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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,17:28) Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:22) We now await the response designed to hide this and confuse the readers. 
t8Seems that you confuse the readers by all the gods you talk about!
You will never be able to deny that theos is also used for some men, angels, idols, Satan, etc.It is nothing more than an observable fact.
You could see it to if you opened your eyes. There are scriptures that refer to theos's that are not YHWH.
So your accusation that I talk about all these Gods is rather silly because I only repeat scripture. If you have a problem with scripture, then I suggest you pray and let the Spirit give you understanding of spiritual things.
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:44) Let scripture speak for itself, it is there to teach us. It is not there for us to teach or interpret scripture with our own understanding.
Why does Paul pray that we will gain greater insight and wisdom then?I would love to just let the scriptures speak for themselves. What would they say? Well, let's see, if you want to take John 1:1 as an example, then you would have to believe that Jesus was “with” God and was the same God that he was with! Makes complete sense to me. Not.
T8, I'll be honest here, I'm ready to chuck my bible altogether. I believe in God, don't get me wrong. I just cannot go as far as Stu and other's into the humanistic explainations……..I know God…..I feel God……I am only alive because of God. But all the other stuff seems up for grabs. Nothing can be proven.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) Why does Paul pray that we will gain greater insight and wisdom then?
It is because wisdom comes from God.Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) Why does Paul pray that we will gain greater insight and wisdom then?
It is because wisdom comes from God.
I guess I'll just keep praying for more…..Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) T8, I'll be honest here, I'm ready to chuck my bible altogether. I believe in God, don't get me wrong. I just cannot go as far as Stu and other's into the humanistic explainations……..I know God…..I feel God……I am only alive because of God. But all the other stuff seems up for grabs. Nothing can be proven.
Not3in1, do what you have to do. God gave you a free will and you will do what you want to do in the end, whether that is to serve God or yourself.What I cannot understand is why you even come here. This is a place to discuss scripture and you say that you have given up understanding that.
It would be like me going to a baseball forum and posting away with comments like “I don't like baseball” and “I have no interest in it”.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:52) Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) Why does Paul pray that we will gain greater insight and wisdom then?
It is because wisdom comes from God.
I guess I'll just keep praying for more…..
Great.If you are interested in wisdom, then God gives it if you ask.
You have to really want it and you will also have to be responsible for that gift.
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,16:27) There is no example in the NT scriptures where any of the Apostles or followers of Christ used the term theos in a divine way for any other being other than Jesus. The claim that “Theos” is used for angels and men in a divine sense is not supported by NT scriptures.
I never said that all theos/gods is a claim for divinity. That is what you think I am saying, but I am not.I even stressed the point that idols and Satan are called theos and therefore that proves that theos can be used outside of divine nature for what idol has divine nature?
Jesus is God's primary representative, therefore theos is an apt word to use. Assuming divine nature should not an automatic response. Divine nature would need to be referred to if that is the conclusion to draw.
E.g., Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.I think the problem that you guys have is that you read too much into what the bible says and what some people (like myself) say.
It would be better for all if we just read the text and assumed no more than what was written. That includes what others write here too.
You would see much more clearly if you removed Trinity bias from understanding scripture and you might even understand what I am saying too.
Let scripture speak for itself, it is there to teach us. It is not there for us to teach or interpret scripture with our own understanding.
t8You said…
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:44) It would be better for all if we just read the text and assumed no more than what was written. That includes what others write here too. I agree, so then what is the problem?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. (John 20:28. 29)Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.
SourceAnd we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)
The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:05) I agree, so then what is the problem?
You see the Trinity and it is not taught. That in itself is your problem, but you will be responsible for all who are lead astray by your teaching.Teachers incur a greater judgment. Therefore we should not teach outside of the truth that is revealed by God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:05) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
WJ, if you are implying that this scripture is saying that Jesus is YHWH, then you have to exclude the Father from being YHWH.If you identify a person as being someone, then you exclude others from being that person. George Bush is the president of the USA, means that Al Gore is not the president of the USA.
This problem also exists with your interpretation of John 1:1.
If you are saying that the WORD is Jesus and he is God, then you are saying that to the detriment of the Father.
Obviously you need to dig deeper.
At first glance you can see that it could also be equally saying Great God and Jesus Christ (meaning God and Jesus are being mentioned).
But you can't see that because your predefined doctrine forces you to understand it the way you have, but in doing so, you have erred because you are now excluding the Father from being God.
