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Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,11:07) Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,08:32) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,07:46) Martian All that I am going to say to, is that you are trying to take scripture apart and make something else out of it. To me that is not what it is. You either believe what scripture says or not, I for one believe what the word of God teaches, rather then what men, like you do. Thank you for your trouble.
Peace and Love Mrs.
In other words you are not willing to hear the truth. You have a preconceived idea of doctrine that someone told you and anything that might contradict it is dismissed. You say you want to study scripture but you read the English and AGAIN act as if that is what was written by Paul. Absolute silliness. If you do not want to follow scripture then follow the English translators with no check to see if they are correct.Talk about following man? You are following translations of scripture made by biased Trinitarian translators, who promote the pre=existence of Christ because it strengthens their idea of the Trinity. You say you believe scripture. That is a lie. You believe what the translators tell you to believe. You follow men.
If I were to bring you an original copy of scripture and show you that what the English says is wrong, would you dismiss the original for the modern? That is exactly what you have done. You reject the real words of scripture for a translation that supports your doctrine.
Here is a Trinitarian proof text.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.You must accept this verse even though it is not in the original. It is in the KJV and others so you must accept it. You accept the modern translations when it supports your purposes so accept this one too.
Funny that you do exactly what you accuse me of doing. I study and research the real meaning of the original scriptures based on archeological cultural and linguistic data. I confirm that through dozens of scholars. You pick up someone’s biased translation and claim it’s truth. You are probably a wonderful person but your study habits in scripture are foolish and silly!!!!
martain You know what I don't care what you belief, belief what you want. But I am not going sit here and be insulted by you, I had enough of that with Kevin and I am not going to do it again. I will not say anything to you again. Goodbye.
I just reread my post to you. I must ask your forgivness for the harsh way it seemed to come accross. I wrote it when I was very tired and did not edit it as I usually do. It is nt my natue to be insulting. My hope was to point out that there is much more to understanding scripture then picking up a modern translation and assuming it is correct.
Most all scholars will agree that the NT must be understood within the Hebrew culture of those that wrote it. The understanding of Hebrew culture has oppened up greatly in recent years with discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrols the pictorgahps of the Hebrew language.Again you have my apology if you were offended.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2008,03:27) [quote= I dont quite understand this line…
Quote That was a silly question after the post telling of your daily work load right now, huh?
Blessings.
Hi WorshippingJesus,I meant that it was a silly question on my part to ask
where have you been in light of you just posting how busy
you have been. Obviously too busy to be around here much.Tim
Hi Martian,
I really do not want to discuss about WJ with you. For know, I just want to know if you use the Strong's concordance/dictionary in your studies?Martian…… I have a request of you, would you go to Finding Believers web site and explain your views on some of these subjects.
peace to you and yours…………gene
martian
First of all yoiu are talking about one Gospel out of 27 NT books. Second you say…
Quote In closing lightenup, how much credence can you put in what WJ has to say when after years of Nick and others writing him concerning the Trinity, he still hangs onto that pagan blasphemy.
This is insulting but hillarious seeing that you have been arguing your “funtional theory” here for a long time and recently been arguing with NH and others about Jesus preexistence.
Nobody on this sight with the exception of GB agrees with you either.
Have you changed your belief?
So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief.You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you?
1 Jn 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world2 Jn 1:7
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the worldYou see I could say by those scriptures that you are of the Spirit of the antichrist and dont know him, but I dont know your heart just as you dont know mine.
But we can know them by their fruit. Patronizing and name calling and condemning is not fruit but is of the world and is inspired by the accuser of the brethren.
If I am in error than give me the unambiguous scripture that says so not some gobly goop about Hebrew mindset or culture that you have gathered from modern day apologist.
Meanwhile like you I hang on to my beliefs as you hang on to yours. So I will just leave the name calling to you and others who claim they have the truth and Trinitarians like myself are lost and blind.
Blessings
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 20 2008,04:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2008,03:27) [quote= I dont quite understand this line…
Quote That was a silly question after the post telling of your daily work load right now, huh?
Blessings.
Hi WorshippingJesus,I meant that it was a silly question on my part to ask
where have you been in light of you just posting how busy
you have been. Obviously too busy to be around here much.Tim
TimThanks. Dah. I see what you mean now.
I appreciate your spirit my friend. We disagree on a lot, but you have a good spirit.
Blessings!
