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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,20:24) Hi WJ,
No.
Trinity believers cannot find their doctrine taught anywhere in scripture.
I have to agree with WJ on tis one. You cannot find your theory in scripture either.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,09:57) Hi martian,
Trinity theory says that Christ was not another being but God in flesh.
So Christ was another being and was used by God as a vessel but was not the God within himself.
By your saying “anothr being” you are starting to sound like the Trinitarians that make Christ other then human. Christ was human. The building blocks of his conception brought about a human being. because of this we can extrapolate that the building blocks were themself human in nature. To be born human there is required human egg human sperm and conception. Neither the egg or the sprm aer viable species on their own and are not a conscious intity. Unless you are going to change the nature of the human building blocks you cannot say that the male part of Jesus preexisted in some form and then became a sperm. Not only is that not rational it serves no practical purpose within God's plan.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,09:57) Hi martian,
Trinity theory says that Christ was not another being but God in flesh.
So Christ was another being and was used by God as a vessel but was not the God within himself.
It seems you are stuck in that old Calvinistic dogma of inherited sin. this could explain much. If you believe all man since Adam have inherited sin then you would need some excape for Christ to be born human and avoid that inherited proble, ie – his diffrent origin.
The problem is that the inherited sin theory is bogus and thre is no need for another lie to cover that one.Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
Quote Mr. Steve…..> Who did come of their own Will. Were you born of your own will, And while a word alone doesen't have a will, it certainly came from a Will, and it is connected to the will of the person who spoke it. IMO……gene
God gave his son for the sins of the whole world. It is not God's will that any perish. Hence, God draws all men unto the son. Those who receive him are born again. Those who cannot see the truth are blind and love darkness rather than light.
Quote (martian @ Mar. 04 2008,02:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,09:57) Hi martian,
Trinity theory says that Christ was not another being but God in flesh.
So Christ was another being and was used by God as a vessel but was not the God within himself.
It seems you are stuck in that old Calvinistic dogma of inherited sin. this could explain much. If you believe all man since Adam have inherited sin then you would need some excape for Christ to be born human and avoid that inherited proble, ie – his diffrent origin.
The problem is that the inherited sin theory is bogus and thre is no need for another lie to cover that one.
Hi martian,
Once again you show little evidence that you have have been listening to others here.
He was born a son of Adam through Mary and he overcame sin in the flesh.
We follow the overcomer.Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,04:36) Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
mr steveNo my friend, you are diverting the conversation to what Trinitarians believe.
Trintitarians believe he was in the form of God as Phil 2 and Jn 1:1 clearly shows.
Arians like yourself believe that he was a man before he was born a man.
A man is not a man unless he is Spirit/Soul in a flesh body.
Yeshua was as the Father as Spirit before he came in the flesh.
His essence and substance was and is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:2.
Jesus was not a man in heaven my friend. That would make him like martian says, something other than we are.
Men are not men without a body of flesh.
Hence his dual nature.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/983_what_is_the_hypostatic_union/
Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,04:36)
Quote
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
mr steve
No my friend, you are diverting the conversation to what Trinitarians believe.
Trintitarians believe he was in the form of God as Phil 2 and Jn 1:1 clearly shows.
Arians like yourself believe that he was a man before he was born a man.
A man is not a man unless he is Spirit/Soul in a flesh body.
Yeshua was as the Father as Spirit before he came in the flesh.
His essence and substance was and is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:2.
Jesus was not a man in heaven my friend. That would make him like martian says, something other than we are.
Men are not men without a body of flesh.
Hence his dual nature.
Hi WJ;
Where did I say he was a man prior to being a man? I said he was with God whom he refers to as his Father before coming to earth. I believe what Jesus said. At that time he was in the form of God, the express image, etc.
You believe he was in the form of God, but was not the Son of God, but was the Word which is God. So you believe he was God himself actually but you are unaware of it.
WJ;
I checked out the site you referred me to. They believe that God became a man, not that the Son of God existed with God and was sent as taught by Jesus. Below is my post to them.
When you say, “God was glorious long before he became a man in Jesus. But we are human beings, and unincarnate deity doesn’t connect with us in the same way as the God who became human,” how is your conclusion inconsistent with what Jesus taught? Jesus said he was sent from God who was his Father, not that he was the Father that became a Son. You do greatly err.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,09:50) Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,04:36)
Quote
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
mr steve
No my friend, you are diverting the conversation to what Trinitarians believe.
