The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (chipwhite @ April 24 2008,08:58)

Hello everyone, following along when I have time, very interesting debates but I had to throw this in. Gene then did the Holy Spirit from birth take away Jesus's free will to sin if he chose. (If so temptation would not be temptation if it was never an option). Trinitarian dogma or not every human ever created had the capacity to sin. If they did not then they were not human. So would this make Jesus not exactly like us because he never had the capacity to sin.(Because of the Holy Spirit at birth thing.) Samson and many other men at different times had the Holy Spirits anointing but still dropped the ball. God Bless Chip

chipwhite…….Let take one thing at a time, First why did men in the bible drop the ball, it was because the Spirit was on them and not (IN Them), look at moses for example, he was complaining about having to care for the Children of Israel and God told him to get seventy Elders of Israel and bring them to the tent of the meetings and God took of the Spirit that was on Moses and put it on them. The Spirit was influencing them but God did at times take away from them, as in the case of Saul. Even Kings David didn't have God's spirit in Him, His heart was not fulled with the Love of God, while even on His death bed He issued orders to Salomon to Kill Joab and others, hardly the heart of a converted man, David will be raised with the rest of the world, but not in the first resurrection. The First one to have God's in Him was Jesus and after him others had it permanently placed in them.

Now you ask did the Holy Spirit from birth take Jesus' Free Will away, answer (NO) because there is no such thing as Free Will, that simply another Trinitarian lie. There is only Cause and Effect and nothing else. We are caused to do what we do by pry er exposure to things, It says's all that's in the world is Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the Pride of Life. These are from the world and are passing away. It's very much like a infection which we become infected with when we were born in this environment and the antidote is God's Spirit. Jesus Had the antidote at berth and therefore never became infected with sin. Why?, because greater was He that was in Him then what was in the world. God was in Jesus via the HOLY SPIRIT. Its simple and makes sense if you think about it. There Is (NO) Free Will, there never was, is all cause and effect. Free Will is just another False teaching of the fallen churches.That's why your salvation is more sure then we realize. You cannot fail with God Holy Spirit, it will Cause You To Do Right, just like it caused Jesus too. Didn't Jesus obiviously prove that point, a 100 % human being and yet never sin, The same is possible with us and will be accomplished in all, why because it God's Will for all to be Saved, and we all will. Remember Jesus baptises us with Spirit and Fire, just as John said he would.

peace to you and your……………..gene

April 24, 2008 at 1:29 am#108222

Participant

Just asking for clarity purposes, but what do you understand the trinitarian concept of free will to be. (may I read your definition.)

I agree with the Holy Spirit being temporarily with them but not on them. 1st corinthians chap 2 makes it clear how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit. Not the flesh or soul but only our spirit can commune with God. (Our flesh and soul are what keep us from the Spirit from God.)

How does a mere man keep the Spirit gene If so many others failed?

When we are baptised into the name of Christ do we recieve the Holy Spirit?(Or is just the baptism of repentance that the jews practiced for centuries since the flood.)

If Peter and the other apostles had the Holy Spirit was it in them or on them?

Why did they continue to sin and fall short of the standard their brother Christ set, if they had the Holy Spirit with them?

How do we grieve the Holy Spirit? (If we can say things against God and Jesus and be forgiven, but cannot grieve the Holy Spirit,what exactly are the sins that lead to death.)

And since you brought it up how could the elders have seen the Lord in the air then went and had dinner with him when no one had ever seen the face of God. (nevertheless had dinner with him.)

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up

Exd 24:10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself.

Exd 24:11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Exd 24:12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction.”

Exd 24:13 Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God.

Exd 24:14 He said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we come back to you. Aaron and Hur are with you, and anyone involved in a dispute can go to them.”

[B]

April 24, 2008 at 4:24 am#108223

Participant

chipwhite……..> I'll give you my opinion of as many of your questions as i can, The trinitarinan idea of Free Will is part of their teaching, It has to do with you choosing your acceptance of Jesus on your own after hearing their preaching, as Billy Graham said that's a decision a person has to make all on his own without any influence of any kind, it must be a Free Will Choice all on their own. But what did Jesus say ” no man (can) come unto me unless the Father Draw (drag in Greek) Him, and what did He tell his disciples, “you didn't choose me i Choose you”, where is free will in that, again ” God told Israel He was the potter and they were the clay wheres free will there, and again for whom he fore know he predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. and again unless the Lord shall build the house the weary builders build in vain, and again God does all things after the council of His (OWN WILL), another words He doesnt ask any one what He is going to do, and again what the Lord has purposed He will do. Did Judas have a Free Will to betray or was it already planed out. The whole idea of Free Will is a False conception and empowers humans with the false idea that they are in charge of their own destiny which is a complete lie provocated by false churches and ideologies in my opinion. The word Free Will does not even appear in the scriptures, because their is no such thing as Free Will all choices are the product of pryer knowledge and all decisions are influenced by that knowledge. Socrates the famous philosopher was right for every effect there was a cause it is a axiom that has never been disproved by science or religion. There is only one true way to live a Godly life and God must cause us to live it, we could never come to it ourselves, we must be influenced to by GOD. That's what Grace is, it's God's influence causing Godly decisions. Jesus a was a man full of GRACE and again Paul says “i have labored more then all the rest, Yet Not I, but the GRACE of God labored. God was the driving Force in Paul, Jesus, and all who have His Spirit. Free Will is just a way of stealing God's work and taking it to oneself, and is a false teaching of Christendom.