No appollogy needed. I can see that I really probably don't need to be on here, tossing around Idead that I should not be anyways.
I have this problem…where I talk to much…I like to carry on and I'm social. It usually ends up gettting me into a lot of trouble. I always end up saying the things that offend people that I never intend to do.
It seems the harder that I try not to offend people the more that I do.
I wish that I would not do these things.I remember back when I first got “Saved” in the church that I went to…it was such a wonderful time. There was a great youth group for me to be involved in that talked about Jesus and GOD all the time. It was a completely chairtible amptosphere.
Now it seems that every one has a different opinion about GOD.
When his book clearly states that there is only one way.
Yet there seems to have been a million ways developed over the years.Somewhere there is the TRUTH…and I am whole heartedly seeking it. I believe that I WILL FIND it. And when I do it will set me free.
I will not rest till I have found the TRUTH.
Because I'm getting a lot of lies from a lot of sources.
The Kingdom of GOD, and the TRUTH is my goal.I think that man has ignored the TRUTH and thus GOD has hardned their heart in light of that. Yes…GOD hardens hearts…look at what happened to Pharoh.
I could be wrong about some of my beliefs…if I am…I pray to GOD that he shows me the TRUTH.
I do not want to be decived anymore by the lies of this world and of Satan.I want to be free.
I really really really do.
For once in my life LORD please…hear my plea and set me free.
Amen.GODBLESS all of you and goodbye.
Hi Samuel,
Dude we love you here and want you to stay.
Stop condemning yourself man.
It is not your fault.Rom8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.You cannot walk with Christ and not offend folks.
Mt15
11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Christ offends lots of folks here.
Some turn away
Mt13
Matthew 13:21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.But remember
Mt11
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.Dear Samuel,
You wrote:
My Biggest problem is my “Mouth” and my “Attitude”. I get myself in so much stuff that I have to go squalling back to back to Jesus about every day.I've prayed a many nights “Jesus, just fix me, fix me so I don't do these things ever again. Please Lord fix me”
My encouragement to you is this:
If you need a break then take it but come back. I have found over the years that if you are praying for God to help you grow stronger in some areas, well, He tends to put you into situations where you can practice just that. This forum might just be that training ground. I think that God can use you here. I wish that you wouldn't leave but instead take the opportunity to be part of the solution for establishing a more loving spirit. This forum is good training ground for us all.I hope that you consider this as an encouragement to you Samuel:
James 1:2-42 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
NASUGod bless and keep you and strengthen you:)
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 20 2008,12:10) No appollogy needed. I can see that I really probably don't need to be on here, tossing around Idead that I should not be anyways. I have this problem…where I talk to much…I like to carry on and I'm social. It usually ends up gettting me into a lot of trouble. I always end up saying the things that offend people that I never intend to do.
It seems the harder that I try not to offend people the more that I do.
I wish that I would not do these things.I remember back when I first got “Saved” in the church that I went to…it was such a wonderful time. There was a great youth group for me to be involved in that talked about Jesus and GOD all the time. It was a completely chairtible amptosphere.
Now it seems that every one has a different opinion about GOD.
When his book clearly states that there is only one way.
Yet there seems to have been a million ways developed over the years.Somewhere there is the TRUTH…and I am whole heartedly seeking it. I believe that I WILL FIND it. And when I do it will set me free.
I will not rest till I have found the TRUTH.
Because I'm getting a lot of lies from a lot of sources.
The Kingdom of GOD, and the TRUTH is my goal.I think that man has ignored the TRUTH and thus GOD has hardned their heart in light of that. Yes…GOD hardens hearts…look at what happened to Pharoh.
I could be wrong about some of my beliefs…if I am…I pray to GOD that he shows me the TRUTH.
I do not want to be decived anymore by the lies of this world and of Satan.I want to be free.
I really really really do.
For once in my life LORD please…hear my plea and set me free.
Amen.GODBLESS all of you and goodbye.
Samuel Please don't go. Remember what John is saying if we think that we don't sin the truth is not in us. We are all sinners and are short of the glory of God. We all have to go to the throne of God every day and confess our Sins. And the wonderful thing is that we can since we have a Mediator Jesus Christ that has died for our sins and sin is not imputed to us. But we still need to confess those sins.Samuel I love you and I do not want you to go. You are the most humble of man that I have met in a long time. If you look at other post they don't even think that they are wrong. You on the other hand have always humbled yourself. That my Brother in Christ what makes you so unique.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote Have you changed your belief? So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief. You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you?
