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lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus.
IMO………gene
Quote (martian @ Mar. 11 2008,03:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,12:29) Quote (martian @ Mar. 10 2008,11:53) Jesus the son of God was conceived of God/Holy Spirit Matthew 1:20?As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit
The Greek word for conceived has these meanings –
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's workNotice the second to last definition. Conceived of God means making Christ His son. That happened at His conception in Mary and not prior to this or at His baptism as you have implied before. Are you now going to tell us that prior to Christ’ s birth on Earth (in His supposed preexistant state) He was not God’s son?
You have still not explained by what form or nature did Christ preexist? You have not explained what happened to the preexistant memories, experiences and growth that happened to Christ.You rattle off scriptures in patterns that lead to dysfunctional and mysterious conclusions that serve no purpose other then abstract philosophy.
Hi martian,
Theological dictionaries are influenced by their authors bias. Concordances only reflect how men choose to translate.
I find it revealing that you will use dictionaries, concordances or lexicons when it supports your preconceived ideas and yet dismiss them when others use them to poiint out flaws in your doctrines.
Hi martian,
We need to use every tool that is available.
Nonetheless we do need to know their limitations.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
O.K. Gen explain these to me?
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Exzctly right. Good points.Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 11 2008,05:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
O.K. Gen explain these to me?
Peace and Love Mrs.
I have a;ready explained them and you ignored them. You do not understand the verses you quote.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,05:48) Quote (martian @ Mar. 11 2008,03:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,12:29) Quote (martian @ Mar. 10 2008,11:53) Jesus the son of God was conceived of God/Holy Spirit Matthew 1:20?As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit
The Greek word for conceived has these meanings –
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's workNotice the second to last definition. Conceived of God means making Christ His son. That happened at His conception in Mary and not prior to this or at His baptism as you have implied before. Are you now going to tell us that prior to Christ’ s birth on Earth (in His supposed preexistant state) He was not God’s son?
You have still not explained by what form or nature did Christ preexist? You have not explained what happened to the preexistant memories, experiences and growth that happened to Christ.You rattle off scriptures in patterns that lead to dysfunctional and mysterious conclusions that serve no purpose other then abstract philosophy.
Hi martian,
Theological dictionaries are influenced by their authors bias. Concordances only reflect how men choose to translate.
I find it revealing that you will use dictionaries, concordances or lexicons when it supports your preconceived ideas and yet dismiss them when others use them to poiint out flaws in your doctrines.
Hi martian,
We need to use every tool that is available.
Nonetheless we do need to know their limitations.
And what determines if a resource is valid or not. Coud it be your preconeived idea of doctrine?Quote (martian @ Mar. 11 2008,06:50) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 11 2008,05:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
O.K. Gen explain these to me?
Peace and Love Mrs.
I have a;ready explained them and you ignored them. You do not understand the verses you quote.
Hi martian,
More accurately you offered her your understanding.Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 11 2008,05:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
O.K. Gen explain these to me?
Peace and Love Mrs.
No matter if the verse is written in Hebrew or Greek, the Hebrews that wrote scripture wrote from the perspective of their Hebrew culture and concepts.
The concept of creation is not the abstract vision that we often think of it being.
The Hebrew word for create is “bara” which literally means to fatten as in making a cow or lamb fat. It carries the idea of completing and making ready or perfecting.You say –
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Response –
In what respect was Christ the firstborn?
Colossians 1:18?He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Revelation 1:5?and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Firstborn from the dead — That means he had to die before he could be the firstborn. You spoke of preeminence of Christ in the past. Christ is firstborn into preeminence because of his completing the plan of God for mankind. The first to actually do it.verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
Response –
Again this verse points to the focal point of creation. Without Christ, creation has no purpose. Everything in creation (including man) is brought into function and purpose through the life of Christ. It is through Christ that we live and have our being.verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Another verse speaking of preeminence of Christ.