Trintitarians believe he was in the form of God as Phil 2 and Jn 1:1 clearly shows.
Arians like yourself believe that he was a man before he was born a man.
A man is not a man unless he is Spirit/Soul in a flesh body.
Yeshua was as the Father as Spirit before he came in the flesh.
His essence and substance was and is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:2.
Jesus was not a man in heaven my friend. That would make him like martian says, something other than we are.
Men are not men without a body of flesh.
Hence his dual nature.
Hi WJ;
Where did I say he was a man prior to being a man? I said he was with God whom he refers to as his Father before coming to earth. I believe what Jesus said. At that time he was in the form of God, the express image, etc.
You believe he was in the form of God, but was not the Son of God, but was the Word which is God. So you believe he was God himself actually but you are unaware of it.
mr steveWhen Jesus spoke of being with the Father he was speaking of his exixtence before he was born a man.
Therfore he was speaking of his existence before he was a Son.
Jesus came in the flesh and became a man, therefore becoming the second Adam, a Son of God, just as Adam was.
Adam was created a Son of God when his body was created and God breathed into him and he became a Spirit/living soul.
Jesus Spirit, the Eternal Life that was with the Father, 1 Jn 1:1-3, the Word which is and was God that came in the flesh. Jn 1:1, Jn 1:14, and took on the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2, therefore becoming the Son of God the second Adam without sin.
This is why he is called the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God, because his Spirit is God. The Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8
There is no scripture that calls Yeshua the Son of God until the Angel spoke to Mary.
He was in the form of God, just as the Father, same essence, same substance.
There is no scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning.
He was not the Father but is and was one God with the Father as Jn 1:1 states.
Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Who is the Eternal life? 1 Jn 1:1-3 clarifys Johns meaning in Jn 1:1, Jn 20:20, Jn 17:3, Jn 5:20.
Just as you are not your Father but you are a human as your Father is, same substance and make up of what a human is.
Jesus was not as the Angels. Angels are Spirit beings but not of the same essence as Yeshua and the Father.
God is a title of the nature of a being. Yeshua is and was true God as the Father, one with him and the Spirit who now dwells in a body.
You say…
Quote
So you believe he was God himself actually but you are unaware of it.Your implication that I believe Yeshua is the Father is a lie and misrepresentation.
And your lack of understanding of the nature of a being is evident.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2008,09:25) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,04:36) Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
mr steveNo my friend, you are diverting the conversation to what Trinitarians believe.
Trintitarians believe he was in the form of God as Phil 2 and Jn 1:1 clearly shows.
Arians like yourself believe that he was a man before he was born a man.
A man is not a man unless he is Spirit/Soul in a flesh body.
Yeshua was as the Father as Spirit before he came in the flesh.
His essence and substance was and is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:2.
Jesus was not a man in heaven my friend. That would make him like martian says, something other than we are.
Men are not men without a body of flesh.
Hence his dual nature.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/983_what_is_the_hypostatic_union/
Hi WJ,God did not become a man.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?Jesus is still the Son of Man who will return to judge men.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2008,11:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2008,09:25) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 04 2008,04:36) Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2008,04:52)
Hi martian,
You demand that the plan of God satisfies human logic and reasoning as the basis of truth?
Scriptural truth is truth even if it seems to defy our understanding because God's ways are greater than our ways.
Jesus explained his past presence with God in heaven and we have to accept that truth even if it cannot be yet fully grasped.This is what Trinitarians are accused of!!!
Trinitarians believe that the Father and Son eternally co-existed. That's how the doctrine is taught today. However, when the doctrine was first expressed in the Nicean Creed, and is still read in the churches every service today, it reads, “God from God, light from light, true God from true God…” Hence, even the original doctrine of the trinity did not espouse that the father and son eternally co-existed, only that they existed together before the foundation of the world. Christ came out from God the father in eternity past. Precisely when is not revealed, only that he was with the father before all things and without him was nothing made that was made.
mr steveNo my friend, you are diverting the conversation to what Trinitarians believe.
Trintitarians believe he was in the form of God as Phil 2 and Jn 1:1 clearly shows.
Arians like yourself believe that he was a man before he was born a man.
