The Trinity Doctrine

[Is 1:18]

John 19:7
The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.“

CF.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.“

“The Jews” equated the title “Son of God” with Yeshua making Himself equal with God, and being God…..

[ronday888]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 23 2008,03:38)

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.“ CF. John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.“ “The Jews” equated the title “Son of God” with Yeshua making Himself equal with God, and being God…..

Jesus never broke his God's laws concerning the sabbath, nor did he make himself out to be his God, nor did he ever claim to be equal to his God. What the lying and deceiving Jewish leaders claimed is irrelevant.

Regarding John 5:18, see my post on page 1013:
http://tinyurl.com/2vvajz

Christian love,
Ronald

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2008,06:47)

martian First of all yoiu are talking about one Gospel out of 27 NT books. Second you say… Quote In closing lightenup, how much credence can you put in what WJ has to say when after years of Nick and others writing him concerning the Trinity, he still hangs onto that pagan blasphemy. This is insulting but hillarious seeing that you have been arguing your “funtional theory” here for a long time and recently been arguing with NH and others about Jesus preexistence. Nobody on this sight with the exception of GB agrees with you either. Have you changed your belief? So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief. You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you? 1 Jn 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world 2 Jn 1:7 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world You see I could say by those scriptures that you are of the Spirit of the antichrist and dont know him, but I dont know your heart just as you dont know mine. But we can know them by their fruit. Patronizing and name calling and condemning is not fruit but is of the world and is inspired by the accuser of the brethren. If I am in error than give me the unambiguous scripture that says so not some gobly goop about Hebrew mindset or culture that you have gathered from modern day apologist. Meanwhile like you I hang on to my beliefs as you hang on to yours. So I will just leave the name calling to you and others who claim they have the truth and Trinitarians like myself are lost and blind. Blessings

Are you on here for the same reasons I am on here? I am on hee for pure entertainment purposes. I do not expect to have my opinions changed nor do I expect to cjhange anyone elses. You and NH seem to think this is some kind of a ministry and seem to actualy believe that you will change the others mind or at least have some impact on the Kingdom.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2008,04:45)

Hi Martian, I really do not want to discuss about WJ with you.  For know, I just want to know if you use the Strong's concordance/dictionary in your studies?

I do however since I use the NAS for most study, I ust that concordance in most cases. It is very much like strongs. I also cross refference with strongs. I also use ISBE. International Standard Bibile Encyclopedia, several Bible Dictionaries. zondervon, Whyclifs, Vines, Benners Hebrew Lexicon, Mechanical translation of the book of Genesis, The Complete Jewish Bible, Naves Topical Bible,Westcot and Hort Greek translation, A T Robertsons' Greek NT and many online sources.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2008,06:47)

martian First of all yoiu are talking about one Gospel out of 27 NT books. Second you say… Quote In closing lightenup, how much credence can you put in what WJ has to say when after years of Nick and others writing him concerning the Trinity, he still hangs onto that pagan blasphemy. This is insulting but hillarious seeing that you have been arguing your “funtional theory” here for a long time and recently been arguing with NH and others about Jesus preexistence. Nobody on this sight with the exception of GB agrees with you either. Have you changed your belief? So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief. You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you? 1 Jn 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world 2 Jn 1:7 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world You see I could say by those scriptures that you are of the Spirit of the antichrist and dont know him, but I dont know your heart just as you dont know mine. But we can know them by their fruit. Patronizing and name calling and condemning is not fruit but is of the world and is inspired by the accuser of the brethren. If I am in error than give me the unambiguous scripture that says so not some gobly goop about Hebrew mindset or culture that you have gathered from modern day apologist. Meanwhile like you I hang on to my beliefs as you hang on to yours. So I will just leave the name calling to you and others who claim they have the truth and Trinitarians like myself are lost and blind. Blessings

AS to the 27 books, I was only using one that has very clear proof. The fact that the others are written by Hebrews within a Hebrew culture and through a Hebrew mindset precludes that one must understand them from that perspective. No matter the language in which they are written they still viewed the worl and God from a Hebrew perspective.

AS to your verses about coming in the flesh, What do you believe “comming in the flesh means”?

