The Trinity Doctrine

[seek and you will find]

First thing first. Jesus did exist before the world was.
John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God.
We need to understand that God is a Title. The Son was the Spokes-word of God in the old Testament. Nobody has seen or heard God. It is always the Son or an Angel speaking in the New Testament.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible…..
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.

verse 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.

So He is the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so He is first in all.

Rev. 3:14 .. These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Don't you think that explains it pretty much that Jesus was on earth before anything was?

Also in John 17:5 It says And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. He gave up that glory was crucified , died of our Sins and now sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty.

Is that explained enough for you? Believe me this not easy but once you get it you will not forget it.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…….God did not Kill Jesus and then rebirth him in Mary, He was simply in the Plan and will of GOD from the foundations of the earth. Peter Had it right when He said, Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the earth (BUT) was manifested (brought into existence) in our time. What would be the point in bringing a reincorinated being to earth, it would destract from showing what God could do in a ordinary human being who was exactly like us in every way, and that includes no preknowledge of any kind, Jesus grew and mantured exactily like we do he had no personal advantage except He was preordained by God, to do what he did, just as the prophets were preordained and God gave them as well as Jesus the power to do what He wanted done. All preexistencest and Trinitarians are in the same boat, they give Jesus advantages He never had, He was a born human being Just like us in ever way only predestened to do the work he did, just like the prophets were.

IMO….gene

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2008,05:30)

Nick…….God did not Kill Jesus and then rebirth him in Mary, He was simply in the Plan and will of GOD from the foundations of the earth. Peter Had it right when He said, Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the earth (BUT) was manifested (brought into existence) in our time. What would be the point in bringing a reincorinated being to earth, it would destract from showing what God could do in a ordinary human being who was exactly like us in every way, and that includes no preknowledge of any kind, Jesus grew and mantured exactily like we do he had no personal advantage except He was preordained by God, to do what he did, just as the prophets were preordained and God gave them as well as Jesus the power to do what He wanted done. All preexistencest and Trinitarians are in the same boat, they give Jesus advantages He never had, He was a born human being Just like us in ever way only predestened to do the work he did, just like the prophets were. IMO….gene

Gen You are so wrong, just before your Post I posted some scriptures, that you need to look at if you want to know the truth because I truly belief that is is the truth. Jesus did prexsisted His birth by the Virgin Maria. No doubt about it.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……Ask yourself who would have the most to gain by these false teachings of preexistence and Trinitarian concepts, it would be Satan of Course, He doesn't want us to believe God actually took a ordinary human being and enpowered him to live a perfect life. He wants us to believe Jesus had advantages over us by his preexistence and there by distract us from seeing, God took a simple human born child and Perfected Him into the man Jesus is today. You see if we see Jesus exactly like us we
might get the idea God can do it also to Us, which is exactly what God want us to realize. But Satan
doesn't want to realize that so He instigated these false teaching to divert form the reality of Jesus exact likeness of US.

IMO…….geen

[seek and you will find]

Gen You are ignoring Scriptures and that is not good. You are so wrong I will over and over state that until you get it. READ THE SCRIPTURES. You are not doing it. Ignorance will not get you anywhere, Gen.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Nephite]

Jesus absolutely exsisted prior to his earthly ministry… as did we all.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nephite @ Mar. 10 2008,05:56)

Jesus absolutely exsisted prior to his earthly ministry… as did we all.

Hi Nephite,
Really?
Sounds kinda new age to me.
Did we know each other then as I do not recall meeting you.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest [5319] in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

So he who existed became manifest in the revelation of the plan of God.

Number 5319
Transliteration:
phaneroo {fan-er-o'-o}
Word Origin:
from 5318
TDNT:
9:3,1244
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2, show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1

Total: 49
Definition:
to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
make actual and visible, realised
to make known by teaching
to become manifest, be made known
of a person
expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
who and what one is For Synonyms see entry 5812

The son of God not die before birth but a body was prepared for him, he was conceived of God and Mary and born a man of flesh. He gave up his original life completely at Calvary and was raised in the Spirit of God.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,06:59)

Hi Gene, 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest [5319] in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.   So he who existed became manifest in the revelation of the plan of God. Number 5319 Transliteration: phaneroo {fan-er-o'-o} Word Origin: from 5318 TDNT: 9:3,1244 Part of Speech: verb Usage in the KJV: make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2, show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1 Total: 49 Definition: to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way make actual and visible, realised to make known by teaching to become manifest, be made known of a person expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood who and what one is For Synonyms see entry 5812     The son of God not die before birth but a body was prepared for him, he was conceived of God and Mary and born a man of flesh. He gave up his original life completely at Calvary and was raised in the Spirit of God.

