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Hi Keeper,
You write:Jesus Christ (The Word) was always there
Micah 5:22But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
I write:
This would be a good verse to say that Jesus possibly always existed if the Hebrew word for everlasting was only applied to the Godhead throughout the Bible but it is not.The word “old” in this next verse is the same Hebrew word that was translated “everlasting” in the above verse:
Deut 32:77 Remember the days (of old), consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
KJV
And translated “in old time” as in this verse:
Josh 24:22 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood (in old time), even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.
KJV
And in this verse, translated as “old”:
Isa 51:99 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of (old). Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
KJVSo, as you can see, that merely saying that Jesus is “from everlasting” is not proof that He always existed.
I appreciate your posts.
Lightenup But there are other scriptures that clearly shows that Jesus did preexist before the world was and before Abraham.
I will just give you the scriptures and I hope you look them up.
First John 1:1…
Col. 1:15-18
verse 18 tells us that He had preeminence in all. He was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so He will be first in all. Preeminence means first in all.This is prove tho that Jesus preexsisted before becoming a man. Also how could you say that God send His Son into the world.. Where did He send Him from?
John 17:5 “And now Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”He was a spirit being and gave that up when He became a man. Died for us and was risen and sits at the right hand of the Father to come again.
Rev. 3:14
Proverbs 8:22-30 Please don't say this is wisdom, wisdom is what God is and not a person.Hope you will understand, I know how hard it is, I know how I used to deny it, but God kept putting these verses in front of me, until I had to except them. Just because the J.W. were the ones that first showed me, does not mean that it is not truth. Prove all things. I just did.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Dear Mrs.
You seem so concerned. I think you do not understand my position on Jesus' pre-existence. I am pasting a message that I posted in the pre-existence board for you:“Hi,
Yes, I believe that the only begotten God was serving the Most High God and praising Him also but not only in heaven but at times on earth as well. I believe that the begotten God had a much bigger role in creation than created angels. I believe that this next passage is speaking of the begotten God:Prov 8:22-31
22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 “From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 ” Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASU
The begotten God, if this passage is indeed about Him, then was the master workman and actively involved in creation.”See Mrs., I posted that on March 3rd. Unfortunately it is not clear enough for those that are struggling with the idea that Jesus was actively involved in creation prior to his birth as a man and some think that this passage is referring to merely a quality of God which is wisdom.
God bless and thank you for your concern, KHi LU,
And yet the truth lost by misappropriating these verses to Jesus is that order, and underlying it divine wisdom, is the hallmark of all of the creation of God. That is why there is no excuse for any observer of nature and, especially none for scientists who are privileged to discover the finest detail of this order.Hi Nick,
If you want to believe that God didn't always have wisdom, that is up to you. I remain in my position that the passage Prov 8:22-31 refers to Jesus. The Old Testament doesn't clearly explain where it speaks of Jesus because it was not time for Him to be revealed. We have to look to the New Testament for that. The New Testament does place Jesus as the one that the Father created through. Of course He used wisdom to create and continues to use wisdom today and that goes without saying. It was also using wisdom to create through Jesus, His son, His master workman.Hi Nick,
You wrote:
My point is that God is more than wisdom.
Jesus too is more than wisdom.I write:
I certainly agree with that. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. That happens sometimes. I thought your point was that Prov 8:22-31 didn't refer to Jesus. My bad.
Blessings!God has many attributes such as wisdom, truth, light.
Jesus is often called the truth, the light, and I think wisdom too.
Even we are called the light (of the world), salt of the earth, a name that is an attribute of God and Christ.But because Jesus is called after an attribute of God doesn't nullify the attribute that God has. If we are the light, then God is still the light. If we have a new spirit, then God is still the Spirit.
When we are born of God, I guess that we partake of the attributes of God in the nature we inherit. So it may not be a surprise that the secret name that we will be given may be a name of an attribute of God that we are created to shine.
Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.Even on earth we have names like Grace or Peter (rock) and Jesus was fond of renaming people to reflect the work that God was doing in them.
So if Jesus has first place in all things, then I don't have difficulty accepting that he may have names like Wisdom, Truth, Life, Light, etc. That is the Father's prerogative.
I also think that if one has an understanding of the meaning of the word “name”, then there may be less disagreements regarding Jesus and Wisdom/wisdom.
1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.So Jesus has become the attribute of wisdom from God. So that seems license enough for me to accept him as Wisdom.
The interesting thing regarding the wisdom scriptures in Isaiah is that it is speaking of an attribute, when wisdom is called a “she”. But then it goes on and says “Workman” which is not a she and “I was brought forth”. So I think it is talking of an attribute and then a person. But that is my opinion.
Perhaps we need to exercise wisdom with this one. If we say it is Jesus (and it should be taught as absolute truth) then we are making something too important when we are really guessing regardless of how compelling it may seem and no one in the New Testament taught this from what I can see, although that doesn't rule it out because they also didn't teach on many other things. But if we flatly refuse to consider the possibility, then we may be cutting ourselves off from seeing who Christ is by removing one of his names. In that case we would be seeing Jesus in a limited capacity albeit a limited capacity that is still far greater than our understanding.