Man does not keep the Spirit, the Spirit keeps the man. It's the Spirit of God that keeps us. We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. Our salvation is not iffy but solid because the Father is Solid. People don't understand the power of God in the minds and Hearts of those He chooses. again those he choose he also predestined and Justified, and Glorified as heirs and joint heirs with Jesus our brother.

Did Moses really see God Himself or and angle or an apparition of some kind, i don't know, but it does say no man has seen God at any time and that could be because God is not physical, but pure Spirit and therefore has to be Spiritually perceived i am not sure on this just speculation.

peace to you and yours chipwhite…………….gene

April 24, 2008 at 2:17 pm#108224

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2008,16:24)

peace to you and yours chipwhite…………….gene

Gene,
I have agreed with you on many subjects but on this one we part company. Free will is the cornerstone of God’s plan. If He wanted robots that were programed to want him he would have been a fool. Do yu want children or a wife that is only programed to want you? Do you not want her to come to you of her own free will? God, as us, can only see love or commitment as valuable if given of a free will.

In the following verses the word “choose” is the Hebrew word BHhR and means literally to make an examination to determine the choicest and then choose that one. By the way Gene you have posted your preference for the work of Jeff Benner. The following Hebrew definitions come from his Hebrew Lexicon.

Isaiah 56 verses 1 – 5 (Sabbath day rest of course is typological of entering into heaven) To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths and choose what pleases me (by keeping my sabbath)

Isaiah 65 verse 12 …. I called you and you did not answer. I spoke, but you did not hear. and you did evil in my sight. and chose that in which I did not delight (speaking of God calling Israel and they choose to do evil instead. Israel did not do evil because they had no choice. They chose to do it )

Isaiah 41 verse 24 shows that one can also choose to be dammed. Here God speaks to the heathen gods and challenges them to prophecy and tell of future events and then says (24) Behold you are of no account, and your works amount to nothing. He who chooses you is an abomination. (man has free will to choose heathen Gods)

There are also verses that speak of our will – In these verses the term “willing” id the Hebrew word A-BH nad means to be willing to go somewhere or do something.

Isaiah 42 verse 24 Was it not the Lord against whom we have sinned And in whose ways they were not willing to walk (Free choice of our will? sounds like it to me!)

Isaiah 30/15 For thus the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel has said , In repentance and rest you shall be saved. In quietness and trust is your strength. but you were not willing. (Not willing to be what? Saved through repentance, rest, quietness, and trust. Again a choice of our will!)

Ezekiel 3/7 (God is speaking) yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you since they are not willing to listen to me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. (an action of the will by Isarel to not listen to God)

In the following verse the term “consecrate” means to set oneself apart or dedicate oneself.
I Chronicles 29/5 ….. Who then is willing to consecrate himself this day to the Lord? (how does he consecrate himself? Through an action of his will)

Many have stated that it is God that gives us the heart to follow Him, yet He states that He wishes we had that kind of Heart! Deuteronomy 5/29 God is speaking – Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it may be well with them and their sons forever. (If it is God’s desire that they have this kind of heart why does He not give it to them. According to some people man cannot get it any other way.)

Notice the order of events in this scripture – Jeremiah 36/3 Perhaps the house of Judah will hear all the calamity which I plan to bring on them, in order that every man will turn from his evil way, THEN I will forgive their iniquity and their sin. (The Hebrew word means to turn back first turn from their sins (an action on man’s part) and then receive forgiveness)

All of the above scriptures point to an action or decision of the will to be made by man in order to fulfill God’s plan for them. In many cases it is an action done to receive forgiveness or to receive salvation, such as recieveing God’s grace and forgivness. Asking for, recieving and accepting God’s forgivness is an action of our will. We are not forced to accept God’s will or His grace/forgiveness in our lives.

Though I have only dealt with the OT, I doubt any would be wiling to say man’s free will changed from the OT to the NT.

April 24, 2008 at 9:04 pm#108225

Participant

Hello again. gene b thanks for responding so candidly.