So all the experiances He had prior to his birth on Earth remained with him after his birth to Mary? Was He a super genius from birth? Did He have the memories of creating the worlds as some claim he did?

This original life you speak of, does that include the memories, experiances, consciousness, awareness and existance he had prior to his virgin birth?

For him to preexist he would have to have consciousness, awareness and the ability to think and interact with his surroundings. Because of this he would have to build memories and learn and be changed by those experiances. He would learn from those experiances and that learning would change his being and character. What happened to those changes that were wrought in him prior to the virgin birth?
You even ignore the clear scripture that states that He was concieved in Mary. Do you want to tell us now that He was concieved twice? Oh, I know you will have some made up idea that the conception only deals with His birth to a human body as if that does not make him different then us.

He gave up His originall life at calvary? I hope not. His “original life” as you call it is the reason why He is the perfect mediator and High Priest. He understans us and our weakness because he is like us, not because he gave that life up.

This is another perfect exampe of why I prefer the proof of functionality. As I have stated in previous posts when you have ridiculed that process, you conjure up doctrine supposedly based on scripture that serves no purpose and cannot function in the real world. The exact same thing as do the Trinitarians. You rely on a mystery that no one can really understand or explain to support your doctrine. You claim we are to follow Christ as our example and that He is the same as us and then go on to say that he is different then us.
You calim that Christ preexisted, implying that he was a self aware conscious individual during that time but cannot tell us what happened to all the consequinces (memory, growth ect) of being a self aware individual when he was born on Earth.

This is irrational. It is like saying there are round squares. Only the abstract philosophy of the Greeks would try to prove such and outlandish concept. In fact the roots of these beliefes are tied directly to dualism a form of gnosticism a Greek Philosophy. The dualist believed that nothing good could come of the natural realm and so made up a Christ that had to originate from another source to avoid being of the lower earthly realm.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Did Christ not die on Calvary and his spirit not leave him? [Mt27.50]
Did you expect the plan of God to always meet the functional rational ideas of men?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Rom11
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

[Lightenup]

Dear Gene,
You have a common question and I think that the Bible gives us insight in this.

You write:
God did not Kill Jesus and then rebirth him in Mary, He was simply in the Plan and will of GOD from the foundations of the earth. Peter Had it right when He said, Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the earth (BUT) was manifested (brought into existence) in our time. What would be the point in bringing a reincorinated being to earth, it would destract from showing what God could do in a ordinary human being who was exactly like us in every way, and that includes no preknowledge of any kind, Jesus grew and mantured exactily like we do he had no personal advantage except He was preordained by God, to do what he did, just as the prophets were preordained and God gave them as well as Jesus the power to do what He wanted done. All preexistencest and Trinitarians are in the same boat, they give Jesus advantages He never had, He was a born human being Just like us in ever way only predestened to do the work he did, just like the prophets were.

My response:

As a man, Jesus was like us in everyway except without sin.  However, to get like man, we are told that He had to empty Himself.  See the following verses in different versions below and pay particular attention to v.7:

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men.

The verses are not clear of what He emptied Himself of but apparently, it was whatever was necessary (my guess-His memories, His glory, His special abilities, and anything else which would have given Him advantage over the ordinary man) to come in the flesh and show us that it was possible to live an extraordinary life that is pleasing to God, His Father.

I do not believe that He was merely only a “plan” that was preordained.  I think that Jesus' role in the flesh was preordained but not His existence which was born of God as His only Son, the begotten God from the beginning, before the foundation of the world.  I also believe that the pre-incarnate Son of God was in active service before He emptied Himself.  If He was merely a plan of a future man then what would He have within Him that He could or needed to empty and how would He have done anything like that if He was just a plan.  As far as I know, I existed as part of God's plan before the foundation of the world, but I did not exist let alone empty myself of anything so that I was ready to be conceived and born of flesh.  Jesus did! He is different than man but became like man so as not to have advantage.  And of course, this is my opinion and my understanding.  I do not want to appear as dogmatic in anything because I know I am not God, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts necessarily.