So maybe if we exercise wisdom we should allow those who see Christ as Wisdom as a way that he is revealed to them, and for those who do not see it, then surely the fact that they would recognise him as the Truth, Life and the Way should be more than enough to understand who Christ is.
In the end both opinions at least can see that Jesus would have the attributes of wisdom, truth, life, light, etc. That should be enough and we should really rejoice about this than look for differences in the way we see our messiah.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 08 2008,02:16) Lightenup But there are other scriptures that clearly shows that Jesus did preexist before the world was and before Abraham.
I will just give you the scriptures and I hope you look them up.
First John 1:1…
Col. 1:15-18
verse 18 tells us that He had preeminence in all. He was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead, so He will be first in all. Preeminence means first in all.This is prove tho that Jesus preexsisted before becoming a man. Also how could you say that God send His Son into the world.. Where did He send Him from?
John 17:5 “And now Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”He was a spirit being and gave that up when He became a man. Died for us and was risen and sits at the right hand of the Father to come again.
Rev. 3:14
Proverbs 8:22-30 Please don't say this is wisdom, wisdom is what God is and not a person.Hope you will understand, I know how hard it is, I know how I used to deny it, but God kept putting these verses in front of me, until I had to except them. Just because the J.W. were the ones that first showed me, does not mean that it is not truth. Prove all things. I just did.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Where in 1 John 1:1 is Jesus name even mentioned?
Col. 1:15-18
15[Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
(Firstborn does not mean first created or existed. It means the first to complete God’s will for man.. this is defined in later verses)
16For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.
(It was by the intervention od Christ that creation has meaning. Without Christ work on the cross, nothing in this existence has meaning or purpose.)
17And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).
(The Greek does not use the term existed in this verse. It simple says He is before all things. He stands in front of all things giving them purpose and reason to exist. Everything is held together by Christ ministry and sacrifice.)
18He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].
(This verse clearly verse clearly shows in what way Jesus is called the “firstborn”. He is preeminent and stands first or before everyone and everything else because He is the first born from the dead. [not because He existed before everything] He is the first to accomplish that which God started out to create with Adam.)You say –
Also how could you say that God send His Son into the world.. Where did He send Him from?If God saying that He sent Jesus into the world proves that Jesus was in heaven then you must also conclude that We existed in heaven before hand.
21Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you! [Just] as the Father has sent Me forth, so I am sending you.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 08 2008,07:14) Dear Mrs.
You seem so concerned. I think you do not understand my position on Jesus' pre-existence. I am pasting a message that I posted in the pre-existence board for you:“Hi,
Yes, I believe that the only begotten God was serving the Most High God and praising Him also but not only in heaven but at times on earth as well. I believe that the begotten God had a much bigger role in creation than created angels. I believe that this next passage is speaking of the begotten God:Prov 8:22-31
22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 “From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 ” Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASU
The begotten God, if this passage is indeed about Him, then was the master workman and actively involved in creation.”See Mrs., I posted that on March 3rd. Unfortunately it is not clear enough for those that are struggling with the idea that Jesus was actively involved in creation prior to his birth as a man and some think that this passage is referring to merely a quality of God which is wisdom.
God bless and thank you for your concern, K
looks like that we are in unity as far as the preexsisting of Jesus is concerned. That makes me happy. It is not to often that this happens.
Proverb 22-30 has always been a scripture were many go wrong and we even agree on that. Hurray.
Bless you and yoursPrace and Love Mrs.
Hi martian,
Scripture tells us the monogenes son was sent INTO THE WORLD. [1Jn4]
He made it plain he had come from heaven and was returning there.Christ sent his brothers, drawn from the world, into the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2008,06:32) Hi martian,
Scripture tells us the monogenes son was sent INTO THE WORLD. [1Jn4]
He made it plain he had come from heaven and was returning there.Christ sent his brothers, drawn from the world, into the world.
Jesus says “as” I was sent. In the same manner as I was sent.
You ignore that to support your doctrine. You can't just make it up as you go along.Hi Martian,
God sent the monogenes Son into the world.
Having been given all authority Christ sent his human brothers into the world.Quote Hi martian,
I agree.
In the same manner.
Not from the same place but in the same manner.And a person cannot be sent from another unless he exists first.
Quote Hope you will understand, I know how hard it is, I know how I used to deny it, but God kept putting these verses in front of me, until I had to except them. Just because the J.W. were the ones that first showed me, does not mean that it is not truth. Prove all things. I just did. I didn't believe in the pre-existence of Christ for many years until I saw it in the scriptures. I never fought against it, I just didn't understand it. I think that's where the majority of Christians are; it's not that they are profusely against a particular doctrine, they just lack knowledge.
Quote In fact he told the Jews the Father was their God. He told the Jews that God was “his” Father. He said, ye are of your father the devil because ye do the works of the devil.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2008,06:32) Hi martian,
Scripture tells us the monogenes son was sent INTO THE WORLD. [1Jn4]
He made it plain he had come from heaven and was returning there.Christ sent his brothers, drawn from the world, into the world.
You got it right. Agree with you. We are in the World, but We are not of the world.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2008,06:47) Hi martian,
I agree.
In the same manner.
Not from the same place but in the same manner.
prove your statement that they were sent from different places. Otherwise it is just speculation
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