see these things we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but hopefully Some that God is bringing out of the False teaching of the trinity may gain incite from these discussions. I am so thankful some have so I gess that makes it worth while after all.

IMO……….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……I believe you hurt Mandy's feelings and that was wrong of you, “why behold the mote in they brothers eye and see not the beam in thy own eye”, Mandy has added many good insights into things here, and none of us have (ALL) the truth do we, doesn't it say we are to grow in grace and Knowledge. Kejonn, Mandy, Stu, Martian,Tim, Mrs, Jodi. WJ, Isa 1:18, Adam, and on and on it goes are all seeking and fellowshipping Here. Your Job is to encourage not discourage. It sadden me to see anyone leave the site and that even includes Kin, Kejonn, and maybe now Mandy,. I personally disagree with your position of
(FREE WILLS) and the preexistence doctrine, that doesn't mean i don't respect you or care about you.

I will sorrily miss Mandy's incites and encouragements and Loving kindness's expressed Here time and time again. You will be loosing one of the Best members on this site, in my opinion.

IMO………..gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2008,03:50)

I suppose it is time for me to go. After all, you are right t8, I have lost faith in the scriptures…..so many of them. Listening to the long, never-ending debates only makes me doubt further. I have felt for some time that I am not helping myself by being here. But I have grown to love the people and I've always loved the topics! I have served God faithfully since I was a very little girl. And the ministries that I have been involved with have produced much fruit. I have been a good contender for the faith, perhaps as good as you at one time in my life.

No probs Mandy.

I think that this place is not for the faint hearted nor is it for all believers (faint hearted or not). This place is a battle zone it is a front line on the war between truth and lies. Not all fight on the front line. Many serve in a different capacity and we should all know where we belong and how we are to serve God.

I hope the best for you and I can at least assure of this one thing, that there is a God who is love, that there is a paradise and that the Kingdom is beyond anything that we can imagine.

So please keep believing in God and his son. God has worked out a wonderful plan that we may all come to salvation. Trust him while you are in the world and valley and shadow of death. Nothing in this world is worth swapping your salvation for. Your soul is more valuable than all the riches on earth, don't let anyone talk you out of that.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,07:24)

T8……I believe you hurt Mandy's feelings and that was wrong of you, “why behold the mote in they brothers eye and see not the beam in thy own eye”, Mandy has added many good insights into things here, and none of us have (ALL) the truth do we, doesn't it say we are to grow in grace and Knowledge. Kejonn, Mandy, Stu, Martian,Tim, Mrs, Jodi. WJ, Isa 1:18, Adam, and on and on it goes are all seeking and fellowshipping Here. Your Job is to encourage not discourage. It sadden me to see anyone leave the site and that even includes Kin, Kejonn, and maybe now Mandy,. I personally disagree with your position of (FREE WILLS) and the preexistence doctrine, that doesn't mean i don't respect you or care about you. I will sorrily miss Mandy's incites and encouragements and Loving kindness's expressed Here time and time again. You will be loosing one of the Best members on this site, in my opinion. IMO………..gene

That may be true, but she did interpret my post in a way that was not intended. You can read my explanation a few posts back.

It is still true that if someone wants to do something then they are free to do it, but there are consequences for everything.

It is also still true that it is pointless to visit a place where you don't like the conversation. If scripture is going to rub someone up the wrong way, then it is actually better to not get to the point we you abhor it. Is it not better to just leave it be and maybe later it could be picked up with less harm done.

I am not trying to be popular here, but I am giving what I consider to be good advice for Mandy's well being. In the end, love always chooses the path that saves someone, not the one that makes you popular.

I can also see that some are using this as a popularity contest by saying things similar to “I would never do that”, but to those I ask you this question:

“If this forum and debating is making her lose her faith, then why should you encourage her to stay and continue to lose her faith. Is that love?

Also God didn't send light into the world so that men would feel better. It is not about feelings at all, it is about truth/light. If truth hurts one's feelings then does truth need to change? If coming to the front line of a battle makes you lose vision as to what the battle is about, then wouldn't you be better off in a different position, if only to preserve that which you still have?

