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Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,04:40) Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,04:21) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,04:10) Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,02:43) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 18 2008,16:14) Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him. This is no mystery. He is above all.
Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent. Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John. Read what Jesus says. Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin. He says he is from above. If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant. Either way, you do not believe.
This isn't a light issue.
Steven
Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion.
Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth…….verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.
Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL.
That my friend you should take to the bank.
Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD.
Can this be any plainer?
Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning.
The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth………………
This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24)I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Because that is not what the scripture says in the original intent. You can not read these scriptures from a western mindset and think you understand them.
What mindset, that makes no sense. You are just ignoring scriptures, that is all my Friend. You are talking nonsense.
I forgot one more scripture
John 17:5 AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOHETHER WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOUB E F O R E T H E W O R L D W A S.
Peace and Love Mrs.
P.S. Were you ever Baptized according to scripture?
Have you not read the posts I have made on the Hebrew culture and mindset of those that wrote the scriptures?
Scripture was written within and through the culture of the Hebrews. Without understanding that they percieved the world differently and wrote differently, you cannot understand scripture.
You continually qoute English translations as if Paul and others wrote in English. Try the original language as understood within the Hebrew culture.
I am asking you to make us understand what you are saying? So why don't you do so? Write down what you mean? I only know German and English.Peace and Love Mrs.
Ok let me give just one example of the difference between the Greek or Western thought and the way in which the Hebrews thought.Greek thought describes objects in relation to its appearance. Hebrew thought describes objects in relation to its function.
This is also brought out in the way they wrote. For example if a Hebrew calls a person God it does not mean they are literally God. That is abstract thinking. The Hebrew would mean that person functions as God.
In Palms 82 God rebukes the leaders of Israel for not functioning as Gods to the people.
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”From an abstract western viewpoint, verse 6 would say that these leaders were literally Gods. The term Gods in this verse is Elohiym. The same word used to describe God all through scripture.
God was rebuking the leaders of Israel for not acting appropriately to the people. Jesus quotes this verse in John 10:34?Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ' I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Jesus again uses this verse to point out that the pharasees were not acting/functioning as God to the people.It makes no difference if it is written in Hebrew or Greek in the NT. The Hebrew way of thinking and perceiving the world must be considered. Let’s look at one of your verses. I am going to delete the verse divisions to properly see it together.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
(The words “for by him all things were created” are not in the Greek. The Greek says “in him”. It is a functional description of the creation having purpose through the work of Jesus Christ. Without his ministry and redeeming work creation has no function or purpose.)
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
(He is before all things in that it is his functional position. Through him and in him all things come to fruition and have meaning.)
18He is
also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
(Notice here scripture clearly defines how he is the firstborn. He is the firstborn from the dead. This is not something that happens prior to creation but it happens upon His resurrection. Again it says that He is first place in everything. First place in all of creation. Not time ways but as a position and function.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.(Again it is THROUGH HIM that everything is reconciled in all of creation. Through His ministry, death, resurrection and mediation work that all of creation has meaning and purpose. He stand before all things. Not literally but in preeminence of function. He was the first human being to function correctly as God designed. The firstborn from the dead.)
The Western thinker sees Christ before creation and sees it by way of appearance. They think Christ appeared in time before the creation.
The Hebrew sees this functionally. AND THESE SCRIPTURES WERE WRITTEN BY HEBREWS. Jesus is the first one to function correctly in all of creation. Of all men, He is the first from the dead. The first to accomplish what God set for all men. He is before all creation because He is the first to do it. He is the forerunner for the rest of us. Jesus is preeminent. He has eminence “pre” prior to anyone one else. This eminence was a result of His Earthy work.
This is the preeminence of Christ –
18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.All of the verses you have posted are as easily explained. I hope you can understand the concept.