[martian]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 23 2008,04:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2008,06:47) martian First of all yoiu are talking about one Gospel out of 27 NT books. Second you say… Quote In closing lightenup, how much credence can you put in what WJ has to say when after years of Nick and others writing him concerning the Trinity, he still hangs onto that pagan blasphemy. This is insulting but hillarious seeing that you have been arguing your “funtional theory” here for a long time and recently been arguing with NH and others about Jesus preexistence. Nobody on this sight with the exception of GB agrees with you either. Have you changed your belief? So I guess no one should put credence on anything you say either huh? Tell me martian how it is you can claim my doctrine is pagan blasphemy because I dont agree with NH and you and others when I use the same Bible you do with scriptures supporting my belief. You do know that those who do not accept Jesus coming in the flesh, which means he preexisted, is not of God dont you? 1 Jn 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world 2 Jn 1:7 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world You see I could say by those scriptures that you are of the Spirit of the antichrist and dont know him, but I dont know your heart just as you dont know mine. But we can know them by their fruit. Patronizing and name calling and condemning is not fruit but is of the world and is inspired by the accuser of the brethren. If I am in error than give me the unambiguous scripture that says so not some gobly goop about Hebrew mindset or culture that you have gathered from modern day apologist. Meanwhile like you I hang on to my beliefs as you hang on to yours. So I will just leave the name calling to you and others who claim they have the truth and Trinitarians like myself are lost and blind. Blessings   AS to the 27 books, I was only using one that has very clear proof. The fact that the others are written by Hebrews within a Hebrew culture and through a Hebrew mindset precludes that one must understand them from that perspective. No matter the language in which they are written they still viewed the worl and God from a Hebrew perspective. AS to your verses about coming in the flesh, What do you believe “comming in the flesh means”?

Why are you insulted? I did not insult you personally. I insulted your doctrine. Are you solely defined by your doctrine? Furthermore the claim that the Trinity is a pagan blasephemy is not as much an insult as it is a statement of fact. The very basic foundation of the Trinity Christ and the Father being of the same essence is the responsibility of Constantine a Pagan Sun worshipper. You mat claim to not follow Constatine but that is the root of your beliefs.
I know you are going to say I am an Aryan. You have tried that before. The problem with it is that neither you are anyone else really knows what Arias believed since His writings were destroyed and nothing remains except writings of His accusers.
If all that remained for posterity of your beliefs were the written accusation of your enemies, would that be a fair depictions of your beliefs?
The fact that Arius was attacked by the Church is no proof whatsoever that He was wrong. The ground is saturated with the blbod of reformers and Godly men that stood against the mixing of paganism and the church as became rampant after the apostles died.

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 20 2008,05:39)

Martian…… I have a request of you, would you go to Finding Believers  web site and explain your views on some of these subjects. peace to you and yours…………gene

Is “Finders Believers” another mesage board? I may not have the time for another one. I am already on three of them. I will, however look at it.

[Lightenup]

Martian,

You say:
“I am on hee for pure entertainment purposes. I do not expect to have my opinions changed nor do I expect to cjhange anyone elses. You and NH seem to think this is some kind of a ministry and seem to actualy believe that you will change the others mind or at least have some impact on the Kingdom.”

My thoughts.
Martian, perhaps your time would be better served for the edification of others if you too were more interested in helping and loving others on this board rather than for selfish ambition.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You say
“Are you on here for the same reasons I am on here? I am on hee for pure entertainment purposes. I do not expect to have my opinions changed nor do I expect to cjhange anyone elses. You and NH seem to think this is some kind of a ministry and seem to actualy believe that you will change the others mind or at least have some impact on the Kingdom. “

I do not care if you choose to cover your ears and never learn but you do not seem to understand or be honest with yourself. While constantly claiming this is just an entertainment venue for you, you insist we believe in your greek logic view of scripture while then saying it is based on hebrew thought.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2008,04:51)

Martian, You say: “I am on hee for pure entertainment purposes. I do not expect to have my opinions changed nor do I expect to cjhange anyone elses. You and NH seem to think this is some kind of a ministry and seem to actualy believe that you will change the others mind or at least have some impact on the Kingdom.” My thoughts. Martian, perhaps your time would be better served for the edification of others if you too were more interested in helping and loving others on this board rather than for selfish ambition.

It is not a lack of desire to love or help it is a belief that this type of venue is not condusive to the love and help you have mentioned.

I am not interested in changing someones mind about doctrine. I am inteested in leading them to their perfect example in Christ that they may recieve what God has for them. Nothing in my experiance has proven to me that this type of venue is effective in that quest.
It is a very poor excure for communication. So much is missed in the way of vocal inflection body language and eye contat. Thee factors contribute a great deal to communication and without the, there is great tendency toward missunderstaning. There is no demonstration of power of God in this venue to back up a persons walk with God. There is no personal contact so very vital in really taking care of your brethren. I have been online with some that put perenthesis around a name to sifnify a hug t them. How very sad that our society has come to a point where the most vulnerable we are willing to be in 1000 miles away through the intenet. I realise that for some this is all they have. That does not make it right or fulfilling.

You assume a selfish agenda as if to defend some righteous agenda built into this forum. I saw no restrictions that proclaim we are to have a certain motives for being here and no one can judge my motives but God. Others have tried and I have rightly caled them on usurping that postion of God alone.