What is more important, keeping your faith, or staying in a place that is making you lose your faith?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…….> Mandy said she lost faith in some of the scriptures, and obliviously as we prove over and over here that scriptures are mistranslation, miss applied, and miss used and misunderstood. If Mandy miss understood something you said, you should have apologized and offered Her the right explanation of what you meant.

When did Mandy say she lost her faith in God. And why does it say He (GOD) who began a work in you will see it to completion, and again “you are saved by Faith and that not of yourself, but is a gift of God”. So then how can someones faith fail if God gives it, can God Fail. I don't think so!> But your (Free Will) ideologies prevent you from seeing that, it makes you think it's all up to yourself , but scripture says differently.

While Mandy may be frustrated with the debates She in no way lacks Faith or in site into scriptures as has been proved over and over here and else where.

MY hope is She will remain and continue to express Her views.

peace and love to all…………gene

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,06:19)

IS 1:18……> I could give you many scriptures that show God the Father was in Jesus and Jesus was not him self the father .

No kidding! So could I. You see Gene, I don't happen to believe the Yeshua is the Father either. This is a modalist's precept, not a trinitarians! You've confused them. PLEASE try and understand the trinitarian position BEFORE attempting to refute it. Educate yourself Gene. Do your research. Attain a proper understanding of the doctrine and then, by all means, debate us till the cows come home, if you wish. But if you want to be taken seriously try to refrain from making statements that betray ignorance.

Quote

” the son of man (JESUS) can do nothing of himself, but the Father who is (IN) him doth the works.”

If you understand this verse to mean that Yeshua was just a man enabled by the Holy Spirit, hopeless to do anything in His own capacity, then fine. But I think this interpretation creates big theological dilemmas for you. Chiefly among them – why should Yeshua be credited for anything He did!? If he were merely the conduit for the Holy Spirit's power then He deserves no credit for anything. Anyone could have done what He did. Yet we read that He is bestowed with the highest of of accolades in scripture on account of what HE did:

Philippians 2:8-9
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

Here is that verse in context:

John 5:18-23
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20″For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21″For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

I think a more likely interpretation of the statement in John 5:19a is that Yeshua, the Son of God, could not do anything BUT what God does. Which in and of itself is not a denial of equality with God but a tacit claim to it. Why? Because if he were just a man, enabled by the Holy Spirit then He certainly could have done something that was contrary to what God would do. We are all living proof of that! Yeshua reinforced this by enunciating the prejoratives that belong exclusively to the Father are His also, namely: raising the dead (v21) and judging mankind (v22). If that were not enough, He went on to say that He would be honoured “even as” (i.e., in exactly the same manner as) the Father (v23). Does that sound like something someone would say if their intention was to convince listeners that they themselves were nothing more than a conduit for God's Spirit, hopeless to do anything in their own capacity? No. It sounds like something they would say if they were trying to affirm equality.

Quote

and again, “but if i do, through ye believe not me, believe the works, that you may (KNOW) and (BELIEVE) that the FATHER is (IN) me (and) I in Him”.

Really. In what sense is Yeshua is “in” the father Gene? Explain that one to me.

Quote

In other words God was (INDWELLING) Jesus, Jesus (AND) God the Father were co-habiting that one body, but that doesn't make them the same being because there existed two operate (WILLS)

Given that Yeshua was a different person to the father it's hardly surprising that their wills were different too. Struggling to see what point you are trying to make here.

Quote

Know you not you are the temple of God Lest you be a reprobate.

Interesting. We are the temple of God. And yet Yeshua is said to indwell us. How curious. How do you reconcile the sentiment expressed in 1 Cor 3:16 with these:

John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

2 Corinthians 3:16-18
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

Ephesians 3:17
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

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“let this Mind be (IN) you which was (ALSO) in Christ Jesus, our lord”,

The Holy Spirit indwelt Yeshua, yes, we agree.

Quote

“that God may (IN ALL) and through all”

cf.

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is
all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11, cf. Eph. 1:23)

The grammar that was used of “God” in 1 Corinthians was also used of “Christ” in Colossians. I really like what C. H. Spurgeon wrote about this verse – “for Christ is not almost all, but all in all.” (source). Indeed Christ is all. Amen to that.