Martian All that I am going to say to, is that you are trying to take scripture apart and make something else out of it. To me that is not what it is. You either believe what scripture says or not, I for one believe what the word of God teaches, rather then what men, like you do. Thank you for your trouble.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,07:46) Martian All that I am going to say to, is that you are trying to take scripture apart and make something else out of it. To me that is not what it is. You either believe what scripture says or not, I for one believe what the word of God teaches, rather then what men, like you do. Thank you for your trouble.
Peace and Love Mrs.
In other words you are not willing to hear the truth. You have a preconceived idea of doctrine that someone told you and anything that might contradict it is dismissed. You say you want to study scripture but you read the English and AGAIN act as if that is what was written by Paul. Absolute silliness. If you do not want to follow scripture then follow the English translators with no check to see if they are correct.Talk about following man? You are following translations of scripture made by biased Trinitarian translators, who promote the pre=existence of Christ because it strengthens their idea of the Trinity. You say you believe scripture. That is a lie. You believe what the translators tell you to believe. You follow men.
If I were to bring you an original copy of scripture and show you that what the English says is wrong, would you dismiss the original for the modern? That is exactly what you have done. You reject the real words of scripture for a translation that supports your doctrine.
Here is a Trinitarian proof text.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.You must accept this verse even though it is not in the original. It is in the KJV and others so you must accept it. You accept the modern translations when it supports your purposes so accept this one too.
Funny that you do exactly what you accuse me of doing. I study and research the real meaning of the original scriptures based on archeological cultural and linguistic data. I confirm that through dozens of scholars. You pick up someone’s biased translation and claim it’s truth. You are probably a wonderful person but your study habits in scripture are foolish and silly!!!!
Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,08:32) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,07:46) Martian All that I am going to say to, is that you are trying to take scripture apart and make something else out of it. To me that is not what it is. You either believe what scripture says or not, I for one believe what the word of God teaches, rather then what men, like you do. Thank you for your trouble.
Peace and Love Mrs.
In other words you are not willing to hear the truth. You have a preconceived idea of doctrine that someone told you and anything that might contradict it is dismissed. You say you want to study scripture but you read the English and AGAIN act as if that is what was written by Paul. Absolute silliness. If you do not want to follow scripture then follow the English translators with no check to see if they are correct.Talk about following man? You are following translations of scripture made by biased Trinitarian translators, who promote the pre=existence of Christ because it strengthens their idea of the Trinity. You say you believe scripture. That is a lie. You believe what the translators tell you to believe. You follow men.
If I were to bring you an original copy of scripture and show you that what the English says is wrong, would you dismiss the original for the modern? That is exactly what you have done. You reject the real words of scripture for a translation that supports your doctrine.
Here is a Trinitarian proof text.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.You must accept this verse even though it is not in the original. It is in the KJV and others so you must accept it. You accept the modern translations when it supports your purposes so accept this one too.
Funny that you do exactly what you accuse me of doing. I study and research the real meaning of the original scriptures based on archeological cultural and linguistic data. I confirm that through dozens of scholars. You pick up someone’s biased translation and claim it’s truth. You are probably a wonderful person but your study habits in scripture are foolish and silly!!!!
martain You know what I don't care what you belief, belief what you want. But I am not going sit here and be insulted by you, I had enough of that with Kevin and I am not going to do it again. I will not say anything to you again. Goodbye.Hello Martian,
I am trying to grasp this Hebrew way of thought as “function”.
Meanwhile, I would like to know why the definition of the greek word “en”, according to Strong's #1722 can be translated as “by” or “in” but according to you, if I understand you correctly, “by” isn't even an option and it must be “in”? Why would you be dogmatic on this? See the definition below according to Strong's.I am referring to the following statement you made about Col 1:17:
(The words “for by him all things were created” are not in the Greek. The Greek says “in him”. It is a functional description of the creation having purpose through the work of Jesus Christ. Without his ministry and redeeming work creation has no function or purpose.)
