The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi Laurel,
No one is righteous in his own merits no matter how comfortable he or she may feel about obeying Torah.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paul…. said as concerning the law he was blamless, but yet went aroung killing Christians and haulling them of to Jail, so by the odedience to the Law sure didn't stop him from persecuting the church did it. He concedered Himself the greatest of all sinners, because He persecuted the church. He went on to say He concedered it all dung that he might win Christ. He also said by obedience of the law shall no one be justified before God. ” FOR BY (GRACE) ARE YOU SAVED AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELF, IT IS A (GIFT)of God, Righteousness is a (CREATION) that GOD performs in us, we cant go to the law and get it, and the creation of God in us is not againt the His comandments, but they are a creation in us God does. “For you are (CREATED) unto good works”, this (GRACE) that saves us operates through the medium of (FAITH IN GOD) and not FAITH in the law.

IMO…….gene

[NickHassan]

Amen Gene,
Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2008,16:21)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 01 2008,10:41) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 01 2008,10:34) Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2008,05:19) Hi martian, He was man, just like us. No infant has any memories and he was no different.   In heaven he was the likeness of God, a spirit being, the firstborn of the sons of God. So this likeness of God, This spirit being, this firstborn of the sons of God was not a conscious being? He was not alive? Did H give up his being to be born on Earth? You are still avoiding the question. If you cannot anser the question then I will categorize you with the Trinitarians whoes Christ is a mystery and unknowable. NOW STOP STOP  STOP GIVNG ME PLATITUDES AND ANSWER THE QUESTION. WAS JESUS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BIRTH ON EARTH AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT LIFE UPON HIS BIRTH ON EARTH. Hi Martian; John says that Jesus was in the world and the world was made by him so that pretty much states what his position was with God the Father.  He was begotten before the foundation of the world because he was with the Father before the foundation of the world.  He said he came not of his own “will” so he was a Son at the time he was sent because a Word alone does not have a “will”.  He said he was returning to where he was before so if you do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God, your only alternative is to believe he does not exist now either, but is a spirit again or the Word, which the bible says is God.  Read John Wrong interpretation of John.  Try again. Hi martian, So you are the final arbiter of truth? How is that functional for us?

I have posted the correct understanding of John several times. I claim it is correct because I folowed correct hermaneutical principles and it is functional and ties into the rest of scripture. To this day no one has been able to honestly refute what I said or offer a better supported understanding of John.
That I do not feel like posting stuff over and over and over does not mean it is not correct.

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2008,04:38)

Paul…. said as concerning the law he was blamless, but yet went aroung killing Christians and haulling them of to Jail, so by the odedience to the Law sure didn't stop him from persecuting the church did it. He concedered Himself the greatest of all sinners, because He persecuted the church. He went on to say He concedered it all dung that he might win Christ. He also said by obedience of the law shall no one be justified before God. ” FOR BY (GRACE) ARE YOU SAVED AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELF, IT IS A (GIFT)of God, Righteousness is a (CREATION) that GOD performs in us, we cant go to the law and get it, and the creation of God in us is not againt the His comandments, but they are a creation in us God does. “For you are (CREATED) unto good works”, this (GRACE) that saves us operates through the medium of (FAITH IN GOD) and not FAITH in the law. IMO…….gene

And what is faith? Please do not quote scripture to me, but just tell me how do I operate in faith or exercise faith.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2008,16:21)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 01 2008,10:41) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 01 2008,10:34) Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2008,05:19) Hi martian, He was man, just like us. No infant has any memories and he was no different.   In heaven he was the likeness of God, a spirit being, the firstborn of the sons of God. So this likeness of God, This spirit being, this firstborn of the sons of God was not a conscious being? He was not alive? Did H give up his being to be born on Earth? You are still avoiding the question. If you cannot anser the question then I will categorize you with the Trinitarians whoes Christ is a mystery and unknowable. NOW STOP STOP  STOP GIVNG ME PLATITUDES AND ANSWER THE QUESTION. WAS JESUS ALIVE BEFORE HIS BIRTH ON EARTH AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT LIFE UPON HIS BIRTH ON EARTH. Hi Martian; John says that Jesus was in the world and the world was made by him so that pretty much states what his position was with God the Father.  He was begotten before the foundation of the world because he was with the Father before the foundation of the world.  He said he came not of his own “will” so he was a Son at the time he was sent because a Word alone does not have a “will”.  He said he was returning to where he was before so if you do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God, your only alternative is to believe he does not exist now either, but is a spirit again or the Word, which the bible says is God.  Read John Wrong interpretation of John.  Try again. Hi martian, So you are the final arbiter of truth? How is that functional for us?

The finale arbiter of truth is the plan and character of God. It is not scripture because, as is clearly shown on these sites, everyone thinks their interpretation is right.
If one can agree on general attributes of God both physically and character and if one can agree on a general plan of God for man, all doctrine should work within that plan without contradicting the character or attributes of God.

Because it is very very obvious that we are to know our saviour no doctrine should be shrouded in mystery. You have implied this many times with WJ, yet I ask you simple questions about the nature of Jesus prior to his birth on Earth and you avoid them.
You say that christ was an infant and had no memories. Mr Steve says that He created the world. that certainly seems like a conscious being to me. As a conscious being He would have had memories of his creative work. What happened to them when He was born of Mary? Did the being of Christ split upon his human conception and part stay in heaven ready to rejoin later and part come to Earth with no memories of his former self?
You have promoted this doctrine of a preexistand Christ. Please explain it.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)

Hi martian, You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?   Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways. Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.