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The father loves me, (BECAUSE) i always do (his) pleasure”, Does (his) mean mine or someone else's.

Not a legitimate point to make to a trinitarian. We affirm that Christ and The father are two different people.

Quote

the son of man came not to do (HIS) (WILL) but the will of HIM who sent Me.

As above.

Quote

Isa 1:18, You and T8 don't take all the scriptures into consideration that disprove without a doubt your false teachings of the trinity.

He he…is t8 now a trinitarian?? No one told me! I guess you mean WJ. Gene, you're wrong I do take all the sriptures into consideration and try to reconcile them as best I can. Hopefully I have gone some way to demonstrating this by fronting up in debates and answering questions as they're posed to me. Gene, ask yourself this, do you do this? I can scarcely recall you directly answering even one question I've asked.

Quote

Then you give these long discourses to twist the simple meanings that are easily understood.

Show me where I have twisted something Gene. It's easy to accuse. Where's your evidence?

Quote

To you if I said Joe and Frank were there, you would say Joe (IS) Frank and if I said Joe and Frank were separate people and had separate WILLS , you would say that doesn't matter there still the same person, and if I said that doesn't make sense you would go into this long discourse of how there both flesh and blood and therefore have some similarities an could be seen as one, Pure Hog wash>

I agree, modalism is pure hog wash. Educate yourself Gene. Find out what it is that trinitarians hold to.

Quote

anyway I could bring a long list of scriptures that show Jesus and God the Father are not the same person

I could also.

Quote

and the Father was indwelling Jesus (NOT) Being Him I have seen people here give you countless scripture showing these things but with out avail .

It is to no avail, some modalist just refuse to be reasoned with. It's a tragedy really….

Quote

If God has opened your eyes to see these things we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but hopefully Some that God is bringing out of the False teaching of the trinity may gain incite from these discussions. I am so thankful some have so I gess that makes it worth while after all.

Gene, you've accused me of writing “long discourses” with little substance to them. But it seems that's what you've achieved in this post, lots of invective and misrepresentation (of my position) and very little actual reasoning. By all means Gene show me where i'm wrong, but first learn what it is that I believe and then do like Paul did in the synagogues and reason with me “from the scriptures”.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi GB

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

T8…….> Mandy said she lost faith in some of the scriptures, and obliviously as we prove over and over here that scriptures are mistranslation, miss applied, and miss used and misunderstood.

“Does the miss translations, miss applied, and misused and misunderstood” statement also apply to you? Or are you the one that proves over and over again that everyone but you is wrong?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

If Mandy miss understood something you said, you should have apologized and offered Her the right explanation of what you meant.

Since when did you become a judge or prophet of others here?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

When did Mandy say she lost her faith in God. And why does it say He (GOD) who began a work in you will see it to completion, and again “you are saved by Faith and that not of yourself, but is a gift of God”.

Mandy will be the first to tell you at times she has lost faith in the scriptures and Jesus as being the Messiah.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

So then how can someones faith fail if God gives it, can God Fail. I don't think so!> But your (Free Will) ideologies prevent you from seeing that, it makes you think it's all up to yourself , but scripture says differently.

So then everyone should have perfect faith right? If Mandy leaves it will be “Her Choice” to leave. If Mandy throws away her faith and Bible it will be “Her Choice” to do so. Scriptures say so, “ If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. ” (Matt 16:24)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

While Mandy may be frustrated with the debates She in no way lacks Faith or in site into scriptures as has been proved over and over here and else where.

Mandy has with her own mouth confessed that she doubts the scriptures. Why do you try to put words in her mouth?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 18 2008,14:53)

MY hope is She will remain and continue to express Her views. peace and love to all…………gene

I hope that she will also, but that will be “her choice”!!!

Blessings!