1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
1Cr 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
1Cr 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
1Cr 2:16

“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?”[Isaiah 40:13]

But we have the mind of Christ.

If we go back and read all of Isaiah chap 40 we see that what was quoted about John the baptist is there. “a voice of one calling in the desert.” also verse 5 in the same chapter is very interesting because it seems to be referring to Christ as that glory that will be seen.
When keeping this within the context of the verses in chap 2 of second corinthians we see that this truth is spiritually discerned when we read chap 40 of Isaiah we see what is spiritual truth. vrs 5 and the glory of the Lord will be revealed.
That Glory is Christ Jesus and as that verse ends so shall I “And the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

April 25, 2008 at 5:22 am#108226

Participant

martian….. the problem here is with your use of the word choice. A choice is not the product of Free Will, it is the product of past understanding and desires, The term Free Will implies no influences on choice what so ever. Your combining choice and Free Will as the same when they are not the same. The only one who has Free Will is God and no other because he BRINGS Will into existence. Doesn't it say, it is not within a man to direct his paths”, then how could He possibly make a (Free Will) Choice that would be right. God is what is called the prime mover which causes all things to happen. I gave lots of scripture that showed this, in order to say man has (FREE WILL) those scriptures must be disproved . Every thing is the result of cause and effect including all our choices, Free Choice has nothing to do with it, every thing you or i do is caused by the greater influence in us, and therefore does not come from anything Free. If it were a matter of Free Will that would determine our outcome then we would not need the influence of Jesus or the prophets or God's spirit or anything else as far as that goes. We would simply choose it on our own, and therefore the Glory would be our own. martian go to wickepdia and check out Free Will, then see what you think. Science as well as religion show everything is the result of cause and effect and if there is something causing something then it did did not come to be with out cause and it's the same with our choices . A man does not make himself right He must be Made right, ” For God (Works) in Us to both WILL and Do His good Pleasure, So if God is Working his will in us, then He is causing the choices, right.
Just the way i see this issue martian, and Chip. If you can disprove the scriptures i quoted you then i will reconsider my position.

peace to you all………gene

April 25, 2008 at 5:33 am#108227

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2008,17:22)

peace to you all………gene

So then God is causing me to be a Trinitarian, right?

Does this mean that a man who rapes a little girl cannot be blamed because of cause and effect?

Does God cause the evil choices men make?

April 25, 2008 at 11:13 am#108228

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:33)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2008,17:22)

peace to you all………gene

So then God is causing me to be a Trinitarian, right?

Does this mean that a man who rapes a little girl cannot be blamed because of cause and effect?

Does God cause the evil choices men make?

have to agree with you on that one.

April 25, 2008 at 2:08 pm#108229

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2008,17:22)

peace to you all………gene

In researching our discussion I came across this on another board I visit on occasion. I think it sums up my conclusions.
And I quote –
It seems that our real conflict is over the concept of “choice” versus “will”. Let's focus on just what type of distinction there is between the two.
Per your suggestion, I consulted a relatively easy online reference work on philosophy – the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Their entry entitled “Incompatibilist (Nondeterministic) Theories of Free Will” at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/ states “To have free will is to have what it takes to act freely. When an agent acts freely-when she exercises her free will-what she does is up to her. A plurality of alternatives is open to her, and she determines which she pursues. She is an ultimate source or origin of her action. So runs a familiar conception of free will.”
A bit farther into the article, when discussing noncausal accounts, it states
“Proponents of noncausal accounts generally hold that every action is or begins with a basic mental action. A decision or a choice is typically held to be an example of such a mental action. An overt bodily action, such as raising one's arm, is held to be a nonbasic, complex action that is constituted by a basic mental action's bringing about a certain motion of one's body. The basic action here is often called a volition, which is said to be the agent's willing, trying, or endeavoring to move a certain part of her body in a certain way.”
Also, the book _Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview_ By J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig have a chapter entitled “Free Will and Determinism”. There, they write
“Finally, there is freedom of moral and rational responsibility – that freedom, whatever it turns out to be, that is part of human action and agency, in which the human being acts as an agent who is in some sense the originator of one's own actions, and in this sense, is in control of one's own action. This type of freedom serves as a necessary condition for moral, and some would say, intellectual responsibility. This third sense of freedom will be the major view in this chapter, and when we talk about freedom or free will, this is what will be meant unless otherwise indicated.” (emphasis in the original.)1
In both instances you will notice there is no distinction made in the degree of human action. Whether it be raising one's arm or leaving the room, or eating from the tree that God commanded one not to eat of, an action has an agent. The agent is either acting of his own accord (freely) or acting in some way in which he is compelled to act (not freely). If the agent is truly compelled to act, then he has no free will, and cannot be held responsible for his actions. If he acted of his own accord, he is responsible.
An example offered is the “Manchurian Candidate” scenario. Suppose a scientist placed an electronic control in the brain of a man (Jones) so that the scientist could control his actions and make him murder another (Smith). Jones doesn't like Smith much and, before the control has been activated, was considering murdering Smith anyway. Jones decides against such an act, but the scientist flips the switch on the control and has Jones shoot Smith. In this example we see that Jones was compelled to kill Smith and couldn't have done otherwise – another's will controlled his actions. However, if he would have killed Smith before the control was activated, then he would be the originator of his actions and thus responsible. As I quoted above, free will is freedom of moral and rational responsibility. All morally responsible actions are choices or the byproducts of choices.
Thus free choice and free will can be used interchangeably in this sense. Choice is simply the exertion of one's will. If you cannot will to do something, you cannot choose it. You are merely a mechanism in the apparatus of another. Thus, in order for anyone to be culpable of sin, they must have to choose to sin. If they can choose to sin, they have free will.
End quote –