Phil 2:4-9
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

Phil 2:6-8

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
KJV

Phil 2:5-8

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross!
(from New International Version)

Phil 2:5-8

5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient (even) unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
ASV

Thank you for your time and I look forward to a further discussion with you.

[NickHassan]

Good post LU

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,08:09)

Hi martian, Rom11 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Pschyco bable and cop out used when one cannot explain their docteine. This is the same tacic as used by the Trinitarians. Why should anyone believe you over thm. Two sides of the same coin. Both made up philosophies.

[martian]

Jesus the son of God was conceived of God/Holy Spirit

Matthew 1:20?As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit
The Greek word for conceived has these meanings –
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Notice the second to last definition. Conceived of God means making Christ His son. That happened at His conception in Mary and not prior to this or at His baptism as you have implied before. Are you now going to tell us that prior to Christ’ s birth on Earth (in His supposed preexistant state) He was not God’s son?
You have still not explained by what form or nature did Christ preexist? You have not explained what happened to the preexistant memories, experiences and growth that happened to Christ.

You rattle off scriptures in patterns that lead to dysfunctional and mysterious conclusions that serve no purpose other then abstract philosophy.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,07:56)

Hi martian, Did Christ not die on Calvary and his spirit not leave him? [Mt27.50] Did you expect the plan of God to always meet the functional rational ideas of men?

Yeah so what. Spirit means breath or wind. So Jesus gave his last breath and died. what does that have to do with preexistance?

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 10 2008,11:53)

Jesus the son of God was conceived of God/Holy Spirit Matthew 1:20?As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit The Greek word for conceived has these meanings – of men who fathered children to be born to be begotten of women giving birth to children metaph. to engender, cause to arise, excite in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone of God making Christ his son of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work Notice the second to last definition. Conceived of God means making Christ His son. That happened at His conception in Mary and not prior to this or at His baptism as you have implied before. Are you now going to tell us that prior to Christ’ s birth on Earth (in His supposed preexistant state) He was not God’s son? You have still not explained by what form or nature did Christ preexist?  You have not explained what happened to the preexistant memories, experiences and growth that happened to Christ. You rattle off scriptures in patterns that lead to dysfunctional and mysterious conclusions that serve no purpose other then abstract philosophy.

Hi martian,
Theological dictionaries are influenced by their authors bias. Concordances only reflect how men choose to translate.

[Lightenup]

Dear Martian
See my post at the top of page 1065 of this trinity forum for an explanation relating to your questions regarding the pre-existence of Christ.
I welcome your comments.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2008,16:23)

Dear Martian See my post at the top of page 1065 of this trinity forum for an explanation relating to your questions regarding the pre-existence of Christ. I welcome your comments.

I hae posted several times about Phil. The problem us that many Trinitarians and it appears you too have a wrong understanding of this portion of scripture based on a preconceived idea of doctrine. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existant Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –

Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction

God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.

Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own keindom.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,12:29)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 10 2008,11:53) Jesus the son of God was conceived of God/Holy Spirit Matthew 1:20?As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit The Greek word for conceived has these meanings – of men who fathered children to be born to be begotten of women giving birth to children metaph. to engender, cause to arise, excite in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone of God making Christ his son of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work Notice the second to last definition. Conceived of God means making Christ His son. That happened at His conception in Mary and not prior to this or at His baptism as you have implied before. Are you now going to tell us that prior to Christ’ s birth on Earth (in His supposed preexistant state) He was not God’s son? You have still not explained by what form or nature did Christ preexist?  You have not explained what happened to the preexistant memories, experiences and growth that happened to Christ. You rattle off scriptures in patterns that lead to dysfunctional and mysterious conclusions that serve no purpose other then abstract philosophy. Hi martian, Theological dictionaries are influenced by their authors bias. Concordances only reflect how men choose to translate.

I find it revealing that you will use dictionaries, concordances or lexicons when it supports your preconceived ideas and yet dismiss them when others use them to poiint out flaws in your doctrines.

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