A man is not a man unless he is Spirit/Soul in a flesh body.
Yeshua was as the Father as Spirit before he came in the flesh.
His essence and substance was and is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:2.
Jesus was not a man in heaven my friend. That would make him like martian says, something other than we are.
Men are not men without a body of flesh.
Hence his dual nature.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/983_what_is_the_hypostatic_union/
Hi WJ,God did not become a man.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?Jesus is still the Son of Man who will return to judge men.
NHNo Yeshua was not the Father becoming a man.
So what was Jesus before he came in the flesh? A man?
Jn 1:1 says he was God, you do believe the scriptures dont you.
You havnt answered martians questions. What form was he?
Your belief is more of a mystery than the acclaimed accusations of the Trinitarians.
I know what form he was and is and have scriptures to support it.
You have none.
Hi WJ,
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?So scripture says God is not a man.
God is not a son of man, so not The Son of man.
So how can you say our living God is the son of Man?Christ was in the form of God.
Surely you know the form of God?Yet the Son is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Hi WJ,
You say
“When Jesus spoke of being with the Father he was speaking of his exixtence before he was born a man.Therfore he was speaking of his existence before he was a Son. “
Why?
Are all God's sons men?Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.Hi WJ,
You say
“This is why he is called the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God, because his Spirit is God. The Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8″So at Calvary God left him?
Mt 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.So these scriptures did not apply to him?
Psalm 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.Psalm 94:14
For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2008,11:37) Hi WJ, Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?So scripture says God is not a man.
God is not a son of man, so not The Son of man.
So how can you say our living God is the son of Man?Christ was in the form of God.
Surely you know the form of God?Yet the Son is the same yesterday, today and forever.
NHYes the Eternal Spirit of Jesus who was and is the ressurection and the life, is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning of all things and the end of all things as we presently know it.
Was not God in the flesh?
I simply believe the scriptures and you dont!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2008,11:44) Hi WJ,
You say
“When Jesus spoke of being with the Father he was speaking of his exixtence before he was born a man.Therfore he was speaking of his existence before he was a Son. “
Why?
Are all God's sons men?Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
NHAmbiguous scripture.
You believe Angels can have sex with flesh and produce Giants, which is contrary to the order God set in motion in the beginning, (every seed bearing seed after its own kind).
No creature has ever been able to cross breed with a human.
That which is Spirit is Spirit, that which is flesh is flesh.
Many scholars believe the Sons of God in Gen 6 were the Sons of Seth who had corrupted themselves.
Even so, You put Jesus in the same class of being as an Angel, which is what the JWS believe.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2008,11:54) Hi WJ,
You say
“This is why he is called the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God, because his Spirit is God. The Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8″
So at Calvary God left him?Mt 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.So these scriptures did not apply to him?
Psalm 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.Psalm 94:14
For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
NHThe only Spirit Jesus gave up was the life that was in his flesh.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
He spilled his blood and gave his life as a sacrifice for us.
The Eternal Spirit of Jesus did not die but went to hades.
Jesus said…
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn 10:17,18And so Jesus…
uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. Mk 15:37
How could the Eternal Spirit of Yeshua die? He had Eternal life, for he was and is the “Eternal life”, The Resurrection and the life.
This is why Yeshua said…
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Quote No Yeshua was not the Father becoming a man. So what was Jesus before he came in the flesh? A man?
Jn 1:1 says he was God, you do believe the scriptures dont you.
You havnt answered martians questions. What form was he?
Your belief is more of a mystery than the acclaimed accusations of the Trinitarians.
I know what form he was and is and have scriptures to support it.
You have none.
Hi WJ;
You have stated the Jesus was not the Father. I agree.
You have stated by John 1:1 that he was God. However, you state that he was not the Father, so you have another that is God. I contend that he was the Son of God and was called God by God the Father. Hebrews says, unto the “Son” he saith thy throne oh God… However, John 1:1 does not depict the relationship that the Son has with the Father. The rest of John is necessary to understand that relationship.
Jesus said all things were given to him of his Father including the very word he preached, which he said was not his but his who sent him. There are many other scriptures that are akin to that scripture which show that the Father gave to the Son, never the opposite.
When you boil this all down we see God gloriously manifested himself through the Son. Since when? In the beginning… as you love to quote.
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