In order for man to choose right or wrong, he must have free will. He must be a free agent to choose his own path. Without free will there is no possibility of choice. If it is God’s will that governs our choices, then every evil act that has been done on the Earth is the responsibility of God and He alone is accountable for them. If Adam and Eve were compelled or influenced to the point of being compelled to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil then God was unjust in kicking them out of the Garden. They should not have been held accountable for their actions.

Our choices are certainly influenced by many sources, but to choose a course of action we must have the ability to choose and that requires free will. Freedom to choose makes us the agent of our own actions. Regardless of the influences that may sway our choices, we still must be the agent of our own choices. This requires that we have the freedom to make our own choices. No matter how strongly we are influenced the end responsibility and accountability for our choices is us.

Several times I have posted that no matter how many scriptures a person may post the conclusions derived from those interpretations must pass several criteria. One of those criteria is that the end conclusion cannot misrepresent the character of God or it has to be false. If I understand your conclusion correctly then it does misrepresent the character of God.

If your premise is true (and I understand it correctly) then you have removed all accountability from man for his actions. Any evil that has been done on the Earth can justifiably be accountable to the “Will of God”.

April 25, 2008 at 4:37 pm#108230

Participant

Wj…..first let me answer you…….God is not causing you to be a trinitarian, the false concepts that is installed in your mind does it , he simply is allowing it, until He decides to change your thinking. You are a product of your thinking and what you think was placed their, the cause and the effect is the way you are. Paul was caused to kill Christians because what was installed in his thinking years before he was doing the things he was and would not have by (FREE WILL) changed his actions it took the intervention of God to change Him (God=cause = change=effect)

If you were given the exact same input into your brain as a rapist has in him you would do the same thing. We know this by many examples, for instance terrorist clerics take little children and teach them to Hate Americans over and over and when they are grown they even kill themselves to carry out what was sown in the from child Hood (Where's Free will they choose what was put in them) were they just morally corrupt and so acted on there own (Free Wills), NO they were programed to do it Had nothing to Do with Free Will or Free Choice. Why does the bible say <" Train up a child in the way He should go and when he's old he will not depart. Why, because of His training so where is Free Will Here. All things are a result of cause and effect.

martian…… let me say first God Does Take Responsibility For all Sin if he didn't he could not forgive it. God created all influences both Good and Evil. It says all manor of sin Shall be forgiven man, or should is say except for those who by Free Will choose not to do right. We are not saved by our Free Wills doesn't it say while we were yet sinners , God loved us and forgave us, not that we loved Him, but he loved us. and again , the carnal mind (the one we are born with) is (NOT) subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be, (no Free Will is implied there). And again for He (GOD) works in Us (for what reason) to CAUSE CHANGE. and again For you are (CREATED) unto good works, No Free Will there either it's God will causing change it has nothing to do with Our Free Will at all. Grace is a verb showing God active force in our lives and that force causes change. A leopard can't change his spots neither can a man change himself by His so call (FREE WILL) which is not even in the scriptures, It simply a creation of False christianity trying to empower man with his own choice of destiny Purely false teaching. Man's destiny lies in the hands of God, not his Free Will Choices, ” NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME UNLESS THE FATHER
DRAW (drag) HIM> where's FREE WILL THERE. You or WJ have not addressed any of the issues in scriptures i have brought up. Please address them. Your quotes on Free will was from a by-est view point. When i read on wikipedia's site i did not get that view point and science as well a philologist under stand cause and effect relationship in all things. Everything is caused there is noting that is not caused. While we may not understand all the causes never the less they are there.