More confusion and God isn't a God of confusion, (to his people at least). He does confuse his enemies though.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:05) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)
Again, if you are implying that Jesus is the true God as in the one true God, then you say that to the detriment of the Father.The way that you skirt this of course is to say that God is 3 persons. But you don't seem that confident in your beleif because if you were, you should then use English correctly and call your God “them” and say things like how are you, etc.
Yet I bet you refer to God as a 'him”.
Isn't that the strangest thing?
Where is your “Dear Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, …, thanks to all of you” prayers? Scripture tells us to pray to one God and Jesus taught us to pray to the Father.
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,17:28) Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:22) We now await the response designed to hide this and confuse the readers.
t8Seems that you confuse the readers by all the gods you talk about!
You will never be able to deny that theos is also used for some men, angels, idols, Satan, etc.It is nothing more than an observable fact.
You could see it to if you opened your eyes. There are scriptures that refer to theos's that are not YHWH.
So your accusation that I talk about all these Gods is rather silly because I only repeat scripture. If you have a problem with scripture, then I suggest you pray and let the Spirit give you understanding of spiritual things.
t8And your observation that there is more than “ONE GOD” is unscriptural!
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. (1 Cor 8:4)
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.(Isa 44:8)
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (Isa 45:5)
Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. (Isa 45:14)
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (Isa 45:21)
When are you gonna give up teaching polytheism which is the belief in more than one god?
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:57) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) T8, I'll be honest here, I'm ready to chuck my bible altogether. I believe in God, don't get me wrong. I just cannot go as far as Stu and other's into the humanistic explainations……..I know God…..I feel God……I am only alive because of God. But all the other stuff seems up for grabs. Nothing can be proven.
Not3in1, do what you have to do. God gave you a free will and you will do what you want to do in the end, whether that is to serve God or yourself.What I cannot understand is why you even come here. This is a place to discuss scripture and you say that you have given up understanding that.
It would be like me going to a baseball forum and posting away with comments like “I don't like baseball” and “I have no interest in it”.
t8,I was heading for bed and then decided to comment on what you have said here.
It's obvious you are irritated with me and probably have been for quite some time. However that is no reason to make me feel bad. I enjoy contributing to this site, while it is not always scripturally based arguments I do try to encourage and contribute with what I have to work with……sometimes that is only doubt.
If you're really wanting to earn some kudos with God you will remember that the stronger brother upholds the weaker brother – not stomps on them and asks them why they are even bothering to question the things of God. Goodness.
Why am I here? Good grief. That wasn't very nice at all. Have you read the majority of my posts? If I wasn't wanting to understand scripture I wouldn't be here.
I don't know why I'm even wasting my breath. It's plain to me that you have some personal feeling towards me that is not so nice. Perhaps it's a personality conflict? Who knows, but if I am that disruptive or worse yet, if I am as useless as you have made me to feel, then maybe you should just delete my account.
At least I know how you feel.
MandyDon't be so much frustrated my sis,
Noone can make you like that. There are brothers and sisters who have been benefited by your posts including me. you know I was impressed by your avatar itself and started reading all your posts under all topics. There is lot of thinking in them, may be because of your prayers. I encouarage you my sis. Do continue that way. Please don't stop. I know T8, Nick and others who believe 'pre-existence of Jesus' also need you to provoke their thinking. Reasoning is God given gift.
Good night. May God continue to strengthen you.
AdamQuote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,18:54) t8, I was heading for bed and then decided to comment on what you have said here.
It's obvious you are irritated with me and probably have been for quite some time. However that is no reason to make me feel bad. I enjoy contributing to this site, while it is not always scripturally based arguments I do try to encourage and contribute with what I have to work with……sometimes that is only doubt.
If you're really wanting to earn some kudos with God you will remember that the stronger brother upholds the weaker brother – not stomps on them and asks them why they are even bothering to question the things of God. Goodness.
Why am I here? Good grief. That wasn't very nice at all. Have you read the majority of my posts? If I wasn't wanting to understand scripture I wouldn't be here.
I don't know why I'm even wasting my breath. It's plain to me that you have some personal feeling towards me that is not so nice. Perhaps it's a personality conflict? Who knows, but if I am that disruptive or worse yet, if I am as useless as you have made me to feel, then maybe you should just delete my account.
At least I know how you feel.
Mandy
You know Mandy, I've often wanted to say “why are you even here??” to people who demonstrate no real interested in the things of God (like Stu, for instance). But i've never had the inclination to say it to you. I know you do have a keen interest. I'm glad you're here.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,18:24) t8 And your observation that there is more than “ONE GOD” is unscriptural!