[gollamudi]

Hey! come on Brother T8,
You are attacking Mandy and Gene so much personally. That's not fair. Noone comes to Father except also He draws(drags) him. We all (including Mandy) came to God the Father because of His foreordained plan. None can take away this previlage(Salvation) from us including frustations,misunderstanding by our brothers. Loosing faith as you mentioned about Mandy is a foolish thing. If you loose your faith for silly things that's not a faith at all. Mandy only meant that her services no more required by this forum since she has been attacked and negated personally. I ask you one question have you and others brothers in this forum could prove your beliefs of pre-existence ? Our debates if they are not concluding with convictions, they are mere arguements for nothing void.
Do encourage many.
Peace to you.
Adam

[Lightenup]

To all,
I for one appreciate T8 and his understandings bring alot to this forum. I am thankful that he designed this forum and the time it takes to keep it going. I would bet that Mandy will benefit greatly from her break from here. Maybe instead of going round and round debating the same verses that seem to go nowhere, the Lord might just fill her with truth that will ground her. She is a big girl and will come out of this just fine and stronger. Maybe this recent “friction” was meant for iron sharpening iron. It seems that t8 had good intentions whether or not they came out that way but God is good and will use this for good in all of our lives. Let it be and let's make some progress for His kingdom as we seek truth together in a way that is wise and glorifies God. We are all in this together after all.

Blessings!

[GeneBalthrop]

Isa1:18……..> Have you went back and reread what you wrote, Frist od i think you ignorance of scripture's is quit obvious, and contradictory, on the one hand you quote something then proceed to show how it doesn't mean what it says, so you and T8
interpret it to suite your trinitarian ideologies. You say when Jesus said ,”the son of man could do nothing of himself”, we don't understand what that means, “O” but only trinitarians can right, pure foolishness, Jesus meant exactly what he said. I understand it fine like it is, I don't have to twist it to meet my brand of religion like you and T8 seem to have to, as you do with many other scriptures . Then you give us this bull, (I) think a more likely interpretation of John 5 :18-23 (IS) then you proceeded with this long trinitarian BS. So i gather we are to assume that scriptures don't really mean what they say but what trinitarian say they mean, right.

If the bible says, in the beginning was the (WORD) you change it to Jesus, This is putting words in John's mouth and is called forcing the texts. Poor stupid John forgot who Jesus was, right, so he used the word (WORD) and you got the brass to accuse me and others here of not understanding the text. The ones who don't understand the text is you and your trinitarian brother T8, and thats obvious or you two wouldn't have to continue add words and say it doesn't really mean what it says, (NO) it means what you trinitarians can twist it to mean, but us simple minded people Just can't seem to get it , Right., thank God He has delivered us from that trinitarian brain wash garbage . Anyone who would go back into those false teachings would dumber then a bag of hammers.

You say educate yourself Gene do your research, have you, do you understand where the whole idea of the trinity came from, do you understand the millions of people who were murdered by trinitarians who attacked and killed other in the name of the trinity, while all the time calamining they had the truth, I think you and T8 need to educate yourself before you tell other to.

I have debated with you and T8, and time and time again you both come back with word's added to the text or implying it to mean something other then what it (SIMPLY) says . And you both position yourselves as authorities and you are on the (TRINITARIAN)
teachings but as Far as scriptures go you are ignorant or you would have to continually twist meannings and change or add word that aren't there.

IMO………….gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,04:40)

To all, I for one appreciate T8 and his understandings bring alot to this forum.  I am thankful that he designed this forum and the time it takes to keep it going.  I would bet that Mandy will benefit greatly from her break from here.  Maybe instead of going round and round debating the same verses that seem to go nowhere, the Lord might just fill her with truth that will ground her.  She is a big girl and will come out of this just fine and stronger.  Maybe this recent “friction” was meant for iron sharpening iron.  It seems that t8 had good intentions whether or not they came out that way but God is good and will use this for good in all of our lives.  Let it be and let's make some progress for His kingdom as we seek truth together in a way that is wise and glorifies God.  We are all in this together after all. Blessings!