IMO……..peace to you both …………….gene

April 25, 2008 at 7:58 pm#108231

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

IMO……..peace to you both …………….gene

Well I guess as God allows WJ to stay in the Trinity. I will stand with God and allow you to stay in your doctrine. LOL

Now go ahead and make some silly comment like I cannot defend my stand or defeat yours. La La La La Yady Yadi Yadi The fact is I choose to exercise my free will and not cast my pearls before swine. Like Kejon and stu on the other site I fear you are so off in whacko land on this one that I do not find it entertaining or fruitfull to discuss it farther.

April 25, 2008 at 9:09 pm#108232

Participant

Hello Gene,

Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(and now as andy rooney would say the rest of the story)
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Jhn 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has ever lasting life.

Notice words like Listen and Learns are in the same scripture you quoted both are actions of Choice/Will/Decision. (The quote is from Isaiah 54:13 but if you read verses 5-8 they will make 13 more clear.)

Jhn 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Jhn 15:11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
Jhn 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Jhn 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Jhn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.

You quoted vrs 16 gene but if we read the vrs in its context before and after this the point was to emphasize that we love one another as Christ loved us.(Christ did choose to die for us while we were still sinners, we did not even know him nor could we, because we were not born yet. So he did chose us before we chose him that is why I choose/will/decide to follow him.) Isaiah 65:11-12 The only set destiny is listed for those who forsake God.

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
………….Same chapter couple of verses later…………………………
Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
This is the main point of the chapter 9:
Faith is a choice/will/decision Being sure of what we hope for certain of what we do not see. next verse says this is what the ancients were commended for. What you quoted was just one of the examples in the main point of this scripture. (Isaiah 29:11-16 does the exact same thing in the exact same way.) This is important because the final temptation of Christ after the attack on his hunger. After the attack on his ego. The attack from the scriptures (psalms 91:11-12) which was quoted correctly. Jesus answered with the scripture that he would be violating had he exercised that one (Due 6:16) for it would have been wrong to test God.

Psa 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house,its builders labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city,the watchmen stand guard in vain.
Again Gene use the whole verse not just the first half. If you read the text it is saying exactly what is said in James chapter 4:13-15. If you try anything without God you are a fool.
You told me to address the scriptures you quoted previously and I have obliged. God bless and will check back to see what you post. Chip
ps. please take the time to read the scriptures and chapters listed in my comment or my comments will not have the spirit in them that only the word of God can give them. Thank you.

April 26, 2008 at 3:12 am#108233

Participant

chipwhite………the issues is not do we or anyone else chosses things, the question is are these choices a result of (Free Will) and I have shown they are not. We are not Free Will beings, If i put a dime and a dollar in front of you and say you can have the one you choose , you would most likely choos the dollar, WHY? because you will excorsise value you already learned, it wasen't Free Will that drove you to choose the dollar at all it was a preexistent knowledge the (Caused the Decision) Free will had nothing to do with it. Murderers and rapest are caused to do what they do because of whats in them drives them to commit these terrible acts. Remember i am not talking about Just a choice, I am talking about a (Free Will) Choice which means no influence of any kind was involved in the choice, otherwise it's not (FREE) because the choice was influenced and therefore was not (FREE).

peace to you and yours…………….gene

April 26, 2008 at 3:45 am#108234

Participant

Hello gene,
My definition of free will is this. Free will is not a choice void of any type of influence it is the ability to weigh the preconcieved notions and then make the choice. IE the dollar is more so I want it, or the person is poor and really cannot afford to give me either so if I have to take one. I will take the dime because I really do not need either. We could discuss that loop all evening long. The main point for all believers is that we By Faith have to chose to honor God above all the stuff that happened to us along the way. For the wisdom of the world/psychology/science/etc. is foolishness to God. (spirituall discernment is better.) I am begining to think some of the problem with our communicating on this subject is the fact we have different interpretations of free will. Now predestined and foreknowledge of us is a tricky thing when thinking linear. God is still in the process of creating everything, as well as here with us today watching overus, and also sitting on the judgement throne with the book of life open before him ready to seperate the wheat from the tears. Just because he is always there and all knowing does not mean he is influencing any decisions we make he is just watching us make every single one of them. Paul adresses that when he says that without the law we would not be conscience of sin. So in a wierd sort of way by setting the rules he also set our destiny. (But it also is still up to us to make the choices in each situation. I am sure there are certain times in our lives He would make different ones for us if He did not give us that lattitude.) I would even go as far to say that some of the decisions we think He would change He would not because He sees so much clearer than us and can look at the future to see what became of the choices. but again I say those choices are our free will as I have defined in this outline.

God Bless you Gene and may you have a good evening Chip

April 26, 2008 at 6:17 am#108235

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

Let me see if I understand. So God is not causing me to be a Trinitarian he “allows” me to be a Trinitarian?

But then you say…

“.., until He decides to change your thinking.”