WJ;
There are many religions and denominations in the world. Many of which believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Here is the problem with the trinity that contradicts the Bible- Jesus taught his Father was his God. So did the apostles. When you declare that Christ is the eternal Son of God without clarification, now you have to explain how the Father can be his God, if he is eternally equal with God. It does not work and it is not taught in the Bible. Moreover, you do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God as he and the apostles taught. You confess that he was God as the Word, but you do not see his sonship. This is what you have been taught. Christ said he existed with the Father as the Son of God before he came to earth.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 22 2008,05:01) Quote Have you changed your belief? So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief. You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you?
WJ;
There are many religions and denominations in the world. Many of which believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Here is the problem with the trinity that contradicts the Bible- Jesus taught his Father was his God. So did the apostles. When you declare that Christ is the eternal Son of God without clarification, now you have to explain how the Father can be his God, if he is eternally equal with God. It does not work and it is not taught in the Bible. Moreover, you do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God as he and the apostles taught. You confess that he was God as the Word, but you do not see his sonship. This is what you have been taught. Christ said he existed with the Father as the Son of God before he came to earth.
Mr SteveYou said…
Quote “Christ said he existed with the Father as the Son of God before he came to earth. Where is the scripture for this. Where did Jesus say “I was a Son of God before I was born a Son from Marys womb.
Its not there. Scriptures clearly teach that “Sons of God” are men. However Jesus was both God and man. His Eternal Spirit, the Word is God, His soul and body is man. Hence the dual nature of Jesus.
When Jesus speaks of his preexistence with the Father he never once says he was a Son. He refers to the Father as Father because now he has come in the flesh and is born a man.
You seem to be denying that he was concieved and was born a man and had a beginning as a man.
The Word which was God was made flesh or tabernacled among us and we beheld his Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father…
John 1:18
NLT
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.NIV
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.ESV
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.NASB
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.NRSV
No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known.NAB
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him.TEV
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.And finally the NET which is a very accurate modern translation using a very solid method of interpretation and many thousands of resorces.
“The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives. “
http://www.bible.org/netbible/
NET
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.This is their commentary on the verse….
“45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ �1,13 � lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. �75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in �66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this con
text, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.tn Or “The unique one.” For the meaning of μονογενής (monogenh”) see the note on “one and only” in 1:14.
46tn Grk “in the bosom of” (an idiom for closeness or nearness; cf. L&N 34.18; BDAG 556 s.v. κόλπος 1).
47tn Grk “him”; the referent God has been specified in the translation for clarity.
48sn Has made God known. In this final verse of the prologue, the climactic and ultimate statement of the earthly career of the Logos, Jesus of Nazareth, is reached. The unique One (John 1:14), the One who has taken on human form and nature by becoming incarnate (became flesh, 1:14), who is himself fully God (the Word was God, 1:1c) and is to be identified with the ever-living One of the Old Testament revelation (Exod 3:14), who is in intimate relationship with the Father, this One and no other has fully revealed what God is like. As Jesus said to Philip in John 14:9, “The one who has seen me has seen the Father.”
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm
If you dont know, all those little characters and numbers are the greek manuscripts.
Men live in flesh bodys. If Jesus was a son before he was born a son then that would mean somewhere way back in time he had a beginning. Scriptures clearly teach that “All things were made by him and without him nothing was made that was made” Everything including time space and matter came into being through him. So if he came into being by some spritual birth out of the Father, which is contrary to the laws of reproduction, and you do not have a single scripture that says Jesus was born or created before his incarnation, then that would mean that he was born at a certain point in time. Jesus was before time and scripture plainly shows according to John 1:1 and Phil 2 that Jesus was in the form of God. He was and is the express image of the Fathers substance and essence. He was and is all that the Father is. They are one.
The problem you have is you see the word “Theos” as exclusive to the Father. Theos is a title for the nature of a being, just as the words human or man is a title for the nature of a being.
Are you any less human than your Father in the flesh? Why is that so hard to grasp? You are a Human. However scriptures show that Jesus is God in nature as well as man according to John 1:1 and Phil 2.
The word theos is not found in a true or positive sense for any other being in the NT scriptures other than Jesus.