Amen LU.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2008,04:42)

Isa1:18……..> Have you went back and reread what you wrote, Frist od i think you ignorance of scripture's is quit obvious, and contradictory, on the one hand you quote something then proceed to show how it doesn't mean what it says, so you and T8 interpret it to suite your trinitarian ideologies. You say when Jesus said ,”the son of man could do nothing of himself”, we don't understand what that means, “O” but only trinitarians can right, pure foolishness, Jesus meant exactly what he said. I understand it fine like it is, I don't have to twist it to meet my brand of religion like you and T8 seem to have to, as you do with many other scriptures . Then you give us this bull, (I) think a more likely interpretation of John 5 :18-23  (IS) then you proceeded with this long trinitarian BS. So i gather we are to assume that scriptures don't really mean what they say but what trinitarian say they mean, right. If the bible says, in the beginning was the (WORD) you change it to Jesus, This is putting words in John's mouth and is called forcing the texts. Poor stupid John forgot who Jesus was, right, so he used the word (WORD) and you got the brass to accuse me and others here of not understanding the text. The ones who don't understand the text is you and your trinitarian brother T8, and thats obvious or you two wouldn't have to continue add words and say it doesn't really mean what it says, (NO) it means what you trinitarians can twist it to mean, but us simple minded people Just can't seem to get it , Right., thank God He has delivered us from that trinitarian brain wash garbage . Anyone who would go back into those false teachings would dumber then a bag of hammers. You say educate yourself Gene do your research, have you, do you understand where the whole idea of the trinity came from, do you understand the millions of people who were murdered by trinitarians who attacked and killed other in the name of the trinity, while all the time calamining they had the truth, I think you and T8 need to educate yourself  before you tell other to. I have debated with you and T8, and time and time again you both come back with word's added to the text or implying it to mean something other then what it (SIMPLY) says . And you both position yourselves as authorities and you are on the (TRINITARIAN) teachings but as Far as scriptures go you are ignorant or you would have to continually twist meannings and change or add word that aren't there. IMO………….gene

Hi Gene,
I don't think that T8 believes in the trinity.

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

Tim……he doesn't , my mistake, i meant to say WJ.

SORRY……T8

peace to you and yours……………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:05)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

WJ, if you are implying that this scripture is saying that Jesus is YHWH, then you have to exclude the Father from being YHWH.

Your logic betrays you t8. Besides you denying the Grandville Sharp rule, apparently you believe the Father is going to return to the earth. So if you are saying that the Father is (YHWH), God in Titus 2:13, then you have to exclude Jesus from being the one spoken of here…

Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:3, 4)

You see how your logic only works the way you want to see it t8?

Men can read many things into the scriptures but very often it is obvious that they are being deceptive and even too proud to admit when a scripture disagrees with them.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

If you identify a person as being someone, then you exclude others from being that person. George Bush is the president of the USA, means that Al Gore is not the president of the USA.

Duh.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

This problem also exists with your interpretation of John 1:1. If you are saying that the WORD is Jesus and he is God, then you are saying that to the detriment of the Father.

And to say that Jesus is not the “Word that was God” is to the detriment of Jesus and does violence to the scripture.

You do believe Jesus is the “Word” don’t you t8? If so then why don’t you accept what it says? You won't admit it but you insert the little “a” in John 1:1, meaning the Word was “a god”. The Jws wrote their own bible to do this. To you Jesus can be called a god in scripture but you will not call him “Your God”. Yet you say you bow down to him and worship him.

Talk about confusion.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

Obviously you need to dig deeper. At first glance you can see that it could also be equally saying Great God and Jesus Christ (meaning God and Jesus are being mentioned).

No, because nowhere does the scripture say that the Father will appear, and because “…when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point.”

Again you put yourself above the scholars and the translators. This could be perceived as being very arrogant.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

But you can't see that because your predefined doctrine forces you to understand it the way you have, but in doing so, you have erred because you are now excluding the Father from being God.

Yes of course t8, you do not have any predefined doctrine, only those who disagree with you does. Yet you would say that Jesus is not God which disagrees with John 1:1 and many other passages.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:16)

More confusion and God isn't a God of confusion, (to his people at least). He does confuse his enemies though.

I know I am one of his and not confused, are you?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:05)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:24)

Again, if you are implying that Jesus is the true God as in the one true God, then you say that to the detriment of the Father.

The scripture is clear; however you still put yourself above the Scholars. For you to imply that Jesus is not “True God” is to the detriment of Jesus and again does violence to the scripture.