This makes no sense. Why would he wait since you say the Trinitarian view is so evil?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

You are a product of your thinking and what you think was placed their, the cause and the effect is the way you are. Paul was caused to kill Christians because what was installed in his thinking years before he was doing the things he was and would not have by (FREE WILL) changed his actions it took the intervention of God to change Him (God=cause = change=effect)

Ok, so when God made Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden, then God caused them to sin? If Adam and Eve didn’t have “Free will” then they wouldn’t have sinned because God would have “Caused them not to” right?

They had no knowledge of good and evil. Or do you believe “the Devil made them do it”?

Ok, lets go a little deeper here. If everything is (God=cause = change=effect), as you say, then when God created all things and said it was good then God set the “cause” in motion, so that would mean that the effect of that would be Adam and Eve sinning, and this present evil world?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

IMO……..peace to you both …………….gene

I don’t even know where to start.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. (1 Cor 3:9)

God draws us by his Spirit, but we freely choose if we want to follow the Spirit’s leading. We work together with God.

If what you are saying is true, then why is God letting me continue in the Trinitarian view, since you say it is an evil doctrine?

You say,

“You are a product of your thinking and what you think was placed their, the cause and the effect is the way you are.”

Did I not “Freely choose” what was placed in my thinking? I have heard enough of your thinking, if it was God then why hasn’t he changed my thinking to be like yours?

So are you saying that now you have the truth and he has changed your thinking then you never sin?

If God is the cause of us being totally like Christ then why hasn’t the effect happened?

Why would God wait?

Could it be that he is waiting on us to “choose” to open the door and let him in?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Free choice), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)

April 26, 2008 at 1:10 pm#108236

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,18:17)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

Let me see if I understand. So God is not causing me to be a Trinitarian he “allows” me to be a Trinitarian?

But then you say…

“.., until He decides to change your thinking.”

This makes no sense. Why would he wait since you say the Trinitarian view is so evil?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

They had no knowledge of good and evil. Or do you believe “the Devil made them do it”?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2008,04:37)

IMO……..peace to you both …………….gene

I don’t even know where to start.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. (1 Cor 3:9)

God draws us by his Spirit, but we freely choose if we want to follow the Spirit’s leading. We work together with God.

If what you are saying is true, then why is God letting me continue in the Trinitarian view, since you say it is an evil doctrine?

You say,

“You are a product of your thinking and what you think was placed their, the cause and the effect is the way you are.”

Did I not “Freely choose” what was placed in my thinking? I have heard enough of your thinking, if it was God then why hasn’t he changed my thinking to be like yours?

So are you saying that now you have the truth and he has changed your thinking then you never sin?

If God is the cause of us being totally like Christ then why hasn’t the effect happened?

Why would God wait?

Could it be that he is waiting on us to “choose” to open the door and let him in?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Free choice), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)

For the most part I have to agree with you there too.

April 26, 2008 at 3:59 pm#108237

Participant

I would like to discuss aspects of the Holy Spirit.
When e celebrate holidays we dress in our best get out the fine china and generally use these things that are set aside for a special purpose. This is the concept behind the Hebrew verb qadash and the nouns qodesh and qadash which are derived from it.

Gen 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day and set it aside for a special purpose. (qodash)

Exo 3:5
5Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is ground set aside for a special purpose.” (qodash)

Exo 19:6
6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a nation set aside for a special purpose.' (qodash) These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”
A translation of “Holy” for qodash looses it’s Hebrew meaning and replaces it with the abstract idea of pious. Perfect or sinless. In fact the words qedesh and qed shah are derived from the same word qudash and are used to describe male and females set aside for the special purposes of being prostitutes.

Deut. 23:17
“None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a cult prostitute.

The difficulty for some begins when the word “spirit” is added to “holy”. Many good and dedicated Christians have been caught up in a dogma that is totally foreign to the Hebrew concepts of these words.

Though the term Holy Spirit is used only three times in the OT it is the basis from which we must understand the use in the NT. I doubt any would venture to say that the Holy Spirit became something different from Old to the New Testament.

One of the clearest definitions in both the Old and New Testament is the word “Spirit”. Though many have tries to give this word a personality and animate it, the definition is very very clear. It means wind or breath. The Hebrew word ruahh and the Greek word pneuma hold the exact same meaning. No matter what doctrines have attached other meanings the real and original derived from the actual languages and not from doctrine cannot be denied.