Some believe this venue has purpose in proclaiming doctrine. I dissagree. True doctrine/teaching is a matter of the heart first. Untill the internet people figure out a way to really express that they will always stand far down the line from true teaching.

So many of the attributes of teaching as Christ diministrated are missing here as to make it only a shadow of that process. It is simply a matter of data exchange. It is only slightly more personal thn me reading your beliefs on a web page. In fact it is very much like an interactive data processor.

You have no authority to lay claim to knowledge of my heart toward the brethren or my desire to love or minister to them. You only know me from this silly web site which does very little to display those things. In fact the very nature of this discussion board places it's participants in an agressive and somewhat antagonistic battle with eachother. That is what debate is all about. Go back a year or so and read the posts of WJ and Nick. you will see a greater amount of sweetness then you see now. Interaction toward these two has caused more hard feelings toward them then they initially had. They have taken and given personal attacks even when none was intended and responded emotionally to things that I do not believe they would have done in person. Many on hee take great personal affront to dissagreement to their doctrines. What nonsense! Some (though they will not admit it) act as if their doctrines, other then salvation, determine salvation. No where do I see the belief in the Trinity (or not) has an effect on a persons salvation.

You want eddification? Come to a church and see a stricken child healed of polio. Let a real man of God lay hands and pray for you that your character might be changed. Stand in the back of a good church and see the breath of God sweep accross the people and see them spontaniously break out in songs of the spirit. Hear testimonies of people healed and delivered of sins and hurts. Hear prophecies and tngues and interpretations in person and fel the presence of God in them and marvel at God's words. And finally experiance a hug in person from a brother that knows you both good and bad and loves you anyway. A brother that you can depend on to care about your soul regardless of your faults. That is real edification. Tell me where in all of this forum can I go to experiance that!

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You too can learn.
You should listen.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2008,06:18)

Hi martian, You say “Are you on here for the same reasons I am on here?  I am on hee for pure entertainment purposes. I do not expect to have my opinions changed nor do I expect to cjhange anyone elses. You and NH seem to think this is some kind of a ministry and seem to actualy believe that you will change the others mind or at least have some impact on the Kingdom. “ I do not care if you choose to cover your ears and never learn but you do not seem to understand or be honest with yourself. While constantly claiming this is just an entertainment venue for you, you insist we believe in your greek logic view of scripture while then saying it is based on hebrew thought.

I could just as easily take the stand of the Trinitarians for debate. Would you prefer that. This site is about intelectual knowledge and not about anything else. It is a debate forum.

You debate also. Do you not insist that others believe in your pre=existance theories? Does Wj not insist that othrs believe in his Trinity theories?

My ears are wide open. I do not cover them. I do ignore quite a bit of what I hear because it is the ame old dog and pony show I have seen and heard for 30 years. And that includes the things you have been pushing. I have refuted John 1 on here a dozen times. What good has it doen. Nothing. And yet every page someone like WJ throws out the same dog and pony show of John 1.
You say I spoeak in greek terms and I completely dissagree. If any one is stuck in a Greek philosophical thinking it is you and WJ. You have not a clue about Hebrew culture or language and completely ignore the impact on scripture that it has. I have posted dozens of vaifiable understandings of the hebrew and you and others hav ignored them. Talk about blind and deaf. You refuse to understand the original scriptures or those that penned them in preference to your doctrines. You are not looking for teaching or truth. You are simple looking for a place to publish your proof. Now that is entertaining and the lively debate is interesting, but that is all it accomplishes. You agenda is not to promote the plan of God or to chage peoples lives. You agenda is to deabte doctrine by virtue of publishing your proof texts.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2008,06:53)

Hi martian, You too can learn. You should listen.

Listen to what? The same old dog and pony show? It is a brolen record that I have refuted and dismissed 30 years ago. No one has shown me one proof text that I have not already studied and rejected as proof of their claim.

[martian]

Now I am outta here for the day.
Hope you all ahve a good Easter if ou celebrate that holiday.

[Lightenup]

Martian and all,
This message board can be used for good by God and it also can be used to destroy. It IS possible to sharpen one another with debate done with wisdom and love.

Prov 27:17
17 Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another.

1 Cor 16:13-14

13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love.

If anyone is opposed to others opinions that post on here, it can still be handled kindly even if they are “evil men”.

Luke 6:35-36
35 “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 ” Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
NASU

1 Cor 10:23-25

23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
NASU

The internet has given us more “neighbors” to edify. It is limiting as you know but the power of the Holy Spirit to work through it, if God so chooses, is not.