Tell me what limit of honour I should place on Yeshua and where is the scripture for such?

Jesus said…
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (John 5:23)

Do you honour the Father as God? Jesus says if you do not honour him even as the Father you do not honour the Father. He that has the Son has God!

Remember what Jesus said to Thomas…

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:28, 29)

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:24)

The way that you skirt this of course is to say that God is 3 persons. But you don't seem that confident in your beleif because if you were, you should then use English correctly and call your God “them” and say things like how are you, etc.

Again your logic betrays you. This is such a straw. The carnal mind of man will not accept that God is three persons, for it defies logic for an infinite God to be such.

Tell me t8, when God speaks to you, is it the Father, or is it the Son, or is it the Holy Spirit? Can you tell?  If the Spirit of Christ is in you and he speaks to you do you say the Father spoke to you but Jesus didn’t speak?  Do you say they spoke to me? Why not? It is the Father and the Son that you have fellowship with right? The Father has spoken unto us in these last days by the Son, right? If the Father only speaks through the Son and by his Spirit is it only the Fathers words? If so then you would say that Jesus never speaks to you but it is only the Father.

But if it is Jesus speaking the words of the Father then why don’t you say “They spoke to me”? But you say “He spoke to me”? Who t8? Did the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit speak? Or did they speak to you? I have never heard you say “They spoke to me”, but hopefully they did! Or has he?

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:24)

Yet I bet you refer to God as a 'him”.

And I am sure you say “He Spoke to me”! Yet, the Father only speaks by the Son.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,18:24)

Isn't that the strangest thing? Where is your “Dear Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, …, thanks to all of you” prayers? Scripture tells us to pray to one God and Jesus taught us to pray to the Father.

Yet we see many places where men prayed and called out to Yeshua.

Your fellowship is with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit is it not t8?

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3)

How do you have fellowship (koinonia), with the Father and the Son apart from communing with them which includes conversation?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion, (koinonia) of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

BTW koinonia means;

1) Fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
a) The share which one has in anything, participation
b) Intercourse, fellowship, intimacy
1) The right hand as a sign and pledge of fellowship (in fulfilling the apostolic office)
c) A gift jointly contributed, a collection, a contribution, as exhibiting an embodiment and proof of fellowship

My communion is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? This is scriptural!  

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…….The Holy Spirit is God the Father's own spirit and is given to us from Him it is in Jesus and all who have it. Its the same Spirit Jesus Had in Him. Thats why He said the Father was in Him, you can say the same thing if you have it in you.
“For it is GOD who works in you to both will and do His pleasure.” Same Father as Jesus, the Same Spirit Jesus Had, The Holy Spirit is what ties all of God the Father's Family together.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2008,04:40)

WJ…….The Holy Spirit is God the Father's own spirit and is given to us from Him it is in Jesus and all who have it. Its the same Spirit Jesus Had in Him. Thats why He said the Father was in Him, you can say the same thing if you have it in you. “For it is GOD who works in you to both will and do His pleasure.” Same Father as Jesus, the Same Spirit Jesus Had, The Holy Spirit is what ties all of God the Father's Family together.

GB

If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then who is this?

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

[quote=WorshippingJesus,May 17 2008,18:24]t8 And your observation that there is more than “ONE GOD” is unscriptural!

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

Actually that is your observation about what I say. Scripture says that there is one THEOS and that men, angels, etc are theos.

Where is the scripture that ascribes Divinity to these so-called gods you speak of?
You make these broad statements with no scriptural evidence of your claims.

Isa 1:18 best described this in a post you did not answer!

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,11:13)

This argument is common argument used by henotheists when confronted with their polytheism. T8 argues that although there is one Almighty God there exists other lesser divinities, rightly called “gods”. The problem with this though is that nowhere in the Bible do we find the ascription of divinity to these “gods”. Included in the semantic scope of both “elohim” and “theos” is the concept of authority. Satan is described as the god of this world because he temporarily usurped that authority from YHWH. But does this ascription in any sense imply divinity? No, of course not. Satan is a fallen creature, he most assuredly does not have godly nature.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

I have never taught that anyone else but the Father is THEOS and that others are theos according to scripture given the presented context. Even a simple concordance demonstrates that theos is used in ways not exclusive to YHWH.