So now the actual meanings of the words are established without external doctrines. We have established that spirit means wind or breath and that holy means someone or something set aside for a special purpose. Now to scripture —

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Proper translation?
Cast me not away from thy presence and take not the breath of your special one from me.
—– Now before someone pops up and says the special one has to be Christ denoting He was there at the time of David, this Psalm is a prophecy or prophetic prayer spoken by Nathan. ———-

I suspect many have already turned me off because their English bibles say something else. All I can say is much is lost in translation. Part of the problem is that most English versions rely heavily on the Septuagent rather then the actual Hebrew text. The Spetuagent was an attempt to translate the concrete concepts of the Hebrew culture into the more abstract way of thinking prevalent in the Greek cultures. In some cases it is simply wrong. In the case of Psalms 51 the Septuagent changes the term “holy” from a noun meaning a person or thingset aside for a special purpose to an adjective. This same phrasing is continued in the NT.

Matthew 3:11
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Most scholars will agree now that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and not Greek. If the Greek of this verse is translated back to Hebrew, “Holy Spirit” becomes “the breath of the special one”. “He will baptize you with the fire of the breath of the special one.”

This clearifies many verses in the NT.
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the breath of the special one. (Holy Spirit)

So who is this special one? Notice in the following verse the perfect use of parallelism by Paul. Parallelism is the most common form of poetry among the Hebrew people. One statement is said in two ways to show more detail.

1 Cor 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God (breath of Elohiym) says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit (breath of the special one).
Some doctrinal people will not like it but the scripture speaks for itself in it’s original languages. When we read “Holy Spirit” in both OT and NT it is literally the breath of the special one/Elohiym/theos/God.

From the beginning the
Hebrew people knew that it was the breath of the special one (Elohiym) that gave them life. From God breathing into Adam and him becoming a living soul to all the generations that followed. The Hebrew people did not compartmentalize but saw the spirit and soul of a man as the same thing. They knew that all of humanity had this portion of the breath of humanity within them. Relating it to their nomadic lifestyle they spoke of it teaching, guiding, comforting and leading them from pasture to pasture so that they might flourish.

The Hebrew people saw everything in their world by virtue of the five senses. They did not carry abstract ideas. They could not see the wind but could see it’s effects in the moving of the leaves and dust. They could not see God but could see the moving of his breath in and about them.

We might call this breath of God our conscience leading and gently speaking to us. The Hebrew people understood that the character of God was carried in His breath and so our conscience would speak to us in matters of acting in accordance with the character of God. The more of God’s breath we have in us the more of God’s character we have in us and is revealed through our personalities to the world around us. The understood that the gift of this breath was theirs until it returned unto God at their death. Jesus, A Hebrew, knew this too.

Luke 23:46?And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
Matthew 27:50?And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

April 26, 2008 at 6:39 pm#108238

Participant

Quote (chipwhite @ April 26 2008,15:45)

Hello gene,
My definition of free will is this. Free will is not a choice void of any type of influence it is the ability to weigh the preconcieved notions and then make the choice.

———————————————————–

Chip…….then your definition is not (FREE) Will, but cause and effect is what you are describing. Because if influence is there then its not (FREE) is it and you are right our choices are a result of influence, and if God is influencing you you will make Godly decisions.
———————————————————–

IE the dollar is more so I want it, or the person is poor and really cannot afford to give me either so if I have to take one. I will take the dime because I really do not need either.

———————————————————–chip…..the word because shows it was what caused you to choose what you choose again cause and the effect was you choose the dime.
———————————————————-

We could discuss that loop all evening long. The main point for all believers is that we By Faith have to chose to honor God above all the stuff that happened to us along the way.
———————————————————–

Chip…Faith is given Us and it is what cause us to do things pertaining to Godlyness.
————————————————————
For the wisdom of the world/psychology/science/etc. is foolishness to God. (spirituall discernment is better.) I am begining to think some of the problem with our communicating on this subject is the fact we have different interpretations of free will.

———————————————————–

Chip you are right its the definition of What Free Will really is and it is not in the scriptures at all, mans choices is not what saved him, its God directed WILL that saves HIM and without that cause man would never change he would simply respond by whats in Him. “for it is not within a man to direct his paths”, so if it not within Him who can he change on his own, he can't, he will always choose what influencing him which is nothing more then cause and the effect is what he does.
chip we really arn't that far apart in this .

———————————————————–
Now predestined and foreknowledge of us is a tricky thing when thinking linear. God is still in the process of creating everything, as well as here with us today watching overus, and also sitting on the judgement throne with the book of life open before him ready to seperate the wheat from the tears. Just because he is always there and all knowing does not mean he is influencing any decisions we make he is just watching us make every single one of them. Paul adresses that when he says that without the law we would not be conscience of sin. So in a wierd sort of way by setting the rules he also set our destiny. (But it also is still up to us to make the choices in each situation. I am sure there are certain times in our lives He would make different ones for us if He did not give us that lattitude.) I would even go as far to say that some of the decisions we think He would change He would not because He sees so much clearer than us and can look at the future to see what became of the choices. but again I say those choices are our free will as I have defined in this outline.
———————————————————–chip why do you think we must put our wills to death. Jesus said he came (NOT) to do his WILL, but the Will of Him who sent Him. And why did He say the son of man can do nothing of Himself, and again it is not I but the FAther in me doing (HIS) work, that was the cause that drove Jesus' decisions it had nothing to do with (FREE Will). And that same cause is at work in all who have His Spirit in the , those who doin,t simply do whats in them, but it has nothing to do with Free will. Show me where it says we are saved by our free will choices, it dosen't, it says we are saved by (GRACE) and that Not of OURSELVES it is a gift from God. The true meanning of the word grace is God influencing or causing and the effect is salvation.
———————————————————-