I suggest that you read some of the writtings of the early Fathers like Ignatius around 105-115 CE, who was a disciple of John who wrote John 1:1, Jn 1:18, 20:28, 1John :1-3, 5:20.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html
If anyone understood what John meant when he penned John 1:1 it would be Ignatius.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.And the Word is still God, one with the Father and the Spirit.
Men need to let go of their traditions and accept the scriptures as they read without inference and spin.
For Jesus to be the Monogenes, Unique Son of God dosnt mean that he is not God just as you are as human as your Father.
So you see my friend. I have scripture that supports my belief that Jesus is fully God as the Father and the Spirit.
One God, One Spirit, and Three Persons.
Believe and say all you want about me my friend, but I will stand on the word of God, all of it, and not spin it to fit my doctrine. There is more than one scripture that says Jesus is God, though it only takes one.
And if you will hear it, no man can know or come to the Father at anytime unless Jesus revealed him, therefore all those before Jesus incarnation, that saw or heard from YHWH was speaking to Jesus the God of the Old testament, since no man could come to God but by him.
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
Blessings!
Hi WJ,
You ask
“Where is the scripture for this. Where did Jesus say “I was a Son of God before I was born a Son from Marys womb.”
So we ask
WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD IS A TRINITY?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,11:34) Hi WJ,
You ask
“Where is the scripture for this. Where did Jesus say “I was a Son of God before I was born a Son from Marys womb.”
So we ask
WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD IS A TRINITY?
NHThe contention is not about the “Trinity”. The contention is about the scriptures revelealing Jesus as God, one with the Father, the Word that was with God and was God.
Truly Jesus as God is the Monogenes “Unique” Son of God, God in the flesh.
The question then is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, that the Father and the Son sent, is that Spirit God?
We have recieved only “One Spirit”. Does God live in you or not.
Either way the scriptures speak of three.
Call it “Trinity” if you like. No offence it dosnt matter to me.
I simply believe the scriptures as they say.
Hi WJ,
So if trinity is taught NOWHERE in scripture why do you teach it?
Perhaps you can only understand God in a trinity context?
Is that any excuse?
Perhaps you have found what seem to be tantalising hints in scripture about a trinity?
Is that sufficient reason to do this?
Perhaps you can only unmderstand scripture in a trinity god context?
Will such logic stand up to questioning at the judgement?
If it is taught not in scripture and you teach it you oppose God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,15:44) Hi WJ,
So if trinity is taught NOWHERE in scripture why do you teach it?
Perhaps you can only understand God in a trinity context?
Is that any excuse?
Perhaps you have found what seem to be tantalising hints in scripture about a trinity?
Is that sufficient reason to do this?
Perhaps you can only unmderstand scripture in a trinity god context?
Will such logic stand up to questioning at the judgement?
If it is taught not in scripture and you teach it you oppose God.
Hi NH,
So if Arianism is taught NOWHERE in scripture why do you teach it?
Perhaps you can only understand God in an Arian context?
Is that any excuse?
Perhaps you have found what seems to be tantalizing hints in scripture about Arainism?
Is that sufficient reason to do this?
Perhaps you can only understand scripture in an Arian god context?
Will such logic stand up to questioning at the judgment?
If it is taught not in scripture and you teach it you oppose God.You see NH what you say can come right back to you. I have scripture supporting my belief just as you claim you have scriptures supporting yours.
So why don’t you get off of that high horse and stop accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you as opposing God. You know not the hearts and minds of those who post here, nor their relationship with God, especially those that have confessed Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Careful my friend, how you condemn and accuse others as opposing God just because they don't agree with you, for when you accuse others you may be of the spirit of the antichrist, the accuser of the brethren and find yourself putting your finger in the apple of Gods eye.
I doubt that any accuser of the brethren will stand up to questioning in the judgment day as you put it.
Offences will come, but woe be to the one who offends.
Remember the words of our Lord and Savior….
“And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us”. Lk 9:50
: )
Hi WJ,
You miss the point.
TRINITY is a nonbiblical doctrine.
You should not teach what is not written there.WJ, please answer me this.
I still don't understand why those who wanted Jesus dead and were willing to break laws to do it…..I don't understand why they wouldn't have accused Jesus of claiming he was God almighty. Instead, they only charged him with claiming to be the son of God, as Jesus said.
So why? If they were willing to do anything, and they were, why pick the lesser charge?
It seems unfathomable to me.
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