The definition according to Strongs:
NT:1722en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); “in,” at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright  1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
This greek word in the New Testament is translated in several ways including as “by”. The translation as “by” is certainly an option.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2008,11:34) Hello Martian,
I am trying to grasp this Hebrew way of thought as “function”.
Meanwhile, I would like to know why the definition of the greek word “en”, according to Strong's #1722 can be translated as “by” or “in” but according to you, if I understand you correctly, “by” isn't even an option and it must be “in”? Why would you be dogmatic on this? See the definition below according to Strong's.I am referring to the following statement you made about Col 1:17:
(The words “for by him all things were created” are not in the Greek. The Greek says “in him”. It is a functional description of the creation having purpose through the work of Jesus Christ. Without his ministry and redeeming work creation has no function or purpose.)
The definition according to Strongs:
NT:1722en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); “in,” at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
This greek word in the New Testament is translated in several ways including as “by”. The translation as “by” is certainly an option.
Lightenup and sauwfYou have to understand that martian is his own authority when it comes to translating the scriptures.
He has no Greek or Hebrew degrees, yet he defies the translations of over 600 Greek and Hebrew scholars who I am quite sure that if they could read Greek and Hebrew they knew a whole lot more about the Hebrew culture and mindset than martian does. Besides the NT scriptures were written in “Koine Greek”, not Hebrew, maybe we should find out how the Greeks thought and what their mindset was.
Even the Torah and the Tanakh was translated into Greek and it is called the Septuagent.
Yet he claims that all the translations were put together by biased Trinitarians which is a missleading statement at best.
Maybe those who do not like the English Translations should translate their own version. After all that would be the most honourable thing to do rather than use the english translations when it benifits you and your doctrine and then critize it or call it corrupt when it dosn't.
Take a look at the JWs, instead of using what they say is biased or corrupt versions of the Greek and Hebrew text they at least were noble enough to stop critisizing the others and translated their own.
By the way, notice how he interpreted the sciptures that sauwf gave him. I didnt see him use a single Greek word except one, “en” and as LU has pointed out it can mean both “In and By”. “Dia” in John 1:3 also can mean by or through. Truthfully I see no difference in the two.
Example: “By” the words I speak there is Love!
“In” the words I speak there is Love!
And also we are talking about thousands of years ago, so by what authority or writtings about the Hebrew mindset does martian have that can be trusted more than scripture. To me he puts history and mans opinions about the Hebrews mindset above the written word, and that would surely be a functional work of man.
Gotta run dont have much time. Working on 50 page Thesis for graduation, building an addition and taking care of my family and run my buisness. Shew!
Blessings
I corrected the word “dia” with “en”. My bad.
Outstanding!
I'm not sure of all the things that I'm supposed to know about the Bible yet…otherwise I would probably not still be reading and studying it.
But to make a statement that your right and everyone else is wrong is naive at best.
Even if that were the case its not a spirit to have. Which makes people that are all full of them self and bent out of shape about why no one believes them makes me think they might possibly have a bad spirit.
Someone with a truth and full of the spirit of GOD and that loves GOD with all their heart and bears the True Gospel to you…is not going to act like a heinous aristocrat.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Glory to GOD! That scripture right there should make you want to tell everyone you see tomorrow that GOD is on a mission to fellowship with them!
If everyone were already perfect and already “Saved” and everything was just peachy there would not have been a reason for Jesus to come down here and fight the fight for us that we obviously lost. But praise GOD he said …I'm going to help my people/creation…I'm gonna make a way for them to fellowship with me again…I'm gonna fight the war for them.
And so he did.
My Biggest problem is my “Mouth” and my “Attitude”. I get myself in so much stuff that I have to go squalling back to back to Jesus about every day.
I've prayed a many nights “Jesus, just fix me, fix me so I don't do these things ever again. Please Lord fix me”
We have to keep fighting…people under the influence of Satan are out to destroy our minds and our faith, and our light.
But this little light of mine…I'm gonna let it shine…it is kills me I'm gonna let the light that the LORD gave me shine.