Actually that is your observation about what I say.Scripture says that there is one THEOS and that men, angels, etc are theos. I have never taught that anyone else but the Father is THEOS and that others are theos according to scripture given the presented context. Even a simple concordance demonstrates that theos is used in ways not exclusive to YHWH. I have for some time also said that the context will give you the identity. E.g., the Most High God and the God of this age are 2 different identities, neverthess, they are both gods and Satan is not the false theos of this world, he is the genuine theos of this age according to scripture. But only one is God of all, i.e, the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. This has been communicated to you on numerous occasions and it is not difficult to grasp.
Anyway, at least we can both agree that there is only one YHWH, but the kicker here is that you believe that three are God whereas I am defending the truth that there is only one who is God. Do you see the irony in your quote now?
Moving on, please feel free to disagree with the following meaning of theos. But at least read it through and you will see that it is not a word that is exclusive to YHWH. If you still hold to the view that theos is a word that defines YHWH only, then you are free to ignore those other theos scriptures, but let it be known that this is how you justify your doctrine.
theos {theh'-os}
Word Origin:
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
Usage in the KJV:
God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward 4214 2, misc 5
Definition:
1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead,
3. spoken of the only and true God
1. refers to the things of God
2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
1. God's representative or viceregent
1. of magistrates and judgesIt isn't really difficult to work out, but I leave that to you to wrestle with.
It is the reality of scripture and it is up to you to face reality, not to define reality for yourself.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,18:54) Quote (t8 @ May 17 2008,17:57) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:49) T8, I'll be honest here, I'm ready to chuck my bible altogether. I believe in God, don't get me wrong. I just cannot go as far as Stu and other's into the humanistic explainations……..I know God…..I feel God……I am only alive because of God. But all the other stuff seems up for grabs. Nothing can be proven.
Not3in1, do what you have to do. God gave you a free will and you will do what you want to do in the end, whether that is to serve God or yourself.What I cannot understand is why you even come here. This is a place to discuss scripture and you say that you have given up understanding that.
It would be like me going to a baseball forum and posting away with comments like “I don't like baseball” and “I have no interest in it”.
t8,I was heading for bed and then decided to comment on what you have said here.
It's obvious you are irritated with me and probably have been for quite some time. However that is no reason to make me feel bad. I enjoy contributing to this site, while it is not always scripturally based arguments I do try to encourage and contribute with what I have to work with……sometimes that is only doubt.
If you're really wanting to earn some kudos with God you will remember that the stronger brother upholds the weaker brother – not stomps on them and asks them why they are even bothering to question the things of God. Goodness.
Why am I here? Good grief. That wasn't very nice at all. Have you read the majority of my posts? If I wasn't wanting to understand scripture I wouldn't be here.
I don't know why I'm even wasting my breath. It's plain to me that you have some personal feeling towards me that is not so nice. Perhaps it's a personality conflict? Who knows, but if I am that disruptive or worse yet, if I am as useless as you have made me to feel, then maybe you should just delete my account.
At least I know how you feel.
Mandy
Hi not3,This is the morning after that exchange so you probably feel a little better now any way. I want to say that I did not necessarily see contempt in T8s question.
It is really difficult in these kinds of forums to disagree without sometimes seeming unkind. We can not hear the tone of voice, or see body language.It would be easy for a simple question like ( if you do not believe in scriptures why would you want to discuss them?)
to sound like ( why are you even here!)The answer for many, my self included, is that for what I do not believe in, I come here to see if someone else can help me to understand differently so that I can believe. It doesn't always happen, but I am open to hear the other opinions and explanations.
I, as Adam, enjoy your thoughts and posts. Keep it up.
Tim
One other quick point. I sometimes think that even people like stu come here in
the hopes that someone will be able to change his mind.Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,18:54) I was heading for bed and then decided to comment on what you have said here. It's obvious you are irritated with me and probably have been for quite some time. However that is no reason to make me feel bad. I enjoy contributing to this site, while it is not always scripturally based arguments I do try to encourage and contribute with what I have to work with……sometimes that is only doubt.
If you're really wanting to earn some kudos with God you will remember that the stronger brother upholds the weaker brother – not stomps on them and asks them why they are even bothering to question the things of God. Goodness.
Why am I here? Good grief. That wasn't very nice at all. Have you read the majority of my posts? If I wasn't wanting to understand scripture I wouldn't be here.
I don't know why I'm even wasting my breath. It's plain to me that you have some personal feeling towards me that is not so nice. Perhaps it's a personality conflict? Who knows, but if I am that disruptive or worse yet, if I am as useless as you have made me to feel, then maybe you should just delete my account.