This opportunity to exchange comments with one another is indeed more challenging than in person but then again it can be more freeing to express your true thoughts. The risk of being rejected for your beliefs is less because there is no one that really knows who you are and you can simply change your identity. In person you can't do that.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (ronday888 @ Mar. 23 2008,03:31)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 23 2008,03:38) John 19:7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.“ CF. John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.“ “The Jews” equated the title “Son of God” with Yeshua making Himself equal with God, and being God….. Jesus never broke his God's laws concerning the sabbath, nor did he make himself out to be his God, nor did he ever claim to be equal to his God. What the lying and deceiving Jewish leaders claimed is irrelevant. Regarding John 5:18, see my post on page 1013: http://tinyurl.com/2vvajz Christian love, Ronald

So was what the “lying and deceiving Jewish leaders” claimed in John 19:7 irrelevant?

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2008,08:31)

Martian and all, This message board can be used for good by God and it also can be used to destroy. It IS possible to sharpen one another with debate done with wisdom and love. Prov 27:17 17 Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another. 1 Cor 16:13-14 13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love. If anyone is opposed to others opinions that post on here, it can still be handled kindly even if they are “evil men”. Luke 6:35-36 35 “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.  36 ” Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.   NASU 1 Cor 10:23-25 23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. NASU The internet has given us more “neighbors” to edify.  It is limiting as you know but the power of the Holy Spirit to work through it, if God so chooses, is not. This opportunity to exchange comments with one another is indeed more challenging than in person but then again it can be more freeing to express your true thoughts.  The risk of being rejected for your beliefs is less because there is no one that really knows who you are and you can simply change your identity.  In person you can't do that.

You say –
Martian and all,
This message board can be used for good by God and it also can be used to destroy. It IS possible to sharpen one another with debate done with wisdom and love.

Prov 27:17
17 Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another.

Response –
Prov 27
22Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain,
Yet his foolishness will not depart from him.

How much pounding have most taken on here and nothing has been changed.

You say –
1 Cor 16:13-14

13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love.

If anyone is opposed to others opinions that post on here, it can still be handled kindly even if they are “evil men”.

Luke 6:35-36
35 “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 ” Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
NASU

1 Cor 10:23-25

23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
NASU

Response –
Let’s all of us dig a hole in the sand and then fill it up again BUT LET’S DO IT IN LOVE. If the hole serves no purpose it is a little matter if you do it in love or not.

[seek and you will find]

Martian It is so sad that you are so angry. I just like to know why? We all know that this website has always been for debating, and if you don't like it you can always leave, right? It is your choice. Even tho I came on here to fellowship I too had to realize that this is not a Church, just a Websit. I have learned that there are so many different beliefs, which I was not aware of before. So what do we have to do with this. Prove all things. Sort all things out. Some do not use a loving way to communicate I agree with that, but we have to except that too. That is what Humanity is all about. We are all fall short of the glory of God. We all are sinners, nobody is perfect, yet. I have leanrded one thing and that is to be patient with others.
So think it over, Martian.
Bless you and may God keep you in His Love today and always.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[martian]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 24 2008,04:36)

Martian It is so sad that you are so angry. I just like to know why?  We all know that this website has always been for debating, and if you don't like it you can always leave, right? It is your choice. Even tho I came on here to fellowship I too had to realize that this is not a Church, just a Websit. I have learned that there are so many different beliefs,  which I was not aware of before. So what do we have to do with this. Prove all things. Sort all things out. Some do not use a loving way to communicate I agree with that, but we have to except that too. That is what Humanity is all about. We are all fall short of the glory of God. We all are sinners, nobody is perfect, yet. I have leanrded one thing and that is to be patient with others. So think it over, Martian. Bless you and may God keep you in His Love today and always. Peace and Love Mrs.

Who said I was angry? but thank you for illustrating my point. By assuming I am angry you illustrate the very poor communication posibility in this type of forum.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 24 2008,05:04)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 24 2008,04:36) Martian It is so sad that you are so angry. I just like to know why?  We all know that this website has always been for debating, and if you don't like it you can always leave, right? It is your choice. Even tho I came on here to fellowship I too had to realize that this is not a Church, just a Website. I have learned that there are so many different beliefs,  which I was not aware of before. So what do we have to do with this. Prove all things. Sort all things out. Some do not use a loving way to communicate I agree with that, but we have to except that too. That is what Humanity is all about. We are all fall short of the glory of God. We all are sinners, nobody is perfect, yet. I have leanrded one thing and that is to be patient with others. So think it over, Martian. Bless you and may God keep you in His Love today and always. Peace and Love Mrs. Who said I was angry?  but thank you for illustrating my point. By assuming I am angry you illustrate the very poor communication possibility in this type of forum.

Martian Maybe you are not angry, sometimes one does not even know how angry one might sound, and that in it selves is bad. Inside you are angry and do not even know that you are that too can be the possibility. It is the person responsibility not to sound that way. So write somewhat kinder and you will not have that problem. See what I mean? But like I said before we are more likely to do that more when writing in a Forum like this then in real live. With that I agree.
So good luck with all.
Peace and Love Mrs.

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