I'm done debating with aristocrats about this and that and all this non-sense…if people would just do what the …if even I would just do that the LORD wants us to do ….we probably would not ever have another disagreement, or problem about what the word of GOD said at all.
Ever.
If we would quit rebelling and bucking up against the will of GOD…we would be so much better off.
Then, maybe then we might actually learn something.
If you don't leave room in your “Thesis” that you might just maybe have the wrong idea about something your going to be in for a hard fall…most likely. Look at all the stories in the Bible …how many times all the GREAT men of GOD were wrong about stuff. And GOD had to show them that they were wrong.
Take Abraham for example…they went so far as to even laugh in the face of GOD about the child they were going to have. Saying “We're old we ain't gonna be havin' no child” They even had there maid bare them a son. But it was not the son that GOD promised them. And …guess what …yep you guessed it. They ended up with more problems over that whole deal than they would have had …if they would have just listened to GOD…and said “You know…I think we might be wrong…and GODS probably right…lets wait on GOD”
GOD help us to wait on you LORD. I pray that we can do your great will in this world …with out all this disagreement. And foul attitudes
Amen.
GODBLESS you all and may the LORD guide your steps.
Hello!
Is this the same guy that critisizes and gossips here about his Trinitarian church and then speaks of mercy and love?
If a man can not speak his peace about someone to their face it is best to not say anything at all or just leave that church.
Hi worshippingJesus,
Where have you been? I have missed you.
That was a silly question after the post telling of your daily work load right now, huh?
Take care to not overdo.Tim
Maybe I will…sorry for posting on your forums.
GODBLESS you all and good luck.
And it was not a Trinty church I go to its a Oneness. And I was not critizing them…I was Pointing out the things that I don't agree with…
And yes I've already spoken with the pastor about it.
He told me to just keep coming there was not going to be any hard feelings. He is a really good GOD loving man.But if this is the way you all are going to treat people here…then I'm out.
I've done nothing to you sir.
I'll pray that I can fix my attitude so that I might be able to get along with people like you in the futrue better.Later.
I'm sorry for anything that I've done or said to you people. Please forgive me.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2008,11:34) Hello Martian,
I am trying to grasp this Hebrew way of thought as “function”.
Meanwhile, I would like to know why the definition of the greek word “en”, according to Strong's #1722 can be translated as “by” or “in” but according to you, if I understand you correctly, “by” isn't even an option and it must be “in”? Why would you be dogmatic on this? See the definition below according to Strong's.I am referring to the following statement you made about Col 1:17:
(The words “for by him all things were created” are not in the Greek. The Greek says “in him”. It is a functional description of the creation having purpose through the work of Jesus Christ. Without his ministry and redeeming work creation has no function or purpose.)
The definition according to Strongs:
NT:1722en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); “in,” at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
This greek word in the New Testament is translated in several ways including as “by”. The translation as “by” is certainly an option.
MY source comes from Westcot and Hort Translation of the Greek which defines it as in and not by. It aslo fits within the functional descriptions of how Hebrews would have dexcribed the situation.Samuel,
Don't leave. From the posts of yours that I have read, which aren't many, I have the impression that you have a tender and kind spirit. My last post to you was meant to encourage you and now this. God bless your path!Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 20 2008,01:58) Maybe I will…sorry for posting on your forums. GODBLESS you all and good luck.
And it was not a Trinty church I go to its a Oneness. And I was not critizing them…I was Pointing out the things that I don't agree with…
And yes I've already spoken with the pastor about it.
He told me to just keep coming there was not going to be any hard feelings. He is a really good GOD loving man.But if this is the way you all are going to treat people here…then I'm out.
I've done nothing to you sir.
I'll pray that I can fix my attitude so that I might be able to get along with people like you in the futrue better.Later.
I'm sorry for anything that I've done or said to you people. Please forgive me.
samuelThere is no need to opoligize unless you have done something wrong.