Just like the gnostic triitarian mystery doctrine. The same verse trinitarians use when they cannot explain their doctrine. Talk about disfunctional.
If we ae not able to understand the plan of God, then how can we follow it. That is just silliness.
AND yes I demand that truth fit within the plan of God and do not contradict God's attributes.
Always when the Trinitarians get pushed to explain they fall back on the old mystery dodge. Seems you do the same.
You used to have some cresibility with me, but if you continue this mystery doctrine you will lose that.

I suspect you hold onto this silliness because you cannot fathom Jesus coming as a mere man without some extroardinary pre-heritage to overcome the supposed inherited sin doctrine. Another false doctrine. Ont lie to cover another and the tangled web continues to engulf you. You begin to sound more and more like those mystery doctrin trinitarians.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Do we only obey what we can understand?
Then faith has no meaning.

Heb11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The opposite is true.

Mt11
But wisdom is justified of her children.

The origins of Christ have no influence on his resolution of man's problem.
He had to be a son of man, taken as an unblemished lamb from the flock, to be a suitable sacrifice

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,06:57)

Hi Martian, Do we only obey what we can understand? Then faith has no meaning.     Heb11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The opposite is true. Mt11 But wisdom is justified of her children. The origins of Christ have no influence on his resolution of man's problem. He had to be a son of man, taken as an unblemished lamb from the flock, to be a suitable sacrifice

You error because you do not understand faith. You quote scripture without really understanding. Faith literally means to work toward God’s will. In other words to work with God to accomplish His will in you and others.
How can you work toward something you cannot understand?
God’s entire plan hinges on us becoming one with Him and knowing Him. In order for us to do this He has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. (among other things) You have opened the door of doubt because you make Jesus different then the rest of man. No matter how you claim he is the same, a preexistance makes him different. Especially when you cannot explain the nature of that preexistance.
There are certainly some things we will not understand about God until we get to the other side, however knowing Christ is not one of them. In fact knowing Christ is fundemental to the follower.

You say –
The origins of Christ have no influence on his resolution of man's problem.
Response –
That is simply speculation on your part. If you do not know the nature of Christ’s preexistance, how can you say how it has influenced his life after his conception.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
He was like to us in all ways except sin.
If you must always understand then you will be unlikely to always obey

“You MUST BE born again”

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,08:16)

Hi martian, He was like to us in all ways except sin. If you must always understand then you will be unlikely to always obey “You MUST BE born again”

So have you changed your mind? You now say he was like us in all ways, so either he did not preexist or all of us did.
There is nothing in your preexistance doctrine to obey, so what are you talking about? As I said a non functional doctrine, just like the dual nature doctrine. There is nothing to work toward.

As to your comment that you must be born again, I see no rason for it. Are you suggesting that I am not born again?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
A man just like us.
His origins are another matter and we should just believe what he says about them.
Satisfying logic and reason may not be possible.  

If you needed to understand what being born again meant before you obeyed the command then you probably would not do so.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
This thread is about the hypothetical trinity and other threads are better to consider this matter.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,08:52)

Hi martian, A man just like us. His origins are another matter and we should just believe what he says about them. Satisfying logic and reason may not be possible.   If you needed to understand what being born again meant before you obeyed the command then you probably would not do so.

That would be true if you knew what he said about his origins. I do not think you do.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,09:07)

Hi martian, This thread is about the hypothetical trinity and other threads are better to consider this matter.

What ar you talking about? Born again theology or preexistance?
Preexistance is one of the primary tennants of trinity theory and I did not bring up born again, you did.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Trinity theory says that Christ was not another being but God in flesh.
So Christ was another being and was used by God as a vessel but was not the God within himself.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 03 2008,01:19)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2008,04:38) Paul…. said as concerning the law he was blamless, but yet went aroung killing Christians and haulling them of to Jail, so by the odedience to the Law sure didn't stop him from persecuting the church did it. He concedered Himself the greatest of all sinners, because He persecuted the church. He went on to say He concedered it all dung that he might win Christ. He also said by obedience of the law shall no one be justified before God. ” FOR BY (GRACE) ARE YOU SAVED AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELF, IT IS A (GIFT)of God, Righteousness is a (CREATION) that GOD performs in us, we cant go to the law and get it, and the creation of God in us is not againt the His comandments, but they are a creation in us God does. “For you are (CREATED) unto good works”, this (GRACE) that saves us operates through the medium of (FAITH IN GOD) and not FAITH in the law. IMO…….gene And what is faith?  Please do not quote scripture to me, but just tell me how do I operate in faith or exercise faith.

martian…… this post was not directed to you, it was directed to Laruel.

But the definition of Faith as given in Hebrews, > Faith is the substence of things hoped for, the (EVIDENCE) of things not seen. If our Faith doesn't have the (evidence ) or proof of the invisible God, it's not real faith, it's just a supposition basied on assumptions, with no real proof. True Faith requires real interaction between a person and his GOD.

IMO…….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)

Hi martian, You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?   Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways. Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.

This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!

Gotta run!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
No.
Trinity believers cannot find their doctrine taught anywhere in scripture.

[Author]

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