Well then again show us an example of the Apostles calling anyone other than Yeshua “Theos”! You can appeal to John 10:34 speaking of wicked judges and kings, or satan being the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4) however they are not Divine at all. Satan is called the god of this world only because he has usurped authority temporrally over the earth. This is all you have, yet you base your Henotheistic doctrine on these 2 scriptures and the concordance. We have eye witnesses, followers of Jesus calling him God

Give one scripture where an Apostle or a follower of Christ in the NT called a saint or an angel of God Theos! There is none! Jesus is called God because he is God and not with a little “g”.

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

I have for some time also said that the context will give you the identity. E.g., the Most High God and the God of this age are 2 different identities, neverthess, they are both gods and Satan is not the false theos of this world, he is the genuine theos of this age according to scripture. But only one is God of all, i.e, the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. This has been communicated to you on numerous occasions and it is not difficult to grasp.

Satan is a “false god” for he is not a god at all! This is not too hard to understand, that all other gods are so-called gods and not gods at all.

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and *that there is no God but one*. For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), (1 Cor 8:4, 5)

Yeshua is in a metaphysical class of his own. In nature he is all that the Father is. But you have sought to reduce his nature to being less than that of the Father therefore denying that he is the “image of the invisible God”. To say that Jesus is less than God is to create a “false image of the invisible God”.

Jesus said…

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, (God) and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (God) and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)?

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

Anyway, at least we can both agree that there is only one YHWH, but the kicker here is that you believe that three are God whereas I am defending the truth that there is only one who is God. Do you see the irony in your quote now?

No. I honour Yeshua as I honour the Father and bow down to him as my Lord and my God, therefore making him my master and becoming his bond slave. I accept the scriptures that clearly show that Jesus is “One with the Father in everyway” and that ontologically he is of the same substance and essence of the Father and that if you see him then you see God. If you see Jesus as less than God than you are not seeing the image of God but a lesser image of whom the Father is. It’s quite simple.

But the carnal mind of man rejects that an infinite God can be three persons, because the carnal man relies entirely on man made logic and seeks to interpret scripture that way, therefore twisting or blotting out scriptures that appose their man made doctrines.  

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,21:33)

Moving on, please feel free to disagree with the following meaning of Theos. But at least read it through and you will see that it is not a word that is exclusive to YHWH. If you still hold to the view that theos is a word that defines YHWH only, then you are free to ignore those other theos scriptures, but let it be known that this is how you justify your doctrine. theos {theh'-os} Word Origin: of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity Usage in the KJV: God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward 4214 2, misc 5 Definition:   1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities   2. the Godhead,   3. spoken of the only and true God         1. refers to the things of God         2. his counsels, interests, things due to him   4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way         1. God's representative or viceregent               1. of magistrates and judges It isn't really difficult to work out, but I leave that to you to wrestle with. It is the reality of scripture and it is up to you to face reality, not to define reality for yourself.

I am laughing now t8. You are appealing to a concordance to support your Henotheistic doctrine. At least you cou
ld be honest about it and not snip parts of the meaning of “Theos” out to justify your doctrine. I don’t think Mr. Strong would appreciate this.

Here let me post the full meaning of “Theos” without the snip…

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
a) refers to the things of God
b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a) God's representative or viceregent
1) of magistrates and judges

Its quite simple, to reconcile all of the scriptural data we have, the Trinitarian view is the best view.

But I will leave this for you to sort out.

Blessings!

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……It's simple the word For God is Elohiym means (POWERS) and that all it means, even strong admits that, It can be attached to a Deity Like the LORD GOD, > which Means (HE EXIXTS) of (POWERS). It's just that simple and If you go to the Sir Issac Newton Project and read the Scholuim papers He wrote He explains it clearly.

If we say LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY GOD, GOD THE FATHER< God affixed to these descriptors, does show Deity. Jesus understood there was ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and that wasn't Him.And that God is a (DEITY)

peace to you and yours………………gene

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