My comment was in respnse to your accusation of me stating I am right and everyone else is wrong. I never said such in any of my post.
Also you then go on to talk about mercy and Love because I was pointing out what I believe to be error on martians part.
And of course you refered to me as being an aristicrat, I suppose was because I had mentioned my schooling.
This is the first time I have mentioned my schooling on this sight and it was not to boast but simply explain why I have not posted to much lately.
So forgive me for offending you. Truly I seek my best to not patronize or condemn another.
Blessings!
To be honest with you Worshipping …
I never even read your post. I really could not even tell you what it says.
I was just making the post in reguards to how much disagreement has went on in this thread in general.
It huts my soul to see people (us people, all of us including myself) not being able to hold true to the same doctrine. And to go about fussing with each other all the time.
I just want to sit at the bank of the river of life and not have to worry about all this stuff anymore.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2008,23:52) Hi worshippingJesus,
Where have you been? I have missed you.
That was a silly question after the post telling of your daily work load right now, huh?
Take care to not overdo.Tim
TimThanks!
I have been realy busy. However things are good. God is good.
I have been checking in ocassionally.
I dont quite understand this line…
Quote That was a silly question after the post telling of your daily work load right now, huh?
Anyway good to talk to you and wish you and yours the very best.
Blessings.
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 20 2008,03:25) To be honest with you Worshipping … I never even read your post. I really could not even tell you what it says.
I was just making the post in reguards to how much disagreement has went on in this thread in general.
It huts my soul to see people (us people, all of us including myself) not being able to hold true to the same doctrine. And to go about fussing with each other all the time.
I just want to sit at the bank of the river of life and not have to worry about all this stuff anymore.
samuelI find that interesting that you hadnt read my post.
Since you did refer to a Thesis. What a coincidence huh?
Anyway I hope you accept my oppoligy for offending you!
Blessings!
Lightenup –
Ah Yes, Here comes WJ with his reliance on the 600 scholars and degrees. Such silliness. I have never claimed to have a degree in Greek or Hebrew. So What! I can read a book or search an educational web site. I am sure that WJ’s 600 scholars thought they were doing the right thing. Just like the translators of the KJV that mislead millions with 1 John 5:8 and falsely translating Baptism. All done to appease the prevalent teaching of the Church of England and the Catholic Church. These are the same type of scholars that wrote book after book supposedly proving the Trinity. How much did their education help them if they have come up with that nonsense.
These 600 translators relied heavily upon the previous works of others, much of this work dates to a time previous to profound discoveries in archeology and linguistics. Most predate the Dead Sea Scrools and the very important work done on the 3800 year old pictographs found in Irak.Wj relies heavily upon common evangelical proofs and has not accepted anything that contradicts the beliefs from the 1800s. His theology is a throw back to a time when little real knowledge of Hebrew culture or pictographs existed. Only recently have these areas been investigated and discovered.
As to WJ’s claim that the NT was original in Greek? That comment is so typical. I have heard him in previous posts talk about the church father’s when it supported his doctrine and yet He ignores these.
Papias (150-170 CE) – Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able.
Ireneus (170 CE) – Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
Origen (210 CE) – The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apoltle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
Eusebius (315 CE) – Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings.
Epiphanius (370 CE) – They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters.
Jerome ( 382 CE) – Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collectore came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian cityof Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist…. makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew
Isho'dad (850 CE) – His [Matthew's] book was in existence in Caesarea of Palestine, and everyone acknowledges that he wrote it with his hands in Hebrew.In addition Josephus relates clearly that the language of Israel was Hebrew and in fact as a Hebrew, he did not even speak Greek but had to learn it to translate his histories.
There is also the evidence of the hundreds of idioms (sayings) found in the text that make no sense in English or Greek but make perfect sense in Hebrew.
In closing lightenup, how much credence can you put in what WJ has to say when after years of Nick and others writing him concerning the Trinity, he still hangs onto that pagan blasphemy.
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