He is before or in front of everything and because of Him all things continue to consist.Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
The centerpiece of God’s creation is not this planet. This universe is here to house God’s real purpose for creation, MAN. He is the first one to accomplish what God designed for mankind. He is the beginning of all those that are in God’s creation.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,07:15) Quote (martian @ Mar. 11 2008,06:50) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 11 2008,05:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 11 2008,05:15) lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus. IMO………gene
Why ignore scriptures? How do you explain when it says that Jesus was the first of all creation.Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …These says the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
O.K. Gen explain these to me?
Peace and Love Mrs.
I have a;ready explained them and you ignored them. You do not understand the verses you quote.
Hi martian,
More accurately you offered her your understanding.
I pointed to hebrew concepts rather then your prefernce of Greek philosophy.martain…….amen brother. Jesus is God the Father's perfect man, a finished image of Himself, which is the destiny of all mankind, brought about by the effectual working of God Himself.
peace to you and yours…………gene
Dear Gene,
You wrote:
Posted: Mar. 11 2008,05:15
——————————————————————————–
lightenup…….> please tell us what profit it would be to have produced a already perfect person, wipr out His memory have Him reborn and live a perfect life. What kind of example would that be to me or anyone else. NO, God brought forth a purely Human Man Only, with no advantage over anyone else, other then God was with him at birth. All who try to make Jesus different will never believe they can truly be exactly like Jesus, and without realizing it are denying the effectual working of the power of God in them and Jesus.IMO………gene
My response:
If Jesus was merely a perfect man then we could be, as you say “exactly like Jesus”, and in fact equal to him. If Jesus existed as a perfect son, His Father's only begotten son, from the beginning of creation, and then His Father gave Him a part in creating everything in heaven and on earth, and then that Son served the Father perfectly in a glorified state before He was sent, well, then we cannot be equal to Him, someone who is unique. The reason we can be like Him (not equal to but “like”) Christ is because everything He did, He did by faith. We too can do all things by faith in His Father if we also have faith in the begotten God, the only begotten God who before the foundation of the world was used in creating man, even you Gene.Acts 26:15-18
And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by FAITH IN ME.'
NASUMy faith is in Christ and His Father. My faith is in Christ who, in my understanding, is much more that a merely perfect man but the one who by faith in His Father, laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of HIS HANDS.
Matt 17:20-21
if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
NASUHe can say this because, in my understanding, He hung the moon let alone moved some mountains into place.
Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASUIn conclusion, my understanding is this:
the Son of God was the same before the foundation of the world as He was while in flesh and blood except of course He was within the limits of a mortal body and was born as a baby without knowledge of His past. He needed faith then, before the creation of the things on earth and in heaven, and He needed faith as a man to do anything pleasing to God.Heb 11:6-7
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
NASUAnd as you may know, true faith will produce good works.
James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
NASU
James 2:24-25
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NASUMay God through His Holy Spirit grant us unity in these message boards if it so be His will.
Hi,
It is interesting that those who espouse a trinity god are never seen in any other threads except those relating to the nature of God.
Perhaps to do so would acknowledge that truth is found in scripture?Hi LU,
Are you a mere woman?
He was, as a man, no different from you and I
SO THAT God could show His power in his weak human vessel.Romans 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.Hi Nick,
I am a mere woman, correct. I am a mere woman without a past existence and history before conception Jesus was a man but He was a man with a past existence and history. That is not the same, in fact, BIG, difference. However, He was born without memory of His past.Hi LU,
Did his origins have any impact on his nature, his mission or his ministry?
If they did we cannot follow him.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2008,11:27) Hi Nick,
I am a mere woman, correct. I am a mere woman without a past existence and history before conception Jesus was a man but He was a man with a past existence and history. That is not the same, in fact, BIG, difference. However, He was born without memory of His past.
Have a question for you, if Jesus did not have a memory of His past how could He say what He did inJohn 17:5″ And now, O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
He knew where He came from and knew what was at stake if He would fail. That is why He did not. Otherwise Him just being a mere man would have sinned. In every other aspect He was just like us.
Peace and Love Mrs.
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