Chip may God bless you to fully see this

peace to you and yours……………gene

April 27, 2008 at 4:57 pm#108239

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,18:17)

I don’t even know where to start.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. (1 Cor 3:9)

God draws us by his Spirit, but we freely choose if we want to follow the Spirit’s leading. We work together with God.

If what you are saying is true, then why is God letting me continue in the Trinitarian view, since you say it is an evil doctrine?

You say,

“You are a product of your thinking and what you think was placed their, the cause and the effect is the way you are.”

Did I not “Freely choose” what was placed in my thinking? I have heard enough of your thinking, if it was God then why hasn’t he changed my thinking to be like yours?

So are you saying that now you have the truth and he has changed your thinking then you never sin?

If God is the cause of us being totally like Christ then why hasn’t the effect happened?

Why would God wait?

Could it be that he is waiting on us to “choose” to open the door and let him in?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Free choice), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)

WJ……You again distort and ver off what i am saying.

let's take some of you statements and examine them even though you do not do that with what i am saying and quoting.

You said……> For we are laborourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are ] God's building. (1 Cor 3:9).

well then was it our own ” Free Will's ” that caused that or God's Grace (God's influence on us that caused that to happen) where is Free will here. “For He (God) works in us both to (WILL) and do HIS GOOD PLEASURE, thats how it's done, has nothing to do with our “FREE” Will's.

You say….> God draws us by his Spirit, which is true, then you add somthing which is not scriptural, (but we freely choose if we want to follow the Spirits leading), where is that at in scripture, it's not there it's unscriptual triniatarian idology . If God draws us (the actual word for draw is drag) then thats the cause and the effect is whats produces. Not Free Will mentioned here. You have again just simply inserted it into the text, as you do with other issues.

You said….If what you are saying is true, then why is God letting me continue in the Trinitarian view, since you say it is an evil doctrine.
This is simple to explain Jesus said, “they have ears to hear but hear not, eyes to see but see not”. Many are called (BUT) only a few choosn. God is not actively trying to save all man kind at this time. If He is he would be a big failure wouldn't He. Don't kid yourself theres only a very few who truly have the Spirit of truth in them, other wise there wouldn't be so much confusion in relgion would there.

you said….> Did i not “Freely Choose” what was placed in my thinking? I have heard enough of your thinking, if it was God then why hasn't he changed my thinking to be like yours?

Answer no you did not “FREELY CHOOSE” anything, the (I GOD) in you want's it that way. It says the man of sin sits in the temple of God showing Himself as GOD. Are we not the temples of God, so then if we are, then who rules in your temple is it you by your supossed (FREE WILL) or is it GOD who (RULES) if God rules then He is the cause of what you do.
Still no “Free Will” here.

You said…..> So are you saying that now you have the truth and he has changed your thinking then you never sin?

Answer…> Paul said with my mind i serve the laws of God, but with my body the the law of sin and death and went on to say O wretched man that i am who can deliver me from this body of death. Do you think the apostle Paul didn't sin because he had God's Spirit in Him. Pure foolishness, and again you are misrepersent what i am saying. You have so long devert subject matter you can't help it.

You said ….> If God is the cause of us being totally like Christ then why hasn't the effect happened?.

If God isn't the cause then who is, in your case it's your own so called (FREE WILL) . Then you are your own salvation you don't need God for anything you Perfecly capably of saving your self. You are indeed an (I GOD) a self savior.
But if God is in you He will be molding you into becomming like Jesus Christ. Doesn't it say until we grow up into the full stature of Christ, so it show's a process and we should be becomming more like Christ all the time.

You said …Could it be that he is wating on us to “choose” to open the door and let his in?.

answer…> NO, all who are truly called will open the door, because God will (CAUSE) it to happen, didn't Jesus tell the deciples they didn't choose him, but he chose them. God caused that to happen by the revelation of truth in there minds, and they naturally did what the Spirit was causeing them to do.

The Doctrine of ” FREE WILL” is one of the biggest LIES ever taught in Christdom.

IMO…………..WJ, peace to you and yours…………..gene

April 27, 2008 at 5:25 pm#108240