At least I know how you feel.
Mandy
You have completely got the wrong end of the stick Mandy. Even my next post had encouragement because you gave me something to work with, and that was your point about seeking wisdom.Anyway, I am not agitated by you at all, rather I respect people's free will that much that I am willing to let them go their own way if that is what they seek. God lets people go their own way and leaves their lives as a testimony to those who look for the fruit. In fact God uses everything as a testimonty. God knows there are enough people playing out all of the enemies fantasies and even a great crowd of witnesses get to see the fruit even years and centuries later. It is also written: “Wisdom in known by her children”.
God also knows that there are people willing to serve him who demonstrate the many facets of himself to creation. (Images of the invisible God.) This is a great thing and even angels who are greater in power than us, long to see the testimonies that are forged from in this world.
I respect Kejonn's decision to debunk the NT and then the OT, and even YHWH (I think). But when I debate it is not people that I debate, but ideas and doctrines. It is not people that we fight against and never has been. The true battle is between truth and lies. If we fight people, then we are punching the air.
I am also one to get to the point. We could go on about this and that for years and people do, but I would rather skip the formalities and get down to business. Our lives are way too short and this is also a forum which is designed to get to the point.
Emotion should never sway our commitment or journey for truth. People can get bogged down helping people when they don't want to be helped. Some just like the attention, but our lives are very short and I want to know that the time that God has given me is used wisely.
So in light of that, I have a question that will help me respond to you in future. “Are you willing to lay your life down for the sake of Christ?”
If not, then I respect your decision and thereafter it just seems like a waste of time talking about scripture if you are not willing to serve God. We can talk about something else if you wish. That is the reality. Even Jesus turned away 5000 in one day. What is the point talking about the building if the foundation is rejected?
It is all or nothing Mandy. If you are willing give your life up and seek truth with all your heart, then I am willing to give you my time and am willing to give anyone my time who loves God and seeks for truth with all their heart. If you are not, then I feel it is pointless to try and agitate you or anyone with scripture and the teachings of Christ because once that point is reached it is better to spend time with someone who is willing, rather than make someone hate God and scripture.
The only exception I usually make here is when people come teaching falsely. I will expose them with scripture, for the dual purpose of helping them, but way more more importantly, for helping those who may happen to read false teachings given here, by showing them up for what they are.
I agree that a strong believer should uphold a weaker one but the key word here is believer. You have said many times that you have thought about giving this or that up and in the end your will is sovereign. You have said it for so long now that I know that I cannot convince you of anything and so it seems pointless to bother and perhaps life itself will teach you great and precious truths because life is one of the greatest teachers.
I know God hands people over to their desire(s) if they push hard enough. I have lost count of the times I have witnessed this. God willed that we choose him rather than program us to obey because a program is not love and God is love. I know that many think they are doing a good thing by going out of their way to save one sheep, but if the sheep or goat doesn't want your help, then we have to learn to respect their decision and leave them be. I have certainly left some to their own devices.
I respect people's choice because God does. I certainly will not encourage what I believe to be wrong and I will be quick to use scripture to prove something, but I will also put my energy into people and places where I expect to see a harvest of some kind.
Revelation 22:10-12
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”
12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
In light of the above, if I see that you are genuinely seeking something, then of course I am willing to help. Why wouldn't I? But if I see people saying bad things about God and scripture, then I might say something, but ultimately I am willing to respect their decision to do so.
To prove my point, I have had requests for people to be booted from here due to their attitudes toward God, but I refuse to boot anyone for that. They are free to demonstrate their view and are free to say that they hate God too. It may not be nice to say bad things against the one who gives us all things, even life, but that is their choice and it is reality.
Quote (TimothyVI @ May 17 2008,22:07) This is the morning after that exchange so you probably feel a little better now any way. I want to say that I did not necessarily see contempt in T8s question.
It is really difficult in these kinds of forums to disagree without sometimes seeming unkind. We can not hear the tone of voice, or see body language.
Thanks Tim.My point was that if someone wants to give up on scripture and yet comes to a forum that debates scripture, then I would think that such a person isn't really giving up. Rather I would take a guess and say that they are disillusioned about something and want to be anti-disillusioned (OK I know there is no such word).
A person who really wants to give up on scripture would just leave a forum that talked about scripture. I know that I don't like baseball and that is why you won't find me at a baseball game or a baseball forum.
Thanks for the support and understanding. I am often mis-understood, but then I take some comfort in the fact that Jesus was too